For those who think an accident/incident will stop pax travelling with Vueling, may I introduce you to Garuda, Thai Orient, Air asia, Aeroflot, etc etc

As much as I detest P2F, and even paid TRs, I don't blame the wannabes who sign up for them.
No one can predict what the recruitment market will be like when they finish training. Ask anyone who started in mid 2007 (when recruitment was booming) and finished early 2009.

With the exception of sponsored cadets (when was the last time there was one of those schemes in EU?), we all took a risk with our flight training. Some of us are lucky and emerge into recruitment boom, some aren't and emerge into a period of stagnation.

If you finish your training and the only jobs available are P2F, what do you do? You could take the moral high ground and say "no, I refuse to pay to work" - but what will that achieve? There will ALWAYS be someone else willing to take the job. If you can afford to hold out for something better then you may be lucky. But you'll be sitting there watching you £70k license getting staler by the day while the flight schools turn out hundreds of fresh competitors every month. In that situation, what would you do? If it were your brother/sister, what would you advise them? Would you tell them to hold out, or would you tell them go for the P2F, suck it up for a few years and hopefully move on to a decent job at the first opportunity? I honestly don't know what I'd do.

So what's my point? - Wannabes will NEVER be able to stop P2F schemes and the degradation of T&Cs that they cause.
Management obviously have no interest in stopping such schemes. There is one group of people who are both responsible for the inception of P2F, and this same group are the only ones who are (may be) in a position to put an end to them. These people are of course, current unionised pilots.

Iberia (who owns Vueling if I'm not mistaken) have one of the strongest unions in Europe. If the Iberia union (with the support of some Vueling pilots) went to Iberia management and told them they were going to down tools until P2F was scrapped, how long would the scheme last?
I can't imagine P2F is a core part of Vueling's business model - it obviously improves the bottom line slightly, but would management really be up for industrial action to ensure the scheme continued? I doubt it.

This same principle can be applied to both the BMI and Easyjet P2F schemes (I don't know if these schemes are still operating), both airlines with good union recognition.

In summary, if you don't like what P2F is doing to the industry, don't blame the wannabes that are signing up for it. Blame the pilots/unions who allowed their management make P2F the only option for the wannabes.

BALPA struggle to get even a 1-2% payrise for their members and even then its at the loss of other benefits, usually starting with those of the F/O's. Pilot unions are pretty toothless really and to expect them to be able to put an end to this P2F situation is not realistic at all.

The only way P2F will disappear is if the European Union rules it illegal due to labour laws or if EASA/National CAA decides that it is unsafe. I doubt ether of these things will happen for a very long time unless there is a serious incident or accident, or the media figure out a way to explain and make it interesting to the general public causing some kind of outcry.

I disagree. We've just had a 4% pay-rise and a share scheme (worth approx a further 2.5%) negotiated (amicably) by BALPA. Granted, we did take a cut a couple of years ago to prevent redundancies, and we also have RPI to consider, but it's still a very good deal.
Keep in mind that the 1-2% pay-rise you mention, for the entire pilot workforce, will cost a company much, much more than any lost revenue from scrapping a P2F scheme. A realistic, intelligent union can be quite strong, I think a lack of interest from current pilots is a bigger problem.

How can they afford to live in a car on THAT wage?

It costs me more than that just to insure the Aston! ;)

Welcome to the real world boys and girls, if you want to see just where the next mass of P2F slavering drones are, have a look on the wannabees pages.

Sadly P2F will be here until the safety authorities kill it.

Thankfully something is being done in the states after the Buffalo crash but while the EASA is currently in the pocket of one certain LCC registered in Ireland they seem to be blissfully sailing off in the other direction.

With the amount of negativity P2F generates and the way pilots chastise their employers for running these schemes, you would have thought that BALPA would make it a major campaign to get members behind it and try to put an end to P2F, but last time I flicked through a copy of The Log it even had adverts for such schemes.

As you mentioned, easyJet is one of the highest utilisers in the UK of P2F cadets but also one of the most heavily unionised, so if that airlines workforce isn't prepared or can't act against it, what hope is there?

For BA and Iberia to strike could make a difference but is it really fair to ask these pilots to strike, causing huge financial losses to their respective airlines when those airlines have no involvement with P2F schemes anyway? Especially when they offer good T+C and training to new joiners?

And lets not forget, the company which is blamed for starting all this (Ryanair) doesn't even have a recognised union at all so its crews would just have to carry on as normal, and in fact I'm sure MOL would be more than happy to offer cheap flights to all those pax who would be affected by strike action.

I think what needs to happen is for somebody to point out to their MP or to HMRC or to make some kind of legal challenge to the European courts against business's that are charging for training, not paying minimum wage and handing out unfair contracts. If its deemed illegal (which it should be) then companies just couldn't do it anymore.

