It's a matter of opinion, but I believe that 33k rising to 41k + variable pay is a perfectly good wage for any FO. It's roughly the same as a junior doctor or new ATC will get and is a liveable wage, if you don't have £1000+/month loan repayments. That's the key issue, paying upfront for flight/line training and the whole flexicrew system needs to change.

Unless things have changed recently ATC used to be about £50K starting once you'd finished your on the job training bit.

You're missing the point Utd. They have to spend AT LEAST 24 months on a zero hours contract first. No fly-no money. In winter than can literally mean no money and in the shadows lurks £100k of debt.

As despicable as this offer is with regard to the zero hours aspect of this contract . I have some sympathy with ManUTD1999's view. After all I have a mortgage. My debts are my problem and should not be considered when it comes to pay negotiation.

If these people took out debt to train that's the risk they took. Cut your cloth fellows. Save up for the lean winter months.

The thing I want to see is easyjet pilots in easyjet planes.

All that I fly with are happy enough and gross 35K on average. Its those that take out big car loans and live over their means that create such bad press.

Age 22 and earning 35K aint bad. The reality is 35K, not a 'zero hours contract'.
If people are better at budgeting and save some summer pay for the lean winter months all would be well.

Before I am shot down, I DO NOT AGREE with the way easy are doing this, but I am putting some much needed perspective on it.

But they're not all doing that are they. That's the problem. New entrants this year, new commands next year, existing commands beyond that. The slide to the bottom is well underway.

There are indeed a significant number of our FOs driving cars that I could never dream of. I suspect that is a combination of rich parents, living at home and a willingness to take on debt that I would never countenance. At the end of the day, disposable income has to be just that and what people do with their money is their own problem. Also, the level of indebtedness they were willing to undertake to become a pilot is also their own personal problem. No one with a brain in their head could have gone into this without an idea of the massive risks involved financially. Also, no one is on a zero hours contract, however bad the situation is. Nonetheless, it is a B Scale and that must be fought or there will be a C and D scale to follow.

This can all be resolved by incorporating the same 1500 hr minimum for airline pilots that the US are about to take on. No more CTC etc, airlines recruiting the DE and ex mil pilots out of work due to "trapped by loan" cadets willing to work for brass buttons, T&Cs improved as airlines now fight for the best of those few with enough hours and, type ratings provided by the operator.
No more buying your way into the flight deck, getting there purely through hard work and gaining the airmanship required along the way.
I was always taught that learning from your mistakes is good but learning from someone else's is better. Come on CAA sort this s**t out!

Guys and gals

people is missing one massive point. Not all of the flexicrews are 22 years old cadets!!

There are guys circa 30-40 y/o, and as much as 7000-8000 TT. Just imagine how they (we) feel having our face slapped by this "offer".

Disgusting. Just disgusting :{

Beside the "child's car" discussion, this is the point of everything
We have already seen how things have gone that direction with the LIS contract... yes, it is "acceptable" to be on lower wages at the beginning of your career and that is now "not hurting you", well estabilished Captain in your own base, but no-one knows what can be the next offer, or to whom it will be directed.

In that respect the loco's are very clever, they keep their captains well paid and in return very little trouble is caused as they destroy new FO T &Cs. No matter how many times you say it, you won't stop cadets risking their own and their parents money in pursuit of 'the dream'. If captains had taken a stand a few years back and refused to fly with any flexicrew pilot, we might not be in this situation now.

That said, I don't know much about the situation at Easyjet and it may be that people higher up the food-chain are indeed doing more than it seems from the outside.

Points out (yet again) that the UK law regarding unofficial industrial action would make that course of action very interesting.

...then they would have been instantly dismissed.

You don't really get this, do you?

Utter rubbish, there are loads of ways of stopping this cancer, it only takes a few line trainers and TRE's. They are the ones who participated in this and now they come here complaining how sh!t their industry is getting.....

cldrvr

Blame, blame, blame. :ugh:

If you are a LTC/TRE and suddenly you mostly fail people where previously you mostly passed people, then you will either be dismissed for IA, or disciplined/demoted for failing to be a trainer who can train.

Remember that lots of our flexicrew have may thousands of hours on type, and are not 200 hour wonderboys. One chap I regularly fly with has 9500 Airbus hours.

The significant change is that now all of our 450 flexicrew are seriously pissed off ("disappointed") and are looking to get out. In the mean time, from 1st April, existing employees and new flexicrew converts will have the legal opportunity for the first time to take industrial action.

