1. All the more reason not to do it.

2. Again, if this is the case, don't train.

3. I'm not getting that one.

Agree with your bottom statement.

My point being that someone who has access to £100K plus without being landed with the burden of having to pay it back will have limited concern about the consequences of a recession. They will have limited concern about the contract on offer at their LCC of choice. They will however be able to tell you what's so great about a 737NG or who provides Type Rating training for Easyjet.

I reckon its quite easy to judge flexicrew for choosing to accept a contract like that but one should think of the personal situation as well.

There probably are enough examples of people fresh out of training who can't wait to sign the contract without any thought about the t's & c's which is pretty alarming. But when I look at my personal situation for example the story is completely different. With me are probably hundreds of people who were/are in the same situation.

Started training in 2007 when everything was still going well economy wise. Then when the sh*t started to hit the fan a couple of months into training there was no way back. After completion of my training I was very reluctant to even look at schemes like flexi. Two IR renewals later and the situation was a lot different I can assure you!

I discussed the flexi contract a lot of the people I trained with and who signed the flexi contract long before I did. This way I knew what I could expect.

When I got the opportunity it didn't take long before I wanted to take the gamble. In the back of my head there's always the thought that it's not the way it should be but I haven't regretted my choice so far.

Don't give it another thought - there are people here who will tell you that green is actually red...after a while you begin doubting yourself

& this is exactly the type of blinkered approach which got the industry in the world of **** it is in today.

At the risk of being controversial...

Anyone judging the cadets` "blinkered approach" for taking up the "offer": Had the opportunity for a "fast track" into the RHS of a Jet, including the prospect of emplyoment (never mind the conditions attached) been there when you started your flying training, would you have gone for it?

Think hard. Any answer to that is actually useless because it's hypothetical as is the question. Just trying to get people to think and to put some perspective into the discussion. Schemes like that will always attract too many people (as will schemes that have you being wasted working FRV over the summer for a bit more money... :ugh::ugh::ugh: sound familiar?) Being given this chance at the right time in their lives, I believe many of the ones that now are so vocal against the whole thing might have actually jumped on as well...

Still, that doesn't make it right...

I view the youngsters who accept these contracts as poor deluded victims of " snake oil salesmen". They are naive prey to the likes of CTC.

Conversely I also have no respect for these "victims". They have demonstrated such poor judgement by throwing huge sums of money in the quest for instant gratification.

They are the " new generation ". Products of their time where to buy now and pay later is a concept they are comfortable with. Hell the British Government has been doing it for 15+ years.

However here is the rub. They will have to adjust their expectations when they have to pay it all back. I quite enjoy watching the scales fall from these bright eyed,indoctrinated, generally arrogant fledglings' eyes once they are out of the training world and exposed to "real" life.

As for the consequences. If these people have no self respect in the first place why should they expect me to hold them with any regard.

The difference between being naive and stupid is small.

I’m still at a loss as to why this is such a bad deal.

At potentially the age of 20, you’re getting a starting salary that works out around £35k gross or £1,800 net after loan repayments.

You’re flying one of the best & safest bits of kit around doing a job that you love, with a well respected airline (from a training and SOPs perspective at least).

OK, well I didn't really mean what I wrote (to an extent) - I just got fed up with reading the same old stuff here so decided to be an ignorant :mad:!!

I agree with Callsign Kilo in that after going through an FTO the ONLY options that are presented to you are these SSTR schemes with questionable contracts. They really do sell you the fact that if you aren't prepared to do a SSTR and don't get into one of these schemes you're screwed.

I'm sure its pretty easy to look down at the new cadets joining these schemes and wave your finger at them, saying they're crazy, destroying the industry etc.. saying how they should've done it the proper way by going onto TP first but from I what I came across during my job hunt these were the best contracts out there....and thats saying something!

I'm sure coffin corner would say that if that was the best out there then you shouldn't take it - but lets be serious are you going to turn down a contract which seems to be the best you are going to get at your level? am I really going to be that stubborn and refuse to sign it in the hope that maybe in 10 years time it might be a bit better? I'm not denying that these contracts are rubbish, I'm just saying that once you've qualified and those are the best offers available you really do have to take it (IMO).

As the previous poster said, I guess you could not train in the first place but how many people look at potential contracts in detail before they start training to do something? once you're trained up its too late.

