I agree with skaterboi...It only a matter of time until these job will pay nothing or worse still the 1st officer pay the airline to sit in the RHS.

Jets are boaring in my opinion, real flying is in a light aircraft with 18 KTS cross wind and landing on the centre line.

It is still possible to do the above, but move on to someone other than EZY. I for one did that, 3 Type ratings, all paid for by the company, the max time i was bonded for? 4 years. Each bind cancelled the next out and the third was free! Now enjoying a tax free salary else where. Its funny, because so many wannabes ive spoken to dismissed my route saying they could not possibly survive on the wages a TP operator paid. Well all my collegues are still alive and didnt resort to selling organs to pay off debts. I was sat on the X carpark bus a LGW (coz i love it sooo much) and happened to get chatting to one of ( as it turned out to my amazement the few) flexiscrews that could afford a car. Having compared route with route to the green atpl issue, wages, costs and all, he sat there gobsmacked. It was sooooo hard not to laugh in his face. He had a look of one of those candid camera shows where some unsuspecting mug got taken to the cleaners. All because they believed they had done their homework, knew the warts n all, and could look forward to the dream salary after doing their time, shaging their way through the base whilst working on it.
Oh what poor judgement some folk show.
I used to go to that professional pilot training show back in 2003/4 just before i started training. Flexiscrew didnt exist then, the sponsorship style ctc entry with ezy and tcx did. They had a fair bit of interest i seem to remember. I would love to see what the ctc stand looks like today. Im sure its full of salivating 18 year olds, drooling at the sight of an A320. Not even realising the potential learning and development that is found on TP operators post mpl/cpl ir courses. And to top it off you leave ATHR and AP in the whole frikin time! For fear the QAR and FDM police might go tut tut. Talk about skill errosion......."oh its ok we do 'back to basics trg' every time in the sim and it is part of the ATQP". Spare me please.

Out of interest a new ba FPP got in contact who had previosly applied for my old operator, but failed, now successful on CTC course. Having number crunched they worked out they would be on slightly less than i was when i started on a TP, let alone todays starting salary(which is higher) Post deductions etc. And they are paying a proprtion of the TR, and only get BnB rather than allowances. Blimey, the things people will do just to fly jets straight away(ok they are better off in the long run agreed). Funny thing is......it doesnt get u laid. Unless they are dumb, girls in bars dont believe you until the grey in your hair starts coming through.

Oh sorry, forgot......initial investment. £62'000. I could afford property these days with the difference between a course, plus TR. I understand it is circa £80'000 for an integrated, or you could go modular, do it in quick time, if well planned and join a large TP operator when others leave to go elsewhere. 60 grand ish for modular today??? And no paying of type rating. Enjoy bond on full time perm contract. Or pay 150k become contractor, but fly big computer than makes your nob grow......well in your mind at least. Oh balls, no work next month, best become a prostitute to pay my way through the difficult spot.
Damn its only really fat old bird that'll have me. Ok waiter......damn i get sworn at and treated like crap the whole time......trolley collector at tescos......oh but its all soooooooo worth it. :yuk:

Enjoy it Hezza. And suicide is still considered a crime FYI. I hear the fast way bus passes into crawley are going up as well, best factor it in. And no i dont think you will really commit, or are likely too, any form of suicide.....but i bet that tick box on the class 1 renewal form will look tempting at some point, in a faux comical sort of way.

And i'm using Hezza as a generic term for all unsuspecticting wannabies, nothing too personal implied. The chap on the XYZ carpark bus at LGW was evidently a pprune nut just like the rest of us. Well researched indeed. :}

And the best thing about TP flying is the hands on flying ability you develop.
And where your flying abilities will be after a few years flying only the bus on AP
most of the time. Remeber AF 447.

Topic makes it into CHIRP FEEDBACK
 

What do people make of this CHIRP FEEDBACK (Issue 101, 1/2012) response?


http://i44.tinypic.com/9sbg1w.jpg

http://i40.tinypic.com/2vl74m0.jpg

Hezza: "I'm signed up to start on the CTC Wings Cadet scheme later this year"

Did you pay a deposit? Can you get it back and spend the money on fun flying around the globe? How about some bush flying, glider towing, instructing (Jerez want lots of FIs), TPs?

