Brilliant post Wageslave and probably echoes the thoughts of all pilots not having come through the present P2F system.
But, there is a chance it could happen. It's beginning to happen in the US. So, how can we poll pilots on here to see if they want the CAA to follow the FAA's lead? Is there a way we can get all UK pilots to sign a petition requesting that this is what the CAA should do?

Anyone can create an e-petition on the direct.gov.uk website. However this was done for the EU FTL campaign and despite getting tens of thousands of signatures did not reach the magic 100,000 required for a commons debate.

It won't make a shred of difference either way though. I've long thought it is completely ridiculous that the CAA is entirely funded by those it exists to regulate. How this cannot be a conflict of interest is anyone's guess, but as long as it is the case they are unlikely to take decisions which could be viewed as anti-business (namely anything that is likely to increase labour costs for airlines). The only thing likely to change that is the smoking hole, which if you remember is exactly what it took in the USA.

Nevertheless I admire the sentiment and I'd sure as hell sign it.

I agree that a US style 1500 hrs limit would slow the que of people ready to pay for a rhs. Force a raising of conditions.

I also agree that the only way this will happen will be via a major accident.
I hope it never happens!
I know it is possible for anyone to make a mistake, but I am also aware of several major cadet led incidents, ie, they just didn't have the experience or knowledge to avoid a relatively simple and obvious error.

I used to work for a company whose training captains said that the company was scared the most at the prospect of a major accident. It would simply be the end of the company.
Unfortunately since then the skill standards have fallen with the introduction of the MPL. Mistakes have already been made by these volunteers. Computer skills and enthusiasm are ok but there is a major lack of aircraft handling skills. That came from the training captains too.

I was under the impression that the Insurance Companies had some say in the minimum qualification/experience levels of pilot employees. Surely the growing influx of inexperienced/partially trained cadets is a bit like replacing a Micra with a Ferrari and failing to inform Admiral!

I think the insurance goes off the captains hours. I could be wrong

I think you are right Guy, but when phrases like "one man band" and "accidents waiting to happen" are being bandied around it's about time Insurance Companies took another look at their risks.

'Is there a way we can get all UK pilots to sign a petition requesting that this is what the CAA should do?'

Of course it's possible by the means of a strong, united union that represents ALL commercial pilots - not a mamby-pamby 'association' that represents certain vestige interests, which has never and never will have any intention of growing any teeth to further the T&Cs of the UK's professional pilots.

A union that goes to the employers en masse, promising that if nothng gets done about P2F and T&Cs, the entire UK airline industry stops on Monday morning, is the only way anything will change.

It will, of course, not happen and it is why these pages will continue to be filled by those bemoaning the current, sinking situation in which this profession finds itself, and prepared to do nothing about it.

It is only the bottom line that the accountants and managers of the airline businesses understand at that is where any action has to hit, and hit hard.

But the FAA acted without the pressure of any pilot association. It was decision based on safety. Their industry was in the same shape as ours, maybe a little worse but now the FAA are bragging that their pilots "are the most qualified and best trained in the world"!
So, they had fatal accidents one might argue but, as I said previous its better to learn from someone else's mistakes. Especially if that mistake is 100 fatalities!!!
I hope the CAA read these threads. Come on CAA show some backbone and stop being pressured by airline management.

The problem is the USA has the General Aviation infrastructure to allow their pilots to gain 1500hrs before sitting in an airliner. I am not sure the UK has that level of backbone in the GA sector to support it. I would be happy to see the magic number of 700hrs return, that's a start at least.

While I agree with the above and would like to see like most of you a model where experience is more rewarded, I think we might wait a long time before seeing the CAA doing something (they are to busy converting licences to EASA!).
Before trying to change the whole industry, we should aim to maintain/improve our own T&Cs in our own airline.
It should not be possible to decrease salaries and remove benefits such as fixed rosters when the airline is highly profitable.
Are the new UK contracts been made in correlation with BALPA?

I would like to see something like a 700hr requirement and mix of where the operator can recruit from, with jobs bring advertised.

I went and got some experience in GA which is AOC piston work, write / update our manuals with my boss and know the regs etc. also doing I.T systems and software development.

All of this unpaid, whilst holding a day job down, to build a file to take to airline interview with recommendations and sell my I.T skills.

Trained modular, no debt. 4 years applying, writing letters to airlines etc most weeks.

CTC are a road block for all in similar position to what I described above and actually I realised going off and doing the above, has not helped. But i have got a good grounding that I otherwise wouldn't have had.