Maybe this applies to you guys too?

Bealzy

Following the magenta line is a vocation is it?

What a sense of humour you have!! Don't tease the littluns, it's cruel.

Vocation it ain't.

some would argue its harder and more academically challenging to become a pilot than it would be a lawyer or a doctor. certainly wouldnt brand the position with the likes of an ambulance driver or a Samritans counciler of which are vocations:8

Learjet,

from personal experience, it is much much much harder to become a qualified doctor or lawyer than a pilot. There is just no comparison. If you think otherwise you are fooling yourself.

As regards to the Flexi-Crew issue:
Anyone who now signs one of those contracts is just plain stupid. Chasing a "dream" is simply not a justification.

If you can come up with that kind of money then use it to become something sensible, like a lawyer or doctor.

FANS you're an idiot. Did you read my post? It's nowhere near £1800 after loan repayments. I know of only one guy who got into training at 18 and even he didn't start flying for easyjet until 22. It took 4 years to get from start of training to RHS. So none of this £35k after loan at age 20. Added to that there is NO GUARANTEE you will be flying. Train as a doctor or a lawyer and there will be a job out there for you. Train as a pilot and you MAY work 8 months then get laid off again. All with a debt of £100k. Bloody marvellous. You are the reason courses like this exist and you are the reason they will continue. Open your eyes and smell the coffee.

Yip

I can understand people taking the contracts if they had already started the process before the downturn, but for those who haven't yet, and didn't, I think they have been/would be mental. What I don't get is if you are about to invest £100,000 then why the hell are they not researching everything? I don't buy the "oh the flight school sold it to me" brigade. £100k is a serious amount of cash and I for one would want to be armed with all the facts before ploughing any kind of cash into flight training.
A sad indictment of the way it has gone is that these have been the only contracts on offer for a long while and yet the flight schools were full, people queuing up to throw their cash at them. I personally don't believe that this is down to the schools' selling tactics, I think it is down to the individuals who will stop at nothing to sit in the rhs of an airliner and will do "whatever it takes, at whatever the cost", this is the real driving force behind it and the schools and airlines (Easyjet) are coining it in and laughing their tits off. I thought the credit crunch would stop the banks lending money to all these individuals but they are finding the cash, I don't get that either.
Where does it end though? I am not sure it will, not now. It really pains me when I am flying around and I hear all the foreign pilots flying for Ryanair & EasyJet. The cadets with cash are coming from the continent and are keeping the schools full over here too, the free labour laws are unfortunately a one way gravy train, but that's a different discussion for another day.
You could say I am slightly bitter about it all, (I'm not though, I am happy to be employed) I am an experienced pilot (if u call 4,000hrs experienced) stuck on a "modern" turbo prop with nowhere to go. The natural step up for the likes of myself is to go to Easyjet, Monarch, Thomas Cook etc, but we can't go anywhere. The only way to get on in this industry now is to have absolutely no experience. When & where will it end? I'm not sure it will.

I'm on a FlexiCrew contract with EasyJet, starting at the beginning of 2010 as one of the first batch of contractors from Parc. Ultimately, it's worked out pretty well - I love my job; work with great people; fly brand new aeroplanes and get paid pretty well for the privilege.

I've flown 650 hours in the last 12 months and grossed ~£50,000. This pay will increase by 20% in a little over a month when I hit 1500 factored hours. It's not hard to be free of debt in under two years if you're careful with money - ie, not taking every month's pay and squandering it.

That's not to say that it's all sunshine and daisies. There's a continued uncertainty over employment prospects and the proposed new entrant contract is laughable - it's basically EasyJet moving FlexiCrew in-house and cutting the agencies out of the picture.

There already exist Second and First Officer new entrant contracts, agreed two years ago, which no FlexiCrew pilot has ever seen. It's a pay-cut for those of us with Parc, many more years on FRV, and no loyalty pay. Leave is another catastrophe with some people averaging one week a year. EasyJet blames Parc; Parc blame EasyJet. It pisses me off on a massive scale.

The lack of rostering protection is another issue. So is the problem of "us and them" in the workforce, which to be fair I've never experienced but isn't unheard of. Just look at this thread. FRV would work if we got a little control over our days off, but it seems too much to ask. I tried to get a single day off with 12 month's notice which took way too much effort to make it worthwhile.