"but there really is nothing else" !

Really? how hard have you looked? How many pilots have you bought a beer for down the local flying club?

"cheaper route - but that leads no where fast"

Ah yes fast - like fast jet? Or fast loss of cash?

Patience dear chap! It will take you further than you think!

" but CTC are bloody good at getting you work flying jet aircraft at really quite good hourly rates"

Really? Maybe you should talk to 3 of their A320 pilots (CTC ones I know personally, there are likely more + I know of 2 other A320 unemployed pilots fm other uk schemes) who are presently unemployed and with under the golden 500h on type to go elsewhere.

Give modular a chance - it might save your bacon.

Well spotted Superpilot
 

Link: http://www.chirp.co.uk/Downloads/ATFB/ATFB101.pdf

"The Air Transport
Advisory Board concluded that it is relevant to highlight
the concerns expressed by some experienced line and
training captains regarding experience levels,
competence and fitness to undertake a duty."

Well done ATAB!

-----------------------
"I find the present bunch of junior First Officers very keen
and motivated but sadly woefully undertrained. They
have been taught to master the Flight Management
System but not taught the basics of flying or landing the
aeroplane."

Minimal Flying experience and lack of confidence is down to poor training and lack of practice in manual flying.

-----------------------------

"banning junior First Officers from reduced flap landings
or tailwind landings.
Coupled with a new bunch of inexperienced Captains,
the company finds itself on a bit of a tightrope where
safety is concerned"

So what happens if the Captain cops it and these FOs have to cope with dodgy wx, foreign ATC and perhaps another system issue?

-----------------------------

"When I ask these FOs why they don't go fatigued there
are several reasons, including the fact that they feel if
they go fatigued when they come up for an interview
with the company for a permanent position, this will be
held against them along with any sick days they have
had. Also, some FOs are only paid by the hours which
they fly and, as they are already in so much debt, they
choose to fly."

Very similar to Colgan

Pilots in Buffalo Crash Were Set Up for Fatigue, Officials Say at Hearing - NYTimes.com

"First Officer Shaw's commute and low pay, Colgan's pilot hiring and training practices, and pilot fatigue. A transcript of the cockpit voice record is released; it notes sounds similar to yawns from both pilots and frequent sniffles from First Officer Shaw. "If I call in sick now," she says, "I've got to put myself in a hotel until I feel better." She also talks about having made $15,800 in her first year at Colgan"

--------------------------------

"The CAA expects airlines to be able to demonstrate an
understanding of the type of flying that it operates and be
able to demonstrate how they manage their specific
operational risks (one of which could be the use of cadet
pilots). This would be an organisational responsibility that
the CAA would expect to see demonstrated."

Come on Airlines - how do you manage this additional risk?

Maybe learn from the past?

Britannia used to send cadets to macAlpines to fly HS125 before B737s

1980s BA cadets on L1011 Tristars had a FE in the rear to add CRM

TCX/My Travel used to send cadets to get Upset recovery training in aerobatic aeroplanes and then off to Flybe on Q400 to fly TPs for a while.

angelorange - I have not the slightest doubt you are a highly professional aviator with many years of valid experience in easyJet. I do not believe, however, your advice is correct to Hezza. We all lament the passing of the numerous previous ways into commercial jet aviation such as HM Forces, turboprops, night freight, single-pilot piston-twin taxi flying, instructing etc. The fact is, nonetheless, that those routes are generally gone. Like it or not, CTC is the main way into easyJet. The advice you are giving to Hezza, however well-intended, is fundamentally incorrect. All very interesting as it is to know how airlines did it in the past - it is just that, the past. None of these routes exist now and to tell someone to try them is to send them on a certain route to professional failure. As you well know, there are literally hundreds of ex-CTC cadets who are now at BA flying shiny long-haul jets or still at easyJet as flexicrew First Officers, Senior First Officers, Captains and Training Captains. The route provided into aviation by CTC has been incredibly successful in terms of getting the cadets from being 200-hour newbies to senior commercial pilots with a variety of companies. Whether it was the best route is debatable, but the fact remains that it is now one of the few routes in at all. In these discussions, I always think what I would advise my son - I would have to tell him to go to CTC if he wanted the most certain route into flying an Airbus. I am only too aware of the limitations of the CTC system, but it is, alas, increasingly the only game in town.