No, actively participating in preventing this cancer from spreading to our side of the industry, with results. Our T&C's are improving while yours are going down year on year.

10-15 years ago you guys were earning more than we did, that has now been reversed not only by yours going down, but ours are steadily improving.

Our longhaul drivers are now on contracts that even BA in its heyday could not reach. Long may it continue.

Companies like eJ and FR will only pay what they have to and as long as there are guys either willing to pay for their own training/uniforms/base checks and guys like your 9500 hour driver accepting crap terms and as long as there are LHS drivers willing to fly with them and trainers willing to train them, this is only going to get worse, not better.

Our part time FA's are on better money than your RHS drivers are, what does this say about your part of the industry.

You guys are in a race to the bottom, you haven't reached it yet.

Just stick on another 500kg's for flexi-crew per flight.

It worked when Andy threatened to take away the free tea and coffee a few years ago.

(good to see a few more ex-Easy captains propping up the EK seniority list these days)

I honestly believe that Easyjet could offer total £25k pa for FO's and £40k pa for captains no pension etc and they wouldn't struggle finding people willing to do it...

I wouldn't go that far KidekiTojo... Plus they would really put the airline on fire, that's absolutely certain !

Frankly they could pay FO's nothing for the first 2 years. Do you think they would struggle to find people? No. You've got £100,000 worth of debt and in 2 years you'll be on "better money". You just need to "suck it up" for the first little while.

The only way to improve things is to stop people taking on the debt in the first place by really educating people, particularly younger people, about what they're getting involved in. Once you've spent the money you're trapped and its game set and match to the airline!

FRying, HidekiTojo isn't far off the mark!
Give it a couple more years and these relatively low paid FOs will have the hours to sit in the LHS. Loco management will say "hey how do you fancy sitting in the LHS for 25% more?". How many of these youngsters will bite their hand off? And so the downward spiral continues.
Then lets see how many permanent captains and TREs jump to the fore!

V2, if the CAA followed the lead of the FAA, then a 1500hr minimum would stop it all.

Captains Pay
 

veetwo, I reckon you,re spot on. If you extrapolate, and I have thought for a while, these contractors/first officers on twopence halfpenny will be offered a permanent command on at least £10k a year less than present Captains . The profession has become a sad joke, thanks to EZy and the other lot. I don,t this ever changing for the better, for pilots that is!

veetwo's made a good point, as I can only see T&Cs continue to decline.

The issue is who will educate these potential cadets before they sign on, as it needs to be a current group of airline pilots to have sufficient weight.

Why are we talking about pressuring these keen young pilots into giving up on their dreams??? I agree the system is abusing them and their financial backing but you're never gonna convince a driven and ambitious individual not to chase their dream. I went against many neigh sayers to become an airforce pilot.
The problem is with those who make the legislation. The FAA have stated this, as well as increased FDP, are reasons for recent fatal accidents and the demise of safety. Surely we should be lobbying the CAA to follow suit?
An increase requirement of 1500 hours will stop this CTC/Easyjet relationship and make young aspiring pilots work hard to get into an Airbus flight deck and rightly so.

Regarding 1500 hours, I fail to see why it would improve the terms on offer? Surely people would be even MORE desperate reaching 1500 hours having spent 2 or 3 years trying to dodge impossible debt repayments (whilst probably accumulating more debt in the meantime). You're just kicking the can down the road...

V2, I think you're wrong. The dream is sold by CTC stating that a job is all but guaranteed on completion of the TR (albeit a short term contract). Without this, as you stated: "2 to 3 years trying to dodge impossible debt repayments" would mean these young guys couldn't possibly afford the repayments. They would even struggle to get the loan without the guarantee of work! Thus stopping them in their tracks or stopping them from even beginning the journey. There'll be the odd millionaire's offspring who won't be daunted.
Then, as in the US now, recruitment of pilots with 1500+ hours would begin in earnest before the ruling kicks in and as the supply dries up the T&Cs increase as will the salaries. Eventually, we would be back to a position where sponsorship and TRs are provided by airlines again. Military pilots would have the opportunity to continue their aviation careers and those in the desert could come home.

BALPA and the then ezy CC are responsible for the introduction of flexicrew into easyJet.

When the CTC cadets asked for representation BALPA refused to help them citing that they were not employed by ezy so could not be represented.

When ezy wanted to offer a cadet payscale (as many airlines do to ameliorate their training costs) BALPA refused but agreed to "power by the hour" as an alternative.

But it's OK because the then BALPA Vice-chair now has her management job!