The jobs are not advertised as CTC have contracts with the likes of EZY and a large number of other operators to feed in their flexi crew cadets from flight school in.

It would be fair if the low hour experienced job was advertised. All could apply directly, against base requirements with level playing field. This would mean the CTC cadet would also have to apply at the end of training. This will never happen, especially with the MPL being around, that requires partner airlines. I would like BALPA and specifically the regulators to step up and do as much as they can to change things in this area and the T&C's. Then maybe I would have a chance of getting an interview :)

turbine100, a reminder (in case you've forgotten) that this is a capitalist Europe. CTC's (and PARC's) monopoly of UK pilot recruitment is a direct result of old and accomplished former Airline Pilots becoming management blood suckers and creating recruitment systems which pocket them every penny in a market absolutely full of young 20 some things who want to fly a jet. It's the same in any industry and within most big corps. Those who become in charge will suck those at the bottom dry and nothing (not even the law or regulation) can stop them. It matters not a shred who gets affected by their decisions.

GEKO:

Although there were negotiations, the current new entrant contract is a unilateral move by Easyjet and is now the subject of a 'failure to agree' process.

Superpilot

Generally I agree with you.

You dont need to remind me. My proper career of I.T which happens to be a global role in which I travel a lot, I see exactly how businesses work globally.

Exception being that my own proper industry of I.T is not as screwed up as aviation when it comes to recruitment. We dont pay to attend interviews or training courses. And as you mentioned, people in aviation trying to get in are taken advantage of.

Whilst I agree that it is an injustice that modular pilots get such a rough deal. Integrated courses do provide the airline with something that you cannot offer. You mention your 700 hours which is a nice number and obviously you have decent experience now, problem is the airline has no idea how that experience came about. They don't have any information about how many lessons it took for you to go solo, they cant see which areas of training you struggled in (obviously you may indeed have the perfect record - but they are none the wiser).

On the otherhand, the airline can see all of this information about the integrated cadet. As an ex-integrated cadet, we were under immense pressure throughout training to pass each detail first time, if we failed just one lesson, there would be a review procedure which would examine how to proceed. This may be a simple rerun of the lesson, or perhaps a re-training package or at worst, removal from the program. All of this will go into your final report and will have an impact on what airlines think of you and whether they will indeed take you. 2 first time passes just simply isn't enough information.

Throughout the training, nothing concerns the cadets anything more than what may get written down in their final report. We are absolutely expected to do everything in the minimum hours. Imagine if modular cadets were told they must complete the PPL in 45 hours or else they would never get employed with an airline. The pressure would be enormous.

Sorry if that is a hard pill to swallow but it is the reason why the airlines favour the cadets over the modular students, they are a known quantity. Rather than the students abilities (as everyone has the piece of paper that says they can instrument fly a multi-engine aircraft to a professional standard), rather the information they can gain about them - the knowledge they have had training discipline drilled into them from the start through a culture of fear, of failure and 'review' - that allows them to make an easier decision.

Nope, it is because you guys are willing to fly for peanuts, pay all your training cost and accept a pay deal only a fraction of what was the industry standard only a little while ago.

The airline does not care that you are a cadet or modular, they just found a willing pariticipant to use you as a pawn to erode the T&C's for a generation.

I pity you, just don't come here 5 years from now when you are on 30K flying the left seat working your butt of complaining here how sh!t the industry has become.

Your argument does not hold water, if you guys were that good, why do you get paid 20K less a year compared to non cadets?

The only reason you guys are there is because you are cheaper and you are willing to prostitute yourself for a flying apprenticeship, I won't even call it a job. The only reason you have lasted as long is that some senior crewmembers/trainers are participating in this scam.

You are going to look back when you are looking to buy a house and start a family and you will realise that you can't as you yourself have been responsible for destroying a good career.

Well done, the sad bit is, there are hundreds like you waiting to undercut our terms, fly for free, pay for their own training just to get into that right seat.

Misterman, that's bullsh*t!

Explain to me then why dozens of extremely well trained military pilots with thousands of hours and a detailed training record you could only dream of from the likes of CTC etc, are overlooked for 250hour integrated course ab initios???

It's the incestuous relationship between training school and loco carrier and the fact that ex mil aren't stupid enough to be pushed around by loco airlines for sh*t money and no T&CSs. The locos know that when you have a £100,000 debt to honour you'll take anything they offer you. I'm sorry if I offend any integrated flexicrew but the "pressure" misterman talks about, multiply that by 10 and you'll understand what ex mil pilots have all experienced. Plus they are trained officers and used to being managers.