WWW - I agree with you in many respects on your views of FlexiCrew, I really do. None of us expects you to vote for any deal to get better conditions for us (though I suspect the crap deal for FlexiCrew is not going to be the defining factor of the new pay deal) but I have to ask if you're so vehemently opposed to it, why you and BALPA allowed it to happen in the first place?

As usual on PPrune, you’re an idiot for disagreeing with someone!

I know of a chap working at EZY at age 20 – but the point about my age comment is that this is a job you can get straight into without strong academic qualifications &/or uni.

You’re right there’s no guarantee of a job – the same is very true for the many lawyers out there with law degrees plus LPC doing paralegal work. At today’s uni fee levels, they’ll have spent a lot of money with even less guarantees than CTC.

We can go on comparing pilot to other jobs but you’re getting mixed up with the numbers - and deducting living expenses which I am afraid to tell you have to be paid in any job you do. The £35k is before loan and a guideline for the gross pay – I think it’s even been issued as part of the OAA MPL scheme now (but someone else can confirm).

Yes you’ve got ~ £100k debt, but everyone knew that before they even turned up at CTC’s/OAA/FTEs open day. With CTC, you’ve got a job flying a 320 that you get paid for in line with market rates for someone with very little experience. What more could you possibly expect when there are many experienced TPs more qualified for your job?

The cadets have a cavalier attitude towards £100,000 because its not their money - its the equity in 'mummy & daddy's' house... :mad:

FANS - go to listentotaxman.com stick in 35k and see what you get. I make it 2180 a month. Minus your £1150 a month which is what I pay gives you £1000, thats without a student loan repayment. Nowhere near £1800 as you said. Therefore I'm not disagreeing with you, I'm proving you wrong. Take it from someone who is in the system. Don't just make stuff up from what someone told you. And don't patronise my "getting my numbers mixed up," because I haven't and I don't. I spend hours working out how much I'm going to get paid and putting it into spreadsheets so I can budget - go back to page 1 and you can see. You've just made yourself look stupid.

University fees are completely different to a SECURED LOAN on your parents house. You don't pay any of it back until you earn over the threshold. Try persuading HSBC that you can't afford it this month because easyJet only gave you 25 hours as happened before christmas.

I have no idea how much the repayments are on 100k, but I imagine they are a lot higher than mine are after I borrowed 65k which was unsecured and when cadets were going straight into the RHS on a permanent contract.

Looking at your other posts from before christmas you were trying to put people off applying to CTC and OAA. Two-faced?

Surprisingly, there has been no mention on this thread of the six Easyjet First Officers that went bankrupt last year... :suspect:

What I cannot understand is the market place for jobs in airlines is crammed full, people with the I will do anything attitude.

Surely the airlines must know this, and what would stop them lowering salarys to much lower amounts i.e 18,000 for FO and 30,000 for a captain???

if demand is so high why dont they take advantage of this?

Sure it would but a lot of people off training to become pilots but it may even out the job to pilot ratio.

I had a restaurant in the UK before comming to OZ, when I did my interviews I had a medium responce, but if I had applications comming out my arse and people throwing money at training programs it would put me in a position to say "hold on a second demand is high Im going to knock the salary down here.

on the other hand if you are finding it hard to employ people demand would be low, so you would need to increase the salary to attract candidates.

I am in no way supportive of low salarys, but if your in buisness and you have a job market like the airlines why dont they cash in?:hmm:

Because luckily there are unions. For how long is anyones guess. Airlines are also slow to respond, even locos.

HP Bleed the real reason is market forces. Those who have a reasonable amount of experience are paid the market rate. The unions especially BALPA are just a means of collective negotiation. If Union demands get unrealistic (ie in certain European countries) companies will just end up out-sourcing or limiting their exposure to the unions influences.

Cadets are not a valued resource. They however have sold themselves short by agreeing to their price by accepting the contracts.

Well, no Robert, if it was market forces cadets would already be getting paid minimum wage. That was the point.

HP I think you will find that you and the other cadets/flexicrew are pretty much living in minimum wage territory until you pay off your loans. Paying off the loan in about 8 years or so and paying £17000 in interest at 4%. Long time to be near or at minimum wage. Have fun in your twenties. Situation eased slightly if you get a permanent contract. Last in first out when we stop recruiting or hit the financial rocks , and your loan follows you.