Oooooph
 

AdM,

Hope you've got a spare £120 k then.

Where is this 120k non-sense coming from?

To go from zero to flexicrew through CTC costs 93k including living expenses plus TR.

120k is just hyperbole.

I'm curious what all of you pro flexi/p2f/CTC/happy to be on a crappy salary for years with massive debts just so you can fly a shiny jet etc. think of this:

In X number of years time when you have paid off your loan or got some hours under your belt and want to move on to bigger better things what will you suggest/do when the bigger better thing wants to charge you thousands of pounds, give you a :mad: contract on a :mad: salary just so you can have the privilege of flying for them?

Answer A:
Pay up, I wanna fly bigger shiny things (or even similar shiny things) and I'm happy to put up with the crap Ts&Cs and crap salary for a few years because I plan on moving on when I've paid off my debts and got a few hours under my belt.

Answer B:
Don't pay/Can't pay, stay where you are which may or may not be on a proper contract maybe, or maybe not, earning decent money, flying the now not so shiny things.

How many jobs or type ratings are you willing to pay for?

Nabanoba.

I think you'll find 93k plus the cost of a type rating is 120k. Give or take. Personally I suspect it would be more for a lot of people as this is based on min hours etc.

120k. I should employ their marketing people. Take training which can be found elsewhere for 60-70k, put a few pics of shiny jets on your website and charge 60 grand more! I have a new found admiration for CTC.

NABANOBA:

Tut Tut, silly old me.

"ONLY" £92,000 for a non-job. With, or without type rating is still a ridiculous sum of money.

The world has gone mad - and I think AdM has too. I never thought I'd read him advocating wholesale the CTC system, even if it is under the guise of "it is the only way now........"

Spandex
 

No paying for type ratings at Flybe?

What is the pay like though?

Prospects after Flybe? (apart form the lucky few coming to BA and one or two at Qatar)

What is the roster like?

No I am good thanks.

No paying for type ratings at Flybe?
No.

What is the pay like though?
Better than this:
Every month.

Prospects after Flybe? (apart form the lucky few coming to BA and one or two at Qatar)
Emirates, Etihad, Jet2, Monarch, Thompson, to name the ones I can think of instantly and not limited to the Embraer guys either.

What is the roster like?
Depends which fleet. The last few months I was there 40-50 hours average.

Still, that doesn't answer my question does it?!

But that is because Alexander De Meerkat is absolutely right. Like it or not, the industry has been evolving this way for quite some time now. The recession has served to mask the reality, and provided a rock for the disbelievers to hide behind.

This route (and a couple of similar ones) has increasingly been seen as the "cadet" route into an airline pilot apprenticeship by many of the major players. In this case the rules of the game were, broadly speaking: You pay a £69,000 "bond" and another £10,000 for a foundation course. You budget for living costs (food and transport) for 16 months (pick your own figure I would average around £10,000) That commits around the £90,000 mark. On successful completion of the course, the cadet was offered a placement with a partner airline for 6 months, during which time around £8000 of the "bond was returned as a subsistance allowance, which the cadet used in conjunction with normal flight allowances to cover this training period. At the conclusion of the 6 months, the cadet would be well on their way to having 500 hours under their belt, and subject to the airlines requirements might reasonably expect to be offered an employment contract on cadet terms for a year or two, then dovetailing into a normal contract thereafter. The remaining bond was transferred to the partner airline who usually repaid it in monthly sums for the next 5 years. The type rating was paid by the placement (partner) airline.