Although I didnt always think so, I do now agree with you and think it is wrong to blame wannabees for the P2F. They are just trying to get on the first rung of the ladder and are receiving no solid professional advice on what to do or where to turn next.

However I think the solution lies with the regulators and owners, not the users of, EU airspace.

Exactly. I think it's a case of "isn't prepared" more than "can't". In an ideal world the Easyjet company council would have made it very clear that they would not accept a P2F scheme at Easy. In the same way they would make it clear they were not willing to accept a pay-cut.
The problem is that current pilots have a real vested interest in fighting a pay-cut, but, beyond moaning about it, they don't seem willing to fight P2F.

Perhaps my example of Iberia/Vueling is bad one. What I should have said is that it's up to the current Vueling pilots to put an end to P2F. If they fought it as strongly as they would fight a pay-cut, then it simply wouldn't exist.

The reason P2F doesn't happen at BA/Iberia isn't because we have a wonderful, caring management. It doesn't happen because our management know the pilots simply wouldn't accept it.

True! Plus most of the cabin crew chics just can't smile and are very useless on board the aircraft. Their spaninglish is awful :yuk:


Wrong! Iberia is done! IB is giving lots of their routes to Vueling, with more aircraft and they are now planing to create Vueling Atlantic in order to get Iberia long haul routes as well.
Why would you pay an Iberia A320 FO 5000 euros/month when you can get a Vueling pilot working twice more with no nghtstps for half the salary? Do the maths...

There's still is no P2F at Iberia. I take your point though, I can't understand why SEPLA are letting Iberia management expand Vueling at the expense of Iberia shorthaul, I don't know the history. Perhaps someone in the know could enlighten us.
What I can tell you is that BALPA won't allow BA outsource any flying without a fight - we were about to walk out the door over Open Skies until we got shafted by some bullsh!t EU legislation. I believe P2F would be viewed with equal contempt if suggested by BA management.

Well, British Airways has always been recruiting Direct Entries onto B777 or B747 instead of promoting medium haul current FOs, does it sound great to you and Balpa? Would Air France and Lufthansa pilots allow that crap?

As for Iberia, they will never hire again more people, they will slowly vanish and become Vueling and Vueling atlantic, just like Binter Canarias and Naysa.

Imprimir Página - Iberia decide que Vueling opere algunas de sus rutas

Pay to fly scrapped at Vueling negotiated by SeplaVueling Union
 

The pay to fly is over at Vueling, as the union has finally come to an agreement. An agreement has been made for no more pay to fly pilots in the future. Also all the pay to fly pilots have been given temporary contracts ( and will be paid ) as negotiated by the union. The pay is low

The Sepla Vueling union is new and started in 2009, they need to get tougher and play hardball with their management. It looks they are starting to get tougher as they are starting to gather more support from their pilots. We want them to get tougher against a tough management, they need the support of the Vueling pilots and it looks like they are getting it.
We pilots need to participate more, go to union meetings and support our unions more rather than just bitch.


Sepla Iberia is in negotiations for its collective agreement when the negotiations broke off and did not progress, Iberia has given production temporarily to Vueling until October and Iberia comes to an agreement or decides....


Iberia is putting pressure on its pilots to accept very cheap entry level FO´s. It´s pilots proposed cheap entry level FO´s but management wants them to go even lower

Even if Iberia and Sepla Iberia had come to an agreement, Iberia would have been to slow to have the production ready.

Sepla Iberia wants to sign an agreement with the Sepla Vueling union.
As BALPA and SEPLA have an arrangement. ( See SEPLA-BALPA thread )

Could IAG outsource more work to Vueling in the future ?
Then Vueling could even affect BA pilots a possible scenario ?

Sorry buy Vueling pilots have way better conditions than Ryanair and Wizz and other low cost carriers in Europe. Sick leave pay. If a guy takes extra fuel in Vueling no one bothers him.

I don't believe you have worked for Ryanair, I have.

Extra fuel ? no problem, just make a note on the voyage report.. . . remember the Vueling Capt who was sacked for refusing to fly during the volcanic fiasco ? pot/kettle/black.

Even in a bad month, and certainly if one looks at a whole year, I am 100% sure a Ryanair F/O, contract or permanent, takes home more cash than his counterpart in Vueling.
Agreed it is cr@p, but not THAT cr@p.
If you want to compare Ryanair unfavourably with Iberia, feel free, I will agree with you, but please don't try to say Vueling is a better job. :=
If it is, how come we have SO many Spanish F/O's in Ryanair, none of whom seem to be in any rush to join Vueling ?