I know an ex mil pilot, thousands of hours, both Fast Jet and ME, who even offered to pay for his own TR with CTC but was told "we only take ab initios with no experience." Now, why would that be?

The Wannabe Zombie Army are unstoppable, cannot be reasoned with and they are legion every year.

The consequences are predictable and observable.

They blame the system.

The military aircrew argument is difficult (I am ex-mil myself). A substantial number of easyJet's trainers are ex-military and that would tell its own story in terms of their basic competence. However, for years military pilots walked into the top jobs and a number did themselves no favours by pouring scorn on those pilots who had never flown in the military and 'only' had commercial experience. Sadly, some formed an almost masonic relationship with their fellow ex-military colleagues and all the top jobs went to their mates. There is no doubt they are on the whole very capable people, but times have changed and it is now incredibly difficult for an ex-military pilot to gain employment in the civil world. This is a temporary blip, and I believe that in the next year or two a more equitable situation will arise. Nonetheless, I do not foresee a return to the 'old days' with jobs for the boys. What I do see is that ex-military pilots will have to pay for type ratings like everyone else and pay some serious money to get their feet on the ladder. What is clearly ludicrous is the current situation of taking countless young and inexperienced pilots who can barely land the aircraft instead of a wider recruitment policy embracing the best of all parts of the industry.

Misterman, I so disagree about integrated pilots being better, this is just the brain washing they tell you. I am from the modular route funded and paid for by myself. I didn't go for the integrated because I wanted to work and pay for my licence. I attended very good schools all within a 2 year period, first time passes on everything. You can prove to any employer about your training, ie hours and pass record. I work for a major airline as a captain and see both modular and integrated FOs join. You cannot hand on heart tell them apart, there are good and bad from both sides.

The only reason easyjet etc take integrated pilots form CTC is because they can be exploited. Who in their right mind would take on a £100,000 loan in order to get a unsecured job on less that £20,000? Baffles me. It's about time the caa and balpa sort this exploitation of pilots out. Experience counts for nothing now and I can see in the next decade pilots being paid less that bus drivers unless people act now.

Just to provide a bit of balance here, I don't doubt that most ex military pilots are highly capable and very switched on. That said, some of the most difficult, headstrong, awkward people I have ever flown with are ex military. Some of them just seem unable to let go of their military ways and run the day essentially as a single pilot operation with little or no CRM on display. I can think of a few choice examples in the easyjet training department which were notorious amongst the first officer community whilst I was there.

Flown with some absolutely fab ex mil people too of course. Point is, just because you flew a fast jet once upon a time doesn't mean you'll be well suited to a multi crew commercial operation.

Surely it's the same for integrated/modular. You'll get good and bad from both... Unfortunately however the one thing you can't escape is that these days your chances of employment with the major airlines are greater if you choose to go integrated.

I feel people may have missed my point somewhat. Everyone seems to have read that post as if I was saying integrated cadets were better pilots than modular students. I urge you to re-read this and perhaps it will become apparent that this is not what I meant. Just to emphasise the point about the training record and its merits over what is likely to be a fairly sporadic report from other flying schools (although I am assuming this).

I wasn't comparing the training records of ex-mil pilots to those of integrated cadets just simply to the low houred GA pilots. My post was simply addressing that of turbines directly. I agree it is an unfair situation and I have been lucky.

I perhaps worded it badly, I won't edit my original post as I have seen on here how that allows people to change their arguments casually. Perhaps I should have said that this was 'one of the reasons'.

It is indeed a shame some are willing to work for peanuts but others have put plenty of input into this argument so will leave that to others.

If anything, I don't give a good view of the integrated schools - rather them being a place where people fear to maintain their perfect records or risk the waste of the premium paid to join such a course.

I am sure the majority would have enjoyed the training more doing it differently, the reality is that many cadets will have often found it a bit of a chore.

V2and A De M, my response to Misterman wasn't a "Military Aircrew are better" argument. It was a response to his reasoning that airlines prefer integrated pilots because they are a known entity. I was showing that this is not the reason as military pilots can provide 3 years worth of detailed training reports from every single sortie. However, military pilots cannot even get a look in, even if they offer to pay for their TR with the likes of CTC. So obviously, it is some other reason that integrated cadets are selected before others.
The military/civil argument is something which I don't wish to go into during this thread.

