Article on VUELING pilots living like gipsies
 

Pilotos de Vueling viven en un albergue de un barrio gitano

The article explains that Vueling pilots earn 850 euros/month and they live in a area for gypsies nearby the airport, some of them sleep in their car.

This is the new generation pilots. Welcome to XXIth century. :ok:

I know some guys who have done that in the US, lived out of a van in the airport parking lot, to save money and send some home to their families.. but I didn't think it was goin on in Europe too.

Well, not surprised one bit by this, anyways.

Who do you blame though? The companies for offering such poor T & Cs? Or the very people who are prostituting themselves just to fly aeroplanes?

what about the first unions and captains that allowed companies to do this?
and the first guys who paid! After that there was no way back.

The EU, national governments and aviation authorities actually. They make, amend, and supposedly enforce the rules and laws which the companies have to abide by.

So you are indirectly saying the "cadets" are dragged kicking and screaming against their will, with a gun to their heads to these types of jobs?

There seems to be very little other choice these days for new pilots. Until the powers that be put a restriction on flight experience and make aviation abide by employment laws in regards to salary, working conditions and training then it wont change for the better any time soon.

It will never improve. It can only get worse.

We have to get use to it. New lifestyle. Crappy profession. At least 35 euros to fly all over europe is pretty cheap, that makes passengers happy :cool:


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The unions along with established flight crew are responsible for the management suits successfully perpetrating the scam of P2F and low wages with poor contract terms upon the industry. It's a slippery slope to go down and it'll take a lot of effort to make improvements - assuming they ever do occur.

The one and only reason why these schemes exist is because people are prepared to accept it, that is the only reason. If people didn't pay it, or accept it then they wouldn't be there. It's why they charge you triple for your flowers on Valentine's day, because people are prepared to pay it.
I understand that these types of "jobs" are the only thing open to wannabes at the moment, but that doesn't mean you have to accept a shower of sh** to get there. Do a bit (actually, do alot) of research, and don't do the training if there is nothing open. I mean, the flying schools were still full at the start & middle of the recession, what the hell is that all about? Potential pilots spend £100,000 on an integrated course, and then go and spend another EU35,000 on a TR, £130,000 worth of debt, what the hell is that all about? You'll never pay off that debt in 20 years, it is completely bonkers.
At least one chap has a sensible approach, check out this thread, kudos to him. He's obviously done some good, hard research.
I just despair at the desperation and plight of why people do it, and all just to fly an aeroplane.

The option of P2F and poor contracts shouldn't even be available. Terms and conditions will now steadily erode from the bottom up. Someone may well be sufficiently desperate to work for nothing, my point is that the opportunity to do so shouldn't exist.

But in the absence of a strong union it's hard to see how the cohesion that possibly could have prevented these schemes would have been achieved.

Whatever your personal views on unions, the old adage of " we all hang together or we'll hang separately" is certainly proving true and biting with vengeance.

This is not a news article, it hasn't been published on a newspaper but on an aviation blog. It hasn't been written by a journalist either, but someone behind a nickname. I haven't seen anything on this on Spanish media. I would therefore take it with a massive pinch of salt.

Whatever the name of the journalist is, this is the sad reality, Vueling has now 6 levels of salary!!!! Can you imagine that? All P2F First Officers will be hired on level 6, meaning 850/month (bear in mind they will have spent 25 000 euros to get the job). After 15 years seniority they may reach level 1, which is 2500 euros/month, if they don't loose the medical in the meantime.
It works perfectly, lots of wannabes behind the door, the managers are aware of that, why would we change this system?
Flying an A320 is so good, isn´t it? :cool::cool::cool:


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Industrial Action at Vueling over Easter
 

Trouble is brewing between Vueling management and its pilots.
Apparently, according to a source close to the SEPLA Vueling pilot union, there will be action taken over Easter, between the 17th and 23th of April. related to the cadet issues and other injustices. The Sepla Vueling ( not even two years old ) Union has taken a lot of heat of over these 850 Euros level 6 FO´s and now measures will be taken soon, it´s about time. The union has been pushed to the wall by the draconian management in place, and now.
The Vueling pilot union negotiated a first collective agreement in which the old Clickair FO´s and Old Vueling Captains got a good pay rise but this pay rise for those inside was only agreed to because of the cheap new hire FO´s. In the Vueling collective agreement, improvements such as vacation were made but at the expense of these poor slavelike cadets, who did not exist at the time of negotiations.