Sepla wants a lot of thing but is in reality more and more like a payaso! They don´t have cojones.
Sepla stoped the P2F cadetship but everybody hired at vueling will need to pay 40 000 euros for the TR and circuits (housing not included) and they will have a FULL basic salary of 850 euros. Such a victory.:yuk:


That's right.
And when MOL launches MAD-BCN, Iberia and Vueling will **** in their pants.

When you join BA you take a 5 year freeze on your initial fleet. You are not eligible to leave that fleet until your 5 year freeze is up. If BA have a requirement for 777/747 pilots (or any other fleet/seat for that matter), they always look to existing BA pilots first. They look at all pilots who have served their fleet freeze, and of those, they see who wants to move to the 777/747. If they get enough interest then all vacancies will be filled internally, probably resulting in some DEPs onto the shorthaul fleets that people have vacated.

This training year, there were not enough un-frozen internal bidders for the 747 - hence the DEPs onto the 747.


The system is perfectly fair, reasonable and transparent. By your logic, in times of heavy expansion/recruitment, people would joining and spending very short periods of time on their initial fleet and then moving to longhaul. The training costs would be astronomical, it simply wouldn't work.

When you join you are assigned a certain fleet (which you know of when offered the job). BA simply require that you spend 5 years on it before moving to another fleet. I have yet to meet someone who found that unreasonable.

I don't know what happens at Lufthansa of Air France, so I can't comment.

IMO, yes & yes.

That's why if SEPLA ask for my support (through BALPA), they'll get it. United we stand....

DLH: Not many want the A340 RHS in FRA, now forced upgrades by min. seniority after min. time on type, incl. change of base. Life can be a bitch! LOL

Airline companies make money with their annex outfits (handling companies, engineering companies, TRTOs, etc, etc...) that's why it's no problem for Air France and Lufthansa and many others, including Iberia when it was a powerful airline. Also it is true that AF and LH have A320 and A330/34 which makes the conversion course very cheap. Is "clever" an english word? :)

cojones
 

You are right about the lower pay at Vueling versus Ryanair.
We all agree it is pathetic this Vueling FO pay scheme is not acceptable.

Ryanair pilots do not pay into the social security system in Spain.
At least Vueling pays the healthcare tax seguridad social for it's pilots in Spain.
Yes they pay slave wages but there is a little sick leave pay


catplay and windcheck have you read the BOE and seen Vueling's collective agreement ?

busdriver
you have the right idea about getting united



An example is
It is for me embarassing and sad that a ex cadet now Vueling now with a crap temporary contract who has come from the military to Vueling and with 900 hours of Falcon 900 command time.

I am pissed and I want Vueling pilots and Sepla to grow cojones. they can.
Windcheck what do you suggestt they do to show their cojones strike


it scares them if vueling and iberia pilots get united

How the hell is that this quality guy is getting only a few Euros more than a 200 hour guy.

Vueling does not deserve such a guy at this pay but him sigining up for it screws us all.

Yes STRIKE!!! Go ahead buddies. C´mon!



Otherwise let vueling go, go vueling go, go, go away :}

"Vueling, The first airline of new generation, la primera compañia de nueva generacion" ahahahahh What a laugh!:yuk::yuk:

Well, I personally know an FO that slept in a tent over the summer to save money. His wife wasn't working and he had a small child to support.

Oh, and this is in the UK.

I also know of a guy who lived in a tent and later a van while he was at work as he couldn't afford to rent a second place away from his family while he was working.

Some days ago a friend of mine told me that the guy who posted the story on a spanish forum does not "work" anymore at Vueling (I don't know if "work" is the propper word for a crapy cadet scheme program).
Someone did find out that deepthroat was an insider cadet and the guy went home again (again, i don´t know if home is the propper word to define the place he was living at).

So, that's the new loco wave; maybe worst than a tsunami.

Debts
 

It is pathetic that Vueling management does not understand that experienced pilots help a safer airline. They have no idea what a Safety Culture is and couldnt care less just want their fat bonus check.


These pilots who accept these conditions make it difficult for us all.

But now I heard that some cadets have children to support with mortgages to pay and cannot pay their mortgage. The bank knocking on the door.
Financial stress does not help when these guys fly.
A few of these so called cadets actually have experience.

Going into debt while having the responsability of a A-320 in an incapacitation.

Unemployed pilots are not guilty
 

Hi All,

A friend of mine told me that there are almost 5.000.000 unemployed people in Spain, which means 21 % of population. The highest figure in Europe.

I think that employer take advantage of that situation and nowadays to get a good salary is impossible in the spanish aviation industry as a pilot. Besides, if you want to get a job you have to pay your T.R.

In addition to this, Vueling Captains increased their salarys thanks to the Cadet Program and they were supported by trade union called S.E.P.L.A (Sindicato Español de Pilotos de Líneas Aéreas). Its a bad environment.