Whether they're civil or military / integrated or modular the end issue is the attitude they bring to the job. The most common first question I'm asked by those thinking of becoming a pilot is 'how much do you earn'; says it all doesn't it.

sdryh #112 - in reply to your post the problem is these cadets don't go into it thinking they are going to 'take on a £100,000 loan in order to get a unsecured job on less that £20,000'. Many say they expect to be in the right hand seat for a couple of years then move to the left seat on £100,000+. Some even start talking about their desire to be in training in a very short while. The schools don't help by giving them the impression they are 'the best of the best' as they are the chosen ones; a statement I've heard on more than one occassion.

Realisation soon sets in and then they complain. Only when their T&C drop will the future recruits see the reality of the situation.

Misterman. You are spot on! It's all about cash - nothing else. It's hard to say this coming from an instructor background myself, but 700 or 700,000 hours GA - you're no closer to an EZY job I'm afraid.

Larrylaz, I think you've misread Misterman's post. He's saying its nothing to do with cash but the training and the indepth training record that the integrated cadets receive!
Although, you are right it's all about the money

I stand corrected. However we all know the point. It's all about the cheapest labour and there ain't no cheaper than a young buck with pockets stuffed with Dad's cash!!

Guy of Gisborne - I completely agree that military guys are a known quantity, like the integrated course pilots. I also agree with others that the overriding qualification to get into easyJet is money to pay for a course. The hiring of low-houred pilots in the numbers that have been typical in recent years has been absolutely ridiculous. The days are long gone when you can say that easyJet hires the best pilots - they hire the cheapest, simple as that. That means huge numbers of very capable pilots are prevented from even applying and instead we have taken numerous pilots who cannot even land the aircraft safely. I have always backed a broad recruitment policy taking from the ranks of ex-flying instructors, helicopter pilots, non-rated jet pilots, ex-mil, ex-turbine, self improvers and cadets. That has been conspicuously absent for many years now and I think that is a safety issue - but who am I?

A De M, I think that is the problem we face. We are voicing our opinions as individuals. Is there a way of setting up a poll on pprune? It would give everybody on here the opportunity to vote yes or no to flexicrew. Then we may have an idea of numbers against. Or perhaps, BALPA could put a poll on their website so members can show their contempt.
As an individual I have raised my concerns with BALPA, CAA and my MP. I have had a response from BALPA who seem to be approaching this problem from the employment law side of things. This is an excerpt of their response

"we need to continue to tackle the airlines that engage ‘flexicrew’, or whatever derivation emerges, on a disposable basis. We sought to do that in easyJet this summer but as you may know the deal got the thumbs down. We are keen to return to the issue. We are also looking at how we can stop the practice becoming established elsewhere and what we have done in Monarch and are currently balloting on in Thompsons are cases in point.

Fourthly we are working with Labour Research and our lawyers Speechlys to put together guidance and drawing on case studies. I cannot commit to e mail all that we are doing in this project but when we have developed it further we will want to do a ‘sense check’ with our members."

I don't expect to see any results there in the next 5 years. The CAA have not replied even though I sent my email twice in the last 6 months. My MP has replied and is doing some background digging of his own.

The CAA? Good luck with that, it is a public corporation with no government funding, it is entirely funded by the ones it is supposed to regulate.

Fox, hen, house.

A few years back, the crew at eJ held "action" over on board coffee, which was promptly reinstated after crews started working to rule and adding half a ton of fuel here and there.

If only the crews would react the same way when it came to having their terms cut by 20-30%, I guess coffee is more important.

I have been going on about this cancer for 5 years here and will do anything in my power to keep it out of our corner of the industry, it is a shame that the eJ and FR crews never felt the same way when this ugly thing reared its head.

A company like eJ will only pay what they have to and as long as there are new crews willing to work for peanuts and existing crews willing to go along with it, this will only end up in tears.

I was never the best pilot at easyJet but more importantly I was never the worst and I could always land the plane at my ranks ability no matter what. I will always remember what AdM said to me after someone's command check to eastern Europe on a rough night back into LGW :ok:

But what is not often spoken about is the fact that easyJet were unable to retain the services of these pilots.

Em don't operate the 330 so can't employ 330 pilots, they only operate the 319 and 320

Not much hope...
 

Guy of Guisborne, there's not much hope if BALPA can't even correctly spell the name of one of their major memberships? That's beyond poor... And just one of the many reasons I am questioning my membership. What they allowed in EJ is also beyond a joke.