Vueling was dishonestly hiding this cadet program from the union, and now Vueling management will pay for this disrespect they have shown to the pilot community. The company has abused the spirit of the collective agreement. Many pilots are pissed off. The time is for the Vueling pilots to be united and support their union and to participate more, as they have been too complacent. The complacency of Vueling Captains has helped create this situation.

Its also too bad that Vueling got so many applications for these postions, with these conditions.

Certain days over Easter are being planned in which the strictest application of the operations manual will be applied as well, and it will be related to the cadets as one of the main issues. An assembly and meeting is coming up on the 14th of March in which this issue will be one of the main topics.

Right now there are cadets on standby on bases ( not their own ) without any pay at all due to the trash contracts that Vueling management has created.

Vueling is doing a lot of trainingupgrading new captains. Vueling needs to hire experienced FO´s to fly with these new Captains .and pay them decently. If Vueling does not fix this new hire cadet program it will affect safety. Passengers do not want to fly on an airline where of the FO´s has been sleeping in a car.

Will it affect safety if management does not improve these conditions, yes


The Sepla Vueling pilot union has just signed an agreement with the Sepla Iberia union.

Finally A Sensible Post
 

Well done Hannibalpower :D that's the exact attitude to have against this p2fly and the only solution to change things! Not the usual moaning against the young p2fly pilot!!! It is the role of the experienced pilot, especially captain and training captain, to be "brave" and to fight against the p2fly inside their airline.
Good luck with the action over Easter :ok:

What dribble; no one makes anyone accept these offered terms, there is no subterfuge.

With oil prices soaring, (not to mention taxes on air travel and Eurocontrol fees), the public need some subsidized seats courtesy of our ultra keen pilots.

I greatly value their contribution to assist my hard pressed wallet and would miss their efforts should they choose to remove their support!

And, before anyone starts crying about fatigue and FTL's, I would point to Vuelings impeccable safety record. Clearly not a consideration. Many Biz Jets (my Op included) are entirely private and have no FTL Scheme.

Please don't dissaude these most helpful chaps in their efforts to prop up cheap air fares.

Who needs experienced pilots when you've got an Airbus.

A storm is coming
 

Thanks for your support Thundebird appreciated.

Vueling´s impeccable safety record is under threat with inexperienced cadet that sleep badly in vans and whom may have financial stress.

The newest aircraft to Vuelings fleet is MSN 323 with 5A1 engines.
Combine this with these cadets and newly upgraded Captains and
Who do you know does low cost with short turnarounds and old aircraft ?


Vueling pilots were not happy with the P2fly but did not have any collective agreement. The Captains salaries at Vueling arent too bad with a lot of experienced ones who came from many different backgrounds. Now many pilots and the guys at the union are downright angry at the disrespect imposed by a dictatorial management. Vueling´s union has been patient and reasonable understanding that pilots want the airline to grow ( new upgrades ) and that there was competition for the production with Iberia, too patient.
Apparently support will come from Vueling´s big brother union Sepla Iberia at the appropiate time according to a inside source. We shall see.

Vueling pilots have been manipulated and abused by management. They fired a guy in Clickair for not paying for a coca cola and another for flight safety reasons.The union has stopped the unprecedented and random firing of pilots and reign of fear that existed in Clickair. The message from Vueling´s management is that if you make noise Iberia will take your flights and give them back to Iberia.

Everyone has their limit and Vuelings management has crossed the line.

All one needs is 500 hrs on type and Asia is wide open for you.
If i had one suggestion to fos,it would be learn all you can,get as good as you can get and move!!
For captains,you can complain all you want,there are high paying jobs in asia.
The problem i believe is not the P2f,if captains agree with low salaries,fos will of course be paid less...
When the majority of captains will go where the money is,fos pay wil get higher as the airline will need upgradable fos and not just replaceable right seaters..

No de facto

If nobody accepted these ****ty p2f schemes pilots would be paid a decent wage from the off.

There are plenty of car/van/caravan pilot dwellers at LGW, in the staff car parks. Mostly non-UK residents, paying minimal taxes above income tax, and working for easyJet and Ryanair. Sign of the times.

In the UK and most other weternised countries it is illegal to sleep in a car or car park. The authorities should move these guys on.