Do you think that there is an employee (at Vueling) who has a guilty conscience? Come on ¡¡
The employees: Captains, First officer, Cabin Crew, Maintance, administrator...etc, do not want to be a figure of that number 5.000.000 (Unemploed people)

I´m afraid that Spain will be following the steps of Greece, Ireland & Portugal.

Poor fools thought they had signed up for THIS ! ! :D

What twaddle this circular thread is.

No one is obliged to apply, join or stay at Vueling. I fail to understand the arguement in the thread.

If some 'berk' wants to pay a huge 'dowry' and work for 'Pizza delivery boy' wages in order to support 'Joe Publics' cheap air fares. So what??

I am mightly glad that Air Fares are held artificially low due to fools willing to work for nearly nothing.

And, before some 150 hour Cessna 150 driver pipes up; safety is the responsibility of the regulator not the accountant. When did Vueling last have a hull loss?

If folks don't like it; there remains the option to stump up £15K and fly a Jetstream 31 for Eastern out of Humberside. The eastern uniform looks really cool, you'll attract loads of girls!!

New Year

Sorry but I disagree with you.

Vueling Captain salaries were brought closer to European salaries.
Vueling Captains still make less than Easyjet Captains

The money made from the cadet program is going to the managers only, CEO,COO, and director of training, etc, it is going in their pockets in Fat bonuses, all Vueling pilots work hard at low pay compared to European standards.


SEPLA signed its first collective agreement before the cadet program and achieved a signiifcant increase for the Ex clickair FO´s. 20%, vacation pay, sick leave pay, profit bonus,

It is supply and demand and how many pilots want to fly a A-320 with the amount of jobs out there

The trade off for the improvement was the ****ty cadet pay.
SEPLA should have held out for a better deal and a better cadet pay yes and etc,etc. but the pilots voted 75% in favour of that agreement. Yeah they should pressured more at the time, etc.

It is supply and demand and too bad that they had 1000 applications for the positions at that poor pay.

Hannibal

Why did VLG decide to put an end to the "cadet program"?

Did SEPLA IB have something to do with that?

Is a SEPLA IB-SEPLA VLG cooperation feasible?

Vueling level 6 FO base pay 850 euros
 

Vueling Airlines New Expansion and growth Scenario with Spanair closed puts Vueling in a excellent position in the Spanish market.

The union announced that the proposal to reduce the time that vueling pilots spend remain level 6 Fo pay ( lowest pay level ) and level 4 Captain pay levels had been flatly refused.

The union also announced that the company has not been respecting many partes of its collective agreement.

One of the areas where Vueling is not complying with its collective agreement according to union reps who declared in a general meeting yesterday, is temporary contracts. The collective agreement clearly states that Vueling should hire principally full time pilots with fixed contracts, meanwhile
It is hiring all on temporary contracts which make it very easy to fire pilots and makes sure they colloborate when needed. When this was announced according to the union reps, the chief operating officer stood up and walked away from the negotiating table. This appears to be a provocation according the union delegates stated yesterday.

The union is being provoked and pushed into a future conflict by this new management.

The union representatives stated that many areas of the collective agreement that are not being respected will now go to court.


Vueling is in a big exansion phase at the moment.
Growth of 15 to 20 percent this year correct me if I am wrong.

The Vueling pilot union announced yesterday that it made a proposal to reduce the time

Vueling expansion
 

with Vueling's rapid expansion ( more revenue ) it reduced the number of days off of many pilots without consulting with the Sepla Vueling pilot union.

With the New scenario of operation and growth Vueling managemen feels free to change certain areas of its collective agreement while other areas is does not want to change.

The union needs to be tougher and take more action and now it appears ready to do so.

Even so True with the fuel price increase this it will affect the margins of all airlines.

With the example of Air France pilots need to stand up and be counted as it is the pilots who can make or break an airline.

vueling is punctual because pilots a make a extra effort every turnaround.





By provoking the Sepla Vueling pilot union it could be that Vueling managment
Is pushing Sepla Vueling closer to Sepla Iberia something that is very dangerous. ?

Sepla iberia and Sepla Vueling
 

Microburst,

is a Sepla Iberia and Sepla Vueling agreement possible ?

The new attitude and hardline military stlye of Vueling's new Chief Operating officer appears to be pushing the Sepla Vueling to a hard place. Sadly this new COO is pushing the independant Sepla Vueling union closer to Sepla Iberia, with this draconian style. The complete opposite of Vueling management wants And not in the best interest of Vueling shareholders.

A seniority agreement between Sepla Iberia and Sepla Vueling is extremely complicated and difficult. It was a error of Sepla Iberia not trying harder to adapt to the 2012 situation and coming to a agreement with Vueling's Sepla union, in reference to iberia express. Is it possible yes but only with good negotiating.