If the unions had been more proactive in nipping P2F and the cadet schemes off in the bud you would not be in the financial position you are in now. Easyjet used to employ new joiners and bond for 3 years until the type rating had been " payed for " . All you chaps have done is pay a service provider a huge amount of money to pay easyJets training costs. Well done you:ugh:

Then again if BALPA had been more proactive you would be below the experienced Turboprop guys/self improvers and ex military people in the feeding chain.

You make your bed... :E

Hang on one second.

Let me make it perfectly clear that I have never signed up for P2F, nor did I originally sign up for crappy flexicrew. What I signed up for was an integrated flying course which we were sold a TR with and entry into the RHS of easyjet on a permanent contract. The fact that we were sold down the river to pay additionally for a TR and get paid by the hour is not purely my fault. Maybe if you had pushed BALPA from your comfy LHS and refused to fly with "cadets" the scheme would have been ousted at the first symptom.

You do not make your bed of goose feathers to end up laying on brick do you. Ridiculous assumption.

My interest will be about £10000 over 7 years at 2.75% above base - currently 3.25. But then I borrowed against my OWN name may I add and unsecured, a lower amount than the current funding required. It maybe minimum wage for a year or 2, but that is no different to a modular route, forking out £40-50k initially and ending up on £30-35k if you're lucky, for 10 maybe more years before getting a jet job.

I agree, the TP guys should be given greater oppurtunities, but again, that's hardly our fault. Would you have turned down the course 6 years ago? That's the state of the industry. They've costed themselves out of the market. Now, THEY'VE made their own bed, as have the military guys, they know that there may not be a jet job at the end of it. Why would I go through modular training to get into flybe on a dash when I can go straight onto jets?

Please don't compare what I singed up for, to what guys are currently paying out for. I've made it clear before that I wouldn't do it now.

Look HP lets not get riled young man.

The original contract you signed was not worth the paper it was written on if the terms and conditions were changed. You obviously did not read the small print.

Although in the left hand seat I have never pushed BALPA as I am not a member, never having seen the point in that organisation. A very expensive talking shop with no real relevance. They will not help you if you mess up at work because you messed up at work. As you are finding out they did not help you or those P2F/ flexibod/cadet types.

I see £10 a month you can save. Why dont you pay full membership fees anyway?

Additionally I hardly agree that it was the existing pilots fault you signed for a course of training in order to fulfil a childhood dream. Its never your fault....

Market forces..

Finally lets agree that the thread starter should not start now.He/she would be stupid to do so.

Some of you who allowed CTC and others to fleece you fall into the naive bracket.

I without doubt may be considered an a**hole but I am not stupid or naive and would not have signed up for the contract you did. My generation are more adverse to financial risk than you chaps. The benefit of old age,treachery and a different mindset.

Off to change the colostomy bag....

Haha of course! You're the lot that started the borrowing frenzy in the first place. How could I forget. Do not generalise about generations, I did my research and the unsecured loan was against me, not my parents, I have no further debts other than a student loan for my degree which serves as a backup in case easyjet go bust (unlikely) or I need further work due medical or other reasons. "Your generation", the so wise and fiscal took out loans for cars, holiday homes and holidays and found themselves stung in the recession. Not quite so black and white I'm afraid.

I didn't say it wasn't my fault, in fact I stated it wasn't PURELY my fault. I of course am partly to blame for the situation I now find myself in, for being so naive in the first place.

I never mentioned I was in BALPA, however unlike you I feel they are of value, look at companies that have no union representation for example. Nice to see you are feeding your pay deals and terms and conditions off other peoples money. Would you perhaps prefer to be in Ryanair and have no say whatsoever on basings, pay deals and generals ts and cs.

Anyway, enough debate, I have another 4 sector slog to attend.

£120k
 

£120k : That's on the low side for zero to hero wings pilot scheme and includes basic cost of living whilst under training.

If you include loan interest repayments at 8%.........

As said on a wannabee forum I know of 5 A320 rated pilots who are unemployed ranging from just base training to 500h on type. One of whom was top of a CTC Wings programme only to be failed o his line check for..... lack of condfidence! How can they expect huge confidence when the guy only had a few flying hours from the scheme? More likely politics involved.