They should also move on the airlines that are loopholing EU employment laws and not paying the government what they are currently dodging in tax and NI contributions.

So, if its true that these guys sleep in vans, where do they wash/shower/crap/iron their uniforms/eat ???? You have to have some level of appearance and hygiene to work for an airline.

To return to the theme of this thread:

From a pure investment point of view, to pay EUR100,000 for a pilot license, another EUR30,000 for a rating, in order to get a salary of EUR850 before taxes...hmm...let me think think about that for a second.

A fool and his money soon go separate ways.

cyfer,

you can wash yourself at the airport toilet. in the middle of the night, there is nobody.you can have shampoo over the sink!

Do I have to teach you how to wash yourself?

for ironing? hang your clothes in your car, and spray some water on them.

for eating? eat sandwich at the airport, free water in the toilet.

clean your clothes?: buy soap, and clean them in the toilet, hang them in your car after rinsing them in the sink.

buy air matrass for your van.

cyfer, this is going to be your life, if you land a job after spending 130'000 euro. welcome in the world of total losers!:E

captain, that is not a life, but a mere existance. Hardly any different from a homeless person sleeping under a bridge. Is there no DIGNITY left in these people ? Hell, if conditions are that bad, and its true that there are so many of the pilots sleeping in vans, then have they never heard of 'sharing' a place ?

...and all this me$$ happens, because stupid and desperate pilots accepting all the low TandC the "management guys" try to implement.
Their fault to accept this cr@p conditions will lower all our salaries more and more.:ugh:
Every single colleague accepting to fly for food (obviously like in VLG, LTO, GMI and others of course) is a potential gravedigger of the T and C :mad:

The low T and C we have actually almost worldwide is just the Pilots fault :yuk:

Really?

Ryanair don't have a base at LGW. There are no Ryanair pilots at LGW. In 5 years working for easyjet I'm yet to fly with a pilot who lives in a car in the staff car park. Yet to see a caravan in any of them either.

Sorry to rain on your lovely story. Nothing like the truth getting in the way eh!

Absolutely right, the pilots who sign these contracts and then start bitching 3 months later are almost as much to blame.

We should encourage pilots no to apply for these positions until conditions improve.

A lot of the ones who do apply are from wealthy families which means they are there for their financial sitatuation rather than pure skills.


When they start getting their paycheque, then will see.

Part of the problem is supply and demand. ****ty economic environement that was supposed to improve and all the airlines that went bankrupt


Lets all take a stand and say no and try to think as a collective. As one.
Lets try to think of the other guy. I remember how hard it was to get a start.

It took longer for me as I never paid for a type rating. I am proud that i never paid for a type rating, but understand that others have too. but hell lets not bicker and fight so much amongst ourselves

Meanwhile management laughs at us while they collect their fatter and bigger bonus cheques.

Do you think we are stupid ?

I haven't posted on here for a fair old while. Mainly because of the absolute polar views. It seems increasingly obvious that many of the people inhabiting this forum are probably too stupid to breath without being reminded.

Let me try and lay this out clearly.
IF "cadets" did not pay to fly, obviously it wouldn't exist.
IF existing crews refused to fly with/train/accept PTF, it also wouldn't exist.

You cannot simply blame one or other party. Both are to blame in equal measure.
What's really interesting is the dilemma that almost everyone I've ever spoken to who has agreed to fund line training (a la Easyjet and OAA First officer plus, which, however hard you try to dress it up isn't REALLY "pay to fly") or truly PTF doesn't WANT to do it. Not one of them has woken up and thought "you know what? I fancy spunking ANOTHER £30k today". They feel it is the only option open to them. You want to stop them paying? Stand up for them - for christ sake, make your airline actually have some standards and recruit properly - if they feel there IS an alternative, you may be suprised. Currently there is NO minimum educational qualifications. Only the qualification that you can get through the required hoops for licence issue.

At the same time, all the experienced people feel that they are being undercut and their privileges stripped away. They feel that any advice they give falls on deaf (or desperate) ears and therefore there's no point in fighting for these jumped up little ****s who just want a jet job straight away. After all "why can't they just get an FI ticket and work their way up, like I had to". Which is totally valid. Why SHOULD someone with 200 hours total experience be able to get straight into the right hand seat of a jet?

