For all the 4 stripers out there.....

https://krb-sjobs.brassring.com/TGWe..._5476&GQId=303

Interestingly no requirement for 737 PIC time.

EK

So...brassring....and Zenon...wow. At last all the 737 boys & girls will get jobs!!?????!!!!:rolleyes::hmm::suspect:

Stupid tests
 

I got an email from Zenon last night asking if I would like to go to a jet2 interview day.................. With 3000 + command hours on the 737 I have better things to do than be tested on things that I have not used since I left school thirty-eight years ago and have no relivence to the job.

My advice to the jet2 management would be to save a bit of money by kicking the PC obsessed HR people out and get your pilot management to interview properly qualified candidates, that way common sence gets a chance, rather than the just getting the people who have paid to go on the how to pass the compass test course !

Well, you failed the flexibility and attitude test right there... So you see these tests do work. :}

Smart ass !
 

I see very little advantage to Jet2 to put in place a set of tests that will only show if you have been on the course that shows you how to pass the tests.

The last CRM course that I did was run by an educational psychologist who was of the opinion that the Compass type of testing was a reasonable way of finding out if someone who had never flown was a good training risk, but this type of test was compleatly useless at recruting experienced pilots.

It was this psychologists opinion that for the recruitment of experienced crew the best way was for two management pilots to interview the person for half an hour, they will soon smell a rat if the guy is not up to the job.

So NO RYR you opinion is based on smart ass comment and mine is based on research by a professor of educational psychology, I will leave the forum to decide who is has the correct flexibility and attitude.

You don't need to "go on a course" to pass Compass tests. :rolleyes: They're just maths, memory and a bit of common sense. I agree they're a daft bit of pointless, HR driven nonsense but they're not hard and are just a hoop to jump through if you want the job.

In regards to the Jet2 job you applied for, the options available are: a) jump through the hoops and then get the job or b) go on the Internet and tell everyone you don't want to jump through the hoops and then don't get the job.

Easy.

Spot on - tests like these have been allowed far too much input into pilot recruitment. Your LPC score paints all the picture required and how get on with the pilot manager interviewing you.

Stopstart
 

The point that I am making is that those who have been on the trainning course will be much more likely to perform better than those who have not.

So the result is that recruitment becomes based on who attended the trainning course, and not who is likely to be a better employee.

All of which may be true, but none of which is relevant, because those are the recuitment hoops through which you will have to jump to get a job at Jet2.

I'm fairly certain that A and C isn't looking to rejoin the fold, although I know he would do a good job for us as he did when last I flew with him; however I feel he is right about the value of the compass tests.

4 screw
 

Quite correct the fact I have no wish to join jet2, not because there is anything wrong with flying with them, I just have a job that works better for me.

It has long been an opinion of mine that tests such as the compass test are good for assessing trainning risk for new starters but not for experienced crew. Until the start of last year this was just my opinion untill I attended the CRM course run by this professor of educational psychology, he was quite outspoken about the subject and was of the opinion that a lot of airlines were getting ripped off by the HR companies that are ( in his opinion) mis-selling these tests and had a scientific basis for his statements.

Unfortunatly I think it is the fear of the lawyers that makes companies use such tests because they can point to something in the test if someone is dissatisfied by rejection, it is a lot harder to defend your actions in court if it is just the opinion of two management pilots.

I guess it is just another case of erosion of standards to satisfy the lawyers, just like the reluctance to let people hand fly the aircraft and the pendulum will swing back when it becomes clear that this type of testing is a wast of time and money just as the Air France A330 crash has focused the industry on the errosion of basic flying skills.

All the airlines are making candidates do these exact tests or something similar... EK, BA... even ex-TREs on their 4th logbook. I guess the computer tests and group ex are far cheaper than hiring a sim if thats not part of the process?

I know of people who have each spent in excess of £10,000 preparing for the BA assessment day(s). Interview technique practice, verbal testing, 747 sim hire, etc. Maybe they would have got the job anyway, but I guess it provided them peace of mind.

The jet2 interview is very enjoyable and professional. They really want to get to know you as a person. By comparison I found the BA interviews very staged and artificial.