This route provided a solid base into an airline apprenticeship, and for the succesfull applicants worked well. This same scheme is in many respects the same format as that recently adopted By British airways for their FPP cadet programme. It is also the format still used (in conjunction with CTC) by a couple of other companies still recruiting cadets.

The reality of the marketplace over the last 5 years or so, has meant that EZY has (with minor exceptions) been pretty much the only game in town. As a customer in a de facto monopoly position, it has been able to negotiate its own terms. Obviously these are favourable to the airline and significantly less favourable to the prospective cadet in financial terms. The type rating is now an added expense, and the placement terms are significantly weaker. However as a strong customer dictating terms to an ever weakening market, what were the options?

This winter has seen some growth in placement opportunities for some of these cadets, and there has been a limited ressurgence in the more classic terms for some graduates. I am aware of twenty graduates who are having their type ratings paid for by the placement airline. For these graduates the £90K figure I mentioned earlier is ballpark correct.

Expansion in cadet (entry level) programmes is increasingly going to follow this model. The schools themselves have spent the last few years investing in the infrastructure, and the airlines are going to tailor their cadet programmes around that infrastructure.

ADM says that he would advise his son to follow this route as the best "most certain" route into flying an airbus. Accepting that there is nothing "certain" about it, I would definetaly have to agree. That is the advice I would give to my son or daughter as well.

Spandex
 

Emirates and Etihad no go for Dash 8 guys. Qatar second officer if you dont have jet time. Monarch have not recruited non type guys for a while only DE and CTC? Thompson have not recuited for a long time either as far as I know.

So if you want to leave for better pay and a better roster options are limited until you have hours on the Embraer. Would that be fair?

Beazlebub,

Great advice. Get in huge debt, for absolutely NO guarantee at all of a permanent job.

My advice would be: Fly for fun, get a real career elsewhere.

Not perhaps what the young Meerkat or Beazlebub Cubs want to hear, but more sane.

People bandy about figures of £90,000 like they are insignificant. They aren't. They are MASSIVE financial millstones that will take ages to discharge. All that while, mortgages etc will remain unattainable, therefore home ownership and the wealth benefits that brings long term are more elusive.

£90,000. Just say it a few times to yourself. You'll either come to your senses or come to accept it. Unfortunately, too many do the latter IMHO.

Fairish. I know Jet2 are taking TP only guys, at least one as a DEC, as are BA. Dragonair will take you with TP command time.

But you still won't pay for any TR at Flybe.

None of this is relevant to my question however,

Narrow runway.

I absolutely agree with you. Keep repeating those numbers until they don't sound quite so glib. These are mortgage numbers, and indeed a second mortgage is often how they are secured. If you are the primary borrower they will indeed affect your ability to obtain a home purchase mortgage.

However as ADM has said, they are the routes into the career at this level. There are no guarantees, and whether it is an acceptable gamble for an individual is a matter for the individual. For those that are successful, some should be able to discharge their obligation within 5 years. It might be a very frugal 5 years, but if you are in your early twenties, being in your mid/late twenties with those training debts discharged, 4000 airline hours under your belt, a possible command looming on the horizon, and the ability to whinge about more mundane things, probably isn't the worst prospect in the world.

I am not offering "advice" to get into debt. The path to success is littered with the bodies of those who didn't succeed. Make no mistake it is a very risky venture. However the comment or "advice" if you want to call it that, is to those who have already decided to commit. I have been saying this for a few years now, and this is what I believe ADM is also saying. If this is your ambition within a short term timescale, then this is your best opportunity of achieving that ambition.

I fly with the "product" every day. It is a good "product." The airlines like it.

Rail against it with pleasure, but it is the reality of an airline pilots cadet apprenticeship in the second decade of the 21st century. I can't see that changing in the next decade. All I do see is a growth in this sector of the market, and a streamlining of the system into MPL over the next few years.

EZY,

Fair enough. That is your experience in the environment and culture you work in.

I have flown with them for the last 15 years, and the experience has clearly been very different to yours. That is why I made the comment.