Overall this problem doesn't get solved by the self important who claim one side or the other is idefatigably "right". It requires some significant "working together". But of course, that would require people in this industry to look beyond themselves....which sadly, it would appear to be a pre-requisite to NOT have.

yes we are, what do you think it 's going to be tomorrow?

look at the trend, pay for your ppl, cpl/ir, MCC, T/R, line training, hours on type, and even for your captaincy.

if you don't like it, nobody forced you to enter into this profession, right?

years ago, Internet didn't exist, if I was 20 yo again , I would investigate on the internet, and probably do something else.

what's the point to pay 130'000 euro to finish sleeping in a van for 800 euro a month?only fools join this profession.


wrong, there is a big difference, the pilots work 12h a day for pretty much nothing , when the homeless person can do whatever he wants of his day.

Clanger32

Complete nonsense. If that is the only option open to cadets then why are they even training? You don't get it. The flight schools are still full 6 months into a recession. The exam halls are still full half way through the recession, there is no shortage of information out there to be researched, hell it was even front page news for 2 years, yet people plough on with training. You're calling us stupid? :ugh:

The character of flying today is not what it was 20 years ago.

Borrowing and investing huge sums of money in order to be abused by employers that pay next to nothing for very long working days is no future for any young person.

Please, all of you young people interested in flying, get yourself a proper university education (or other) that will earn you a proper income under proper, decent working conditions. Then join a flying club and fly in your free time. You will be much much happier and you will own your time.

For sure those cadets should have never signed that contract,
But why don´t we start from the beginning? Maybe the Caps and FOs already in the company should have not signed the Convenio.
But it is so easy to sign a Convenio like that so you get benefits for you but not for the future pilots joining the company.

Hi All.

1. Vueling´s Captains are agree with the new salary conditions for First Officer because Captain´s salaries have been improved due to the Cadet Program. In other words, a Captain is earning a great salary thanks to his First Officer who is living in bad conditions and SEPLA as well as COPAC are agree as well. All this matter is a mafia.

2. Passengers...they will continue travelling with Vueling. The only reason why they could change to another company would be if Vueling suffered an incident or accident. In other words, passengers, the customer, could see a relation between the bad internal conditions and safety. Passengers are interested in their pockets righ now.

3. Remember... Spanair had an accident meanwhile the company, the employees were under a laboral high pressure. That´s why, Spanair is in trouble and will continue until its extinction.

BR.

LCC :yuk::yuk:

This cadet program has just been banned by SEPLA. Everybody is now hired with the normal Vueling salary. (2000 euros/month).

Lack of experienced FO´s entering
 

This cadet program was so Iberia and Vueling management could suck more money out of Vueling and milk the cow for more.
The Vueling captain salary is still far below the Easyjet salary.

Sepla is making some progress but they have a lot more to do, especially with this cheapo level 6 pay, with a base pay of 800 Euros !

All these new hire cadet dropping the experience level significantly in Vueling.

Experienced FO´s who enter Vueling with more than 2200 factorized ( like Easyjet ) hours will get a higher pay scale,

CEO Alex Cruz wrote ( to influence pilots into signing the collective agreement ) that Vueling would hire experienced FO´s in an e-mail last August, if growth so required. Growth has so required a percentage of experienced FO´s this minimum percentage has not been realized in the new hires. ( They have hired a few experienced guys though.)
Looks like he has not kept his promise to hire enough experienced A- 320 FOs at Vueling.

Why doesn´t CEO Alex Cruz keep his promise and hire some more experienced A-320 FO´s and restore Vueling´s reputation ?

He will learn the lesson that it is not just about profit and punctuality.

Before Vueling has something happen.


Vueling management just looks at the cheapo FO´they are getting. With all the new upgrades. They do not care that experienced FO´s will help increase the safety level with these newly upgraded Captains.


What a surprise Vueling cant find high calibre experienced FO´s at such low scales.

Vueling used to hire more experienced FO´s

Doesnt experience count any more in an airline ?

(Two years from now)

" You were living 'tint car? You were lucky!

We dream't of livin 'tint car, we live't in shoebox in't middle of 't road"

Get up in middle of't night, lick road clean, cycle-nay crawl to't work, fly 200 folk to Alicante, Fly another 200 home, crawl 'ome to gravel pit, pay gravel pit owner to let me sleep in sewage lake......

Suck it up boys you're living the dream!;)