I don't understand why we are looking for someone to blame? It's the TREs fault, Easyjet captains' fault, BALPA's fault, Easyjet management's fault, CTC's fault, the baby pilot's fault!!!? Who cares? The industry I'd on its a**e and going downhill fast. What we need to look for is an answer to stop and eventually reverse the trend. Just look at recruitment in the US at the moment. There are still contractors and recruitment companies in a scramble to grab the 1500+ hour guys to freelance but, those guys with 1500+ hours are not normally dragging a £100,000+ debt behind them and so have more bartering room. The offers are already increasing as the deadline draws nearer. By the time it arrives those companies without the foresight to recruit early are gonna have to try to prise pilots from other airlines and how will they do that?

Yeah, right.

EJ has just made yet another annual record profit of several hundred Million pounds, yields are ever on the up, the "other lot" are in much the same shape. EJ's share price has, what? Trebled? Quadrupled in 2 yrs and they're on the brink of the FTSE 100. Directors are getting yet more multi-squillion bonuses. managers mere millions.

Pilots are getting screwed blind with below inflation "rises" because the company "cant afford more".

FOs are being screwed for inflated price training to buy a job that pays peanuts for years, jobs are being "created" by the hundred on paper but arent there when you look for the vacancies a new job necessarily produces...

The industry is on its arse all right because its sh!tting all over the people who do the work. Its going downhill fast in the nastiest race to the bottom the commercial world has seen in decades.

But not in the way the quotes were meant. Its a roaring runaway goldmine success for those with their fingers far enough in (ie up our) pie...

I don't see the issue as people that have applied for CTC etc. over the last few years knew the deal they were in for and still signed up and spent £100k.

It would be the airline's management that would also end up looking like idiots if they didn't adjust their pricing according to this ever increasing supply of satifsfactory FOs.

The issue is, FANS, that salaries, T&Cs and safety standards are all falling. If you think this is acceptable then fine carry on in your bubble until you're forced out of the industry, replaced by some young guy willing to do your job for 25% less. But when you start ranting then, the damage will be done.

GoG - it's got :mad: all to do with whether we think our T&Cs are acceptable or not.

When people are queuing up to enter the RHS despite the T&Cs being horrendous, then it would be crazy if the T&Cs didn't fall. The only issue will be if these people cause danger but short of a smoking hole, nothing will change. In fact, T&Cs will continue to come down and the LHS will come under pressure.

True FANS. But don't you want it to stop? Don't you want to save our industry before we are all freelance without any job security whatsoever?
Obviously the way to get things changed is using the safety card. A smoking hole in the ground is one way to learn the lesson but isn't it better to learn from someone else's mistakes? That's why I'm saying the CAA should follow the FAA and keep our FDP and increase an airline pilot's hour requirement to 1500+ hours.

Would love to stop it and have very bright & capable people entering rather those with the most cash. I'd love to not hear of people being surprised at how much their loan repayments are and that it can actually be hard and stressful work.

I don't think the minimum hours argument is valid, however, as plenty of people have been flying large aircraft in the UK with minimum hours for a long time.

Ok how do you propose we stop the current downward spiral? You must have some thoughts

GoG / EcamS

Fair enough, you both make a good point. Obviously introducing a 1500 hour limit would make it harder to get into the airlines. In terms of how FTE/OAA/CTC would approach this problem I'm not entirely sure. But you can be sure that they would have a strategy as regardless of legislation they are not about to wave their business goodbye without a fight. Perhaps as you say it would be a start though.

Lets see what happens in the US!

The only way I can see that might break this employment logjam is to remove the system that creates it, ie the mandatory start to finish sponsored/totally funded system of zero-to-hero on one cheque and revert to the previous and time-proven hours-builder system where money didn't enable you to buy an airline job, nor the airlines to control the training market.

Then we'd be back to flying instructors struggling to get a job in air taxi or aerial work, then jump to commuter or local carriers before making the break to the heavy stuff. Airlines get experience as they can no longer control the process from end of high school stage, and maybe a bit of airmanship would return to the equation too. Call me a nostalgic old fud if you like, but that system worked far better imho.

Lots of the present generation of FOs and SOs would hate the idea I've no doubt as it involves effort and commitment unknown nowadays. I bet many of the Capts would welcome it. The essential thing is surely to remove the artificial distortion of the job market by airlines through a stranglehold on recruitmant that denies honest commercial pressures to drive the job market throughout the entire industry.
It would be like a powerful dose of laxative to our chronically constipated job market.

Not that there is a snowball's chance of it happening of course.