Welcome to PPRuNe. ;)

I too fly with the product everyday, and must agree with ezy. I'm sure these guys and girls are keen, and are masters of the fmgc, but i'm afraid many of them have no idea about energy and profile management or how to actually land the aircraft. Only yesterday I was in the crewroom and overheard a trainer having to take someone off line after a few months because he couldn't fly an approach and land. What is going on in this company?

The airlines like them because they are cheap, and easily manipulated

BUGS/BEARINGS/BOXES

Not all of us have our sites set on "big shiny jets" and we don't all bemoan the lower salaries that TP First Officers take home. When I set out on my modular journey in early 2007, I was more than happy to find employment on a TP and take a massive salary cut compared to what I'm doing now. It was a career change and accepted all the highs and lows that came with that.

Having started my third season this year doing a weekend GA gig (unpaid) to keep current and not a sniff of a tp FO job yet, pray tell where all these TP jobs are? And yes I have networked for 3+ years, am flexible and am willing to travel world-wide!

Now I'm carefully considering an SSTR too. Utter madness I know.

Not having a personal go at you. Just wanted you to maybe see the world through our eyes a bit.

By no means did i suggest that 93k sterling is a low number. But it is 27k less than the figure being quoted. Which means it will take 2 years less for me to save for. Pretty substantial no?

I know it is an astronomical figure. But I have spent years researching and CTC is the only gig in town if I want to become a pilot. This isn't about me wanting to take shortcuts. It's not a shortcut. It's the only way.

Modular is cheaper, but there is zero logic in spending 60k to go down that route and then find that no one will touch you without a TR and 500+ hours on type. If I went the modular route I would have no chance of a job. With CTC at least I have a shot.

nobanoba - you are absolutely right. You will be aware that there are no absolute guarantees in aviation, but in as much as one exists, CTC is it. They have provided jobs, sooner or later, for just about every successful graduate of their schemes - not many schools can say that.

Narrow Runway - as far as I can tell, the essence of your advice is to get a 'real career' elsewhere. That is excellent if you do not want to be an airline pilot, but the nature of people on here is that they probably do. If that is what you want to do, and many young people still want to do just that, then the only credible way is through the likes of CTC. To say that they should get a 'real career' elsewhere is just crass. There are countless doctors who have amazing qualifications but cannot get jobs - a terrible waste of years at university. That does not stop them wanting to be doctors. And just out of interest, as one who has a son finishing university who does not want to be a pilot, I do not see a pile of jobs out there waiting to drag him fr om rags to riches in 5 years.

If I can take that observation one step further. For the last few months now, all of the successful graduates of the Wings courses have been transitioning straight into airline placements with almost no break at all. I am aware of one course who had to chase up their licence issue as they were starting with their airline the following week. Over the last couple of years that has not always been the reality, and given that Winter/Spring is always the strongest induction and training period, it might not be so in the next few months. However, as more airlines start to gear up for cadet recruitment, this looks like a very strong "ace card" if you want to be a serious player.

AdM
 

No, you are just reading what you want to read.

What I said was: "My advice would be: Fly for fun, get a real career elsewhere.

Not perhaps what the young Meerkat or Beazlebub Cubs want to hear, but more sane."

I specifically mentioned Meerkat or Beazlebub Cubs. i.e. Your offspring.

If you can't explain, in realistic terms, how far this profession has fallen, how long it'll take to pay back the debts and how unlikely it is that they will ever enjoy the rewards you do (even in a low cost airline), then I think you aren't telling the whole story.

I'm a father. My son is aeroplane mad, but I'll be telling him EVERYTHING, warts and all. If he still wants to go for it in years to come, then I will need to review it then. But, I sincerely hope that things may have changed for the better by then, but I know they won't - if anything, the FTO's will have just got even greedier and the PTF route will be engrained.

In total agreement.

Some also show an inability to learn and improve. I find myself guarding the red button on every approach with the newbies. That is with an expectation of using it.

I am also finding they will report for duty while clearly unfit due colds and flu thus increasing the chances of infecting other crew members.