Just be careful what you sign!

If you are patient and try to do a flying in small doses rather than an integrated bank debt scheme you will get there. All the best!

As for instructing being difficult - yes pay starts low but once you teach CPL/IR it's much better than Flexi deal and if you make the grade Contracted Military B1 QFIs are on mid forties basic pay.

BALPA let this happen
 

BALPA have looked after the Captains at EZY and the TRI/TRE's that work for CTC.

They have never helped cadets or experienced pilots who fell foul of CTC's schemes.

Why are you paying them £10 a month for this awful Flexi contract?

They even advertise SSTRs in The Log!

Good job some are seeing sense and leaving:

UK pilot union turf war - Learmount

Robert G Mugabe - probably best if you didn't play the old 'in my generation' card. Your generation has pretty much made the world bankrupt.

riiigggghhhttt. :ok:

I think this must rate as one of the most crass comments I have seen recently. Financial incompetence and incontinence knows no generational boundaries. If you wish to lay the blame at a particular human group you need look no further than the political left on both sides of the pond. Former US president Clinton was instrumental in cajoling the US banks to offer the sub-prime mortgages which were a major catalyst to the first round of crises. Here, Gordon Brown looked the other way when our own banks were doing things they ought not to do and he spent tomorrow's tax takings yesterday, like a drunk on boat-race night. No, it's not generational. It's political.

Let's not forget greed is universal. From the inflated housing market in the USA and uk to the 2011 uk riots. The mid noughties attitude of I can get a cheap loan and won't have to repay it if I go bankrupt. And the desire to get everything now. Reminds me of how pilot training and 1st flying job aspirations have changed past 10 years with devastating results in personal debt terms.

Its amazing how the pilot community rounds on itself. Everyone blaming each other; pilots blame cadets for accepting crap contracts, cadets blaming unionised pilots for allowing it to happen.

The real "villain" here, quite simply, is deregulation.

Many years ago, aviation was state controlled, with inter-governmental agreements about who could operate what. It would almost certainly have fallen foul of modern anti-trust laws and equivalent. Anyone who remembers how the Bitish tax payer paid in excess of £1 Billion for a tent to commentate the millennium knows that when the state controls a project, all participants grow fat on the contracts.

Back in the 1970s at the height of state control a long haul skipper earned similar to a CEO of a FTSE100. Leaving aside the whole debate of modern boardroom pay, this was clearly an inflated amount.

But then the free market was let in, slowly, and by increment. Each loss of terms and conditions blamed on the incumbents for not "growing a pair". First it was the loss of the skipper's special suite down route then other more important things were attacked. Was the story of the abolition of the Captain's Cheeseboard at BA nearly provoking a strike a true story or a metaphor?

When the rot really set in pilots had to pay for an MCC, then a type rating, then line training, then crap part time/ self employed status.

Once the whole of Europe had deregulated and all the routes were open to free competition, why wouldn't the airlines choose to reduce their staff costs to obtain an advantage over a competitor?

And why wouldn't the prospective wannabe accept incrementally lower T&Cs than the previous generation. "Oh, its only an MCC, only £2000". Then "Well its a bitter pill to swallow, but if I pay an extra £20K for the type rating, I'll get the job that will see me earning £60K a year within a year or two". Then it came down to "If I don't pay for line training, someone else will, and he'll only spend 6 months at Easy, then get in to BA and live the dream". Were these decisions really illogical?

Many of the people who moan at the current generation for not choosing another profession like Law, Medicine or Accountancy almost certainly have never sat behind a desk and endured the boredom of sitting in an office for 8 hours a day (if you're unambitious enough to work 9 to 5).

The current system is terrible and I do not seek to defend it, but I don't think blaming the current generation for seeking what we have already achieved is the right way forward.

So if "cadets" refused these types of deals would they still exist? Of course not. It's the same as why they can charge you £25 for a red rose on Valentines Day, why? Because people are prepared to pay it, it is as simple as that.

So, I'm signed up to start on the CTC Wings Cadet scheme later this year and thought I'd add my thinking behind this decision into the discussion.

I'm in my mid-twenties, and am in the fortunate position of having about 75% of the capital (including living costs, TR contribution) having trained and worked since I was 17, and having run my own business for the last 3 years.