I realise the CAA are not a government funded entity but any sort of response would have been polite, even a PFO!
You never know, they might be using the last 6 months to word and spellcheck their reply correctly before I paste it here (BALPA).
I'm a fighter but I'm losing the will against this situation. Perhaps it's time to jump ship and leave a 16 year career I have thoroughly enjoyed.

@misterman (or something)

A known quantity? I went Integrated with Oxford back in '06 and if there is anything I have realized about myself and my fellow 148HR TT colleagues back then it's this; you are anything but a known quantity. I swallowed the "integrated training is much preferred by the airlines"-pill like many others back in "my day" which after all isn't so long ago and I can tell you one thing; I wish I hadn't. I would have been in an infinitely better financial position going the modular way and earning my stripes up without a debt to service.

I've had the good fortune of not having to pay for any type-ratings, but that's all it was; good fortune. I wasn't any better and am not any better the pilot because of my "Integrated Airline Preparation Programme (c)". If anything I would say my best training days were conducted in the four years I spent with my first airline flying the DHC8.

Conclusion: cut the bull-crap. The industry is filling the right hand seat with people that can pay for it and not with people that are suitable for it whether with experience, or the ability (shown on some sort of thorough assessment). I don't blame you for falling for it, I was 20 when I did -- there were no sponsorships back then. In some sense the current state of the industry is the fault of my generation, yet somehow I can't help but feel utterly abandoned by our more senior colleagues in the more established airlines. Where are the strikes in EZY and RYR to prevent this abuse of youngsters? Or the unions in KLM/AF/DLH/SWISS appealing to the general public and the EU like they are now about FDR's? As far as I'm concerned this financial bloodsucking needs to stop; paying for any type rating should be made illegal in Brussels as a requirement to be EU-OPS compliant.

Or on another note: isn't there anything regulators can do about this clearly discriminatory hiring practice happening in the industry? One of the only fair firms around seems to be BA, their requirements usually mean that you speak English and have a bunch of hours on your name with the right license. Try doing that in the Netherlands, France, Germany, etc. One would think that if you have a JAR/EASA license, speak English, have a high school diploma and a logbook full of experience applicable to the job there is almost no way to dismiss a candidate.

Anyway, rambling on' ... a known quantity, talk to you in 3000 hours and you can tell me what you think of that comment yourself.

I graduated a couple of years ago at an unfortunate time and joined a long queue for jobs. I was one of the lucky ones and finished at a time the airlines had began to start clearing out the pools. As we started, we all felt sorry for those graduating and held on to hope things would have improved in 2 years time. I was well aware of classmates that knew the consequences of a perhaps poorly timed start of training. I am sure none of you will believe me but I was under no illusion before starting training that my provider was perfect. I knew I wouldn't have a job the morning after passing my IR and fortunately I had a previous career I could fortunately return to easily should things not quite work out for one reason or another. I was not 20, I knew my provider couldn't possibly be the best flying school in the world, I also knew that they didn't owe me a job how ever much the brochures suggested they would.

Again, I was just replying to a comment left by one user asking why his 700 likely mixed GA hours (assumption) may leave potential employers without perhaps less information than one of the big 3 could provide. I do agree with you that as unfortunate as it is, the airlines will continue to take those that can afford it. EZY is pretty bad and the wonderful new contract is obviously a bit of a joke. Ryanair is worse but as I understand the take home pay isn't terrible (don't quote me). It is of course a horrible situation for everyone to be in, the graduates are forced to take a job or else they lose currency and miss their opportunity. I would have loved to work my way up through African flying and onto turboprops. I feel I have missed out an important step of career development. Me and my family needed a semblance of stability so I felt that I had taken a better option.

I will leave it there as we seem to be going round in circles and it was a sort of off topic reply in the first instance. I appreciate union pressure on the airlines but more must be done.

opening
 

any idea about the requirements and when would be open please??:ok:

ArmApp, have you not read this thread? You're the reason Easyjet are getting away this!!!!

Not sure this will solve any problems, either in the industry or at Easyjet.

Was chatting to an Easy FO who had been on the contract work for two years. He was glad for the rating, but disliked the conditions, no pension etc etc.

He then mentioned that they were being offered the permanent contract, but on a B scale?, which was much lower than current permanent FO t&c. He stated that on this lower scale it would be near impossible to meet loan repayments, mortgages and be near impossible to survive on!

He said that they were all still looking to leave as soon as they could and gain better employment conditions elsewhere!,
The exodus will continue as soon as they can!