Instead of no tailwind/Config3 landings and x wind limits of a gentle breeze they might be restricted to gear up and "please could you get me the weather for......" Those limits could be relaxed if "operating with a trainer"

However on contemplation I now think more people should pay to fly in the hope that supply will soon outstrip demand and the market will adjust itself. If that means our" zero to hero" generation are cast out into financial purgatory after 6 months on the line and replaced by more "Jet time right hand seat lemmings" so be it.

£10000 living costs are you having a laugh

I would say 18months at your current average UK salary is about £36000 take home pay whilst you are doing all your training before you wipe your feet on big shiny jet carpet

I can only speak for myself, but the interest is borne out of 15 years of direct involvement. I am neither a manager or shareholder in either company, and I do not profit in anything related to this subject. It is not an "untruth," in fact quite the opposite, hence the comments and observation.

Well, yes there are, but do you know who is charged with administering the sponsorship programme? CTC. Even so, with this and a couple of other cadet programmes, there is no guarantee of "a real contract" awaiting you. Nevertheless there are better terms applicable to certain other schemes also adminstered by CTC. The problem is, (and I say this again,) they haven't been around for the last few years, when EZY has indeed been pretty much the only game in town.

BA have dipped their toe back into the cadet programme, and Monarch have taken around 30 cadets over the last 12 months, so things are improving a little, but despite this EZY has still far and away been the largest cadet destination from this source.

Yes, but few wannabes use it as a civil apprenticeship, and even if that were not the case, the requirements, standards, and demands of a military career are far removed from the realistic elements of this particular discussion.

Well, you might, but that would ignore the reality of the situation. What is being said here is an honest appraisal of the situation. The fact you don't like it isn't salient to the observation.

I am selling nothing, however if my son or daughter insisted on a career in this industry in todays market, this is the route I would honestly advise them to take.

No, that would be about right. Obviously it is a very subjective figure, but for a student living frugally that £10,000 would be a reasonable ballpark number. That is what recently graduated cadets tell me. I am not sure what you are alluding to, since these cadets are not earning an "average UK salary" whilst they complete a full time course of training, much of it overseas.

Thank you, but I don't have a role with them.

Not all cadets go straight from school/college, many have to leave paid work.

This is where the £36000 lost wages comes into it, whilst going back to college.

so you have upto £100000 training costs plus extra depending on type rating and living costs, and at the same time £36000 less income over 18mths due to no job.

Obviously the aforementioned £100000 is not interest fee, what would the final payback be give or take???? anybody

Studi - the exam question is how does someone become an airline pilot? To describe CTC as a scam is just nonsense. You say it is not the only game in town - where else then can you go to get that first airline job these days? Also to suggest that all you get out of it is a paid by the hour job is not true. I do not like the current employment practices of easyJet any more than you do, but there is nonetheless a clear path from 200 hour cadet to captain on a 5/3/5/4 contract. The key thing is that many of these guys have gone onto a great future, whether with us or with other large carriers - it is not all bad.

Robert G Mugabe - we have all once been 200 hour pilots, and I was fortunate at that stage in my career to have supportive captains who understood the deal. My personal obvservation is that large numbers of CTC guys and gals are great people, but just lack experience. You cannot buy experience - you just have to get it. Part of the process is that if an individual needs more support to maintain the required standard, they will get it. That means that, on occasion, someone may be taken off the line to undergo further training. That does not mean the system has failed - it means the training system checks and balances are in place and working correctly. We have a number of Captains who, for reasons primarily related to their own insecurities, have elected to make life incredibly difficult for our newest pilots and make them feel small in order to make them feel better about themselves. I frankly have very little tolerance for that attitude, and always try to be supporting to a new pilot finding their way in the world. Clearly we have a minimum standard that must be maintained, but within that limitation we can go to great lengths to assist our colleagues.

No problem however CTC and the like used to have a selection process in order to stream the candidates. They would then accept for training those they believed would reach a good standard on line.

As a generalisation and an observation the latest batches of the product are not as good as they used to be. So either the training provided by CTC is not as good or the raw material is inferior.