I'm a fairly long-time member of this forum, and seeing the wood for the trees (which, according to a previous poster, is something I should be awful at) is something I think I've become quite adept at. What I see is a less-than-perfect contract available to new trainees, but really nothing else.

I was originally going down the old fashioned, cheaper route - but that leads no where fast. Even on today's T&C's making the business case for going integrated is quite easy - I'm still working and earning right now, and if all goes to plan I'll be sat in the RHS of a jet-liner at the end of next year, earning a decent salary in perhaps 2.5years.

What will I do when I'm only working 20 hours in a November/December you ask? (...aghast at my stupidity)...

...Well, I'll earn money elsewhere of course, using my existing skill set.

I appreciate that I'm paying a lot of money for expensive training, but CTC are bloody good at getting you work flying jet aircraft at really quite good hourly rates. And, as even the likes of WWW have alluded to in the past - the job is still pretty darn' good.

Just a quick one boys and girls. I know how you all love the good ol "it's not my fault, there was no other choice" and the " your just another rich daddy's boy trashing our TandCs" debate. Truly entertaining stuff. But, has anyone found out for sure if the correct answer to wanting lube with your shafting is yes, or no? I mean surely in this epic utopian society both are correct? One can hardly discriminate these days. Or is it rather a case for the examination of the quality of parchment the cheque book is made from? Perplexing ambiguity i'm sure.......................ok so where were we? Are yes, i've just taken the aviation equivilant of the date rape drug and await my start date.......excellent, my favorite part..........do continue.............

Colgan anyone.....

It sounds like Hezza has it all under control. He or she knows how to get the best out of the hobby of commercial flying. One day it might be possible to get paid for flying.

Hezza dont do it.

The days of big LCC's expansion have gone. The Euro crisis has yet to run its course. The UK is a debt bomb waiting to go off. This is not the time to take on debt but time to pay off your debts if you have them.

In all likelihood having finished your course you will sit in a holding pool unemployed with a frozen ATPL.

If you are lucky and get onto the line how long will your services be required before the next starry eyed wannabe is willing to take your place.

In order to remain in work and maintain currency requirements you will be told to move from pillar to post by CTC and the like with very little time to discuss the ramifications of a move with your family. I can see people living a sort of gypsy existence. Hope your business is commutable.

If I had spare money I would buy a house near LGW and get cadets to pay for it.

That is the way to invest your saved money.

Everyone keeps saying "it's not my fault the deal changed".

Sadly it is, the contract if you could call it that is weighted so far in the favour of Crafty Thieving ( insert your own last word) that anything could happen. And for those just embarking on probably the worlds most expensive flying training should alarm bells not be ringing that it will most probably change again?

I wonder how low it could go? Personally I'd be willing to say that they could make these idiots work for free for three years and there would be lines of little sheep queuing up.

For those justifying it by saying they still get to fly a jet. You can justify anything if you try hard enough. But you are still being bent over and financially screwed just to sit in the RHS of a jet. Your job is worth a lot more than you are getting. And you will never see the terms and conditions at Easyjet you would have received had you all just said no.

I'm glad someone mentioned Colgan. There will be an incident, hopefully very minor, but there will be one caused by the complete lack of experience in the RHS and the extra workload it creates for guys who didn't sign up to be LTC's but sadly spend half their roster being one.

'Back in the day' TP guys spent 3 or 4 years max on decent cash, more than 35k once in the LHs, having fun and learning how to fly. I love the way this is dismissed out of turn as an unnecessary inconvenience. they had a debt of 35k max. They never paid for a TR through their career and were paid full salary from day one at every company. This was only 6 or 7 years ago. What do you think your easyjet CTC job has cost then in real money. I dread to think. a very quick estimate is £150k more than the TP guy in the first 5 years. When he/she would then be joining ezy on full SFO salary.

And yet I met a girl last week who is embarking on the CTC dream! On daddy's ticket too. :eek:

Our dictator friend is very correct too. With Europe on its way down the pan would you really want to be last in at an airline with a lot of exposure to France, Spain, Portugal, Italy and Greece. Not to mention the UK? Couple that with a major shareholder, arguably the most prolific, determined to unseat the board and stop expansion.

Lube up folks!