Either way those paying for the training should ensure they have the aptitude for it or that they receive value for their money.

One could even say that easyJet is happy to resource its expansion by using this inferior product as it is cheaper to retrain/recheck provide recency checks than it is to recruit,train and employ their own product.

I would also suggest if the problems are related to the flying of and landing from a basic AP coupled ILS approach the product is very poor and should not have passed line training in the first place.

In my view if our company SOP's severely restrict new pilots from operating the aircraft in accordance with FCOM/FCTM and our unrestricted SOP's there is a recognition that the new cadet is less able than his/her predecessor.

Thank god. Our minimum standard has got lower in my humble opinion. One does hear that our training department is constantly battling other company departments in order to restrict the erosion of pilot quality and standards.

Well if those Captains are known to the training department they should be taken off line to undergo further training themselves.

Summary. For those about to pay to fly. Ensure you have the aptitude for it and ensure you receive value for money when training. Good luck.

There seems to be posters with quick access to facts and figures about CTC here, who quite obviously have some closer tie to CTC than they are letting on.

CTC is without doubt largely responsible for the demise of the professional career here in the UK. Having done a TR at CTC, I can honestly say their training was second rate. The place is populated by old geezers topping up their large final salary pensions, or rather suspect operators.

Anyway, I am pleased to hear the cadet standard is getting crap, since it means they will fail selection everywhere else. How come every Ezy F/O has their sights set on BA? With only 250 places available for DEPs, an awful lot are going to be disappointed in the coming years.

No Sponsor for a guy who says he is a a BA pilot, you do not seem to have been done any lasting harm by your CTC foray. I gather from the tone of your post that you do not like them. Honest feedback is helpful. However Schadenfreude about others trying to make a go of things and indeed follow in your footsteps is another matter.

By that, I assume you really mean, very experienced captains with a long and obviously succesful career behind them with a variety of legacy airlines?

That doesn't appear to be what is happening. In fact more seem to be getting selected by a variety of established and new operators including easyjet, British airways, Monarch, DHL, Cathay Pacific and Qatar airways.

yes, possibly. Presumably thus depriving them of a decent pension and the chance to top it up with a training position at CTC and other fine training establishments?

There is nothing "Schadenfreude" about my observation. Rather, it is obvious that if someone does not have the aptitude (as others are observing who fly for EZY as posted above), then it is those training organizations who are at fault by taking someones money when they know better.

Thanks for the updates of employment success for CTC cadets Bealzebub.

I do.

I've flown with their cadets for the last 15 years. I have spent thousands of hours in the company of cadets and experienced pilots trained from this source. I've been line checked and OPC/LPC checked by CTC trained pilots. I have spoken to company management pilots trained by CTC. I have visited their training establishments in Southampton, Bournemouth and Hamilton, and spoken with cadets going through training. I've spoken with Instructors in the UK and in New Zealand. To be fair, I think I have done some homework, and to be honest as a twenty thousand hour plus pilot, it is not very likely that I will need to avail myself of their services in the very near future. However I haven't completely dismissed the idea that no sponsor suggested in an earlier post, when he said: It sounds a much better prospect than either Dignitas, or a council run care home!

Beyond that, I don't work for them or draw any other benefit. However if you think I should, then please send them an email with that suggestion and I promise that I will paste a copy of the first cheque that arrives on the doormat.

New EZY/RYR Cadet scheme?
 

Is Tesco's JSA + expenses fairer than P2F?

"The advert, posted on the Jobcentre Plus website, said Tesco was looking for a permanent night shift worker in a store in East Anglia, paying just expenses and Jobseekers' Allowance.
Furious Twit ER followers riled the advert on the social networking site, questioning how it was possible for a major supermarket to get away with hiring someone in return for no full-time wage. Jobseekers' Allowance is currently paid at just £53.45 per week for under 25s, or £67.50 for older staff"

Telegraph uk



Tesco: JSA Plus Expenses Job Ad Was 'IT Mistake'

Tesco in row over advert for unpaid workers as it claims 'expenses plus benefits' offer was a mistake | Mail Online