I agree. Been through both processes and the Jet2 one felt much better than the BA 'give an example of...' type interview.

Spiderman
 

Quote:-All the airlines are making candidates do these exact tests or something similar... EK, BA... even ex-TREs on their 4th logbook. I guess the computer tests and group ex are far cheaper than hiring a sim if thats not part of the process?


Part of the problem with as you say making ex-TRE,s do these tests is that one of the tests that i did (not at Jet2) was using a set of command bars that looked just like a flight director and doing math at the same time, Aha you say easy ! well maybe for the ab-initio or those of the computor game age but when you have to unlearn thirty years of flying because the thing works in the reverse direction it fails to be a fair test for the most experienced in the business.

I know of one company that failed a TRE on the compass type tests and then called him back saying that if they could get him through the compass tests he had a job. As you might expect there were wiser heads in the industry who were keen to aquire his services without him having to go through the Compass test pantomime.

I cant help asking what was this game come to if people are spending £10,000 as preperation for an interview, it seems to be a cash cow for the HR parasites who take money from the airlines to set the tests and money from the pilots for the training to pass the tests.

Surely the fact that some of the candidates have had training in how to do the tests makes the results invalid.

A and C
 

I am with you on this one. I too have been asked in the past to attend one of Jet2's Assessment Days. Great. You have to pay for your own transport and hotel. I can put up with that. Then you have to jump through a few metaphorical hoops to prove that you can add up and interact with your co-workers. What on earth do these people think I have been doing for the past twenty years? I have 13,000 hrs and about 4,000 hrs PIC on the B737. I have lost count of the number of CRM courses that I have attended, some enjoyed, some not. I have been examined by English, Scottish, Irish, French, American, Canadian and Dutch TRI/TREs.
I understand why these type of tests are used for brand new candidates who have little or no experience of flying the line, but to use them for experienced professionals seems completely pointless and a waste of company money. As A and C said a good chat with a couple of management pilots will soon demonstrate your attitude and experience in a much more relevant manner than some hocus pocus codged up by HR people who have no idea what flying the line is about.

Frankly, I find it quite insulting for someone with no flying experience and/or technical expertise to start asking me to prove that I can add up and speak to other human beings. What the hell do they think I do day in and day out flying all over Europe. Beats me.

Yes, if you have never flown the line before, or have very limited experience then go ahead and swot up on this stuff, pass the assessment and get a job. But what does it prove. It proves that if you spend lots of time and money practising this sort of stuff you can get through and get the job. It does not prove that you can fly/manage an aircraft at 400mph, plan the descent in your head (FMCs do make mistakes as we all know), make an approach and land at your destination in an efficient and cost effective way. That's what (some) of the job is about.

DD Boeing man
 

I can quite understand how pilots who have thousands of hours find this kind of testing insulting but I am far more interested it putting the sort of rubbish to bed on scientific grounds.

The professor of educational psychology has studied the pilot recruting industry and has found no way of measuring airmanship using psychometric tests, as this is the most important tool in the pilots toolbox it would seem the only way to get some sort of judgment it to put it in front of two or more experienced pilots, if my old fleet manager would have had his way he would have done this interview in the pub as it would be the best way to get the candidate at his ease............ But I don't think my liver would stand a large recruitment program conducted in such a way !

The last interview that I attended the two guys doing the interview looked like I had interrupted a game of golf, the interview was however searching, I got the job and the training was very deep, the airline has first class CRM and one of the most open flight saftey cultures that I have ever seen and is one of the most enjoyable places I have worked.

All the best and safest airlines I have worked for have been devoid of the HR department getting over involved in pilot recruitment, fortunately I have never been involved with the Arline's that get the most criticism on these forums but coincidently those are the airlines that seem to have let the HR luminarys take over the role of recruting pilots.

With regard to Jet2 all I can say is Philip you are getting ripped off by a bunch of HR parasites and you should go back to trusting your pilot management.

Compass Tests!
 

DC, I agree with you entirely. I was driving into Skiathos with a 35knot crosswind gusting the other day and thinking what has whether I can divide or multiply by fractions got to do with this!!!
Absolute nonsense !!! 25 years in the game nearly 20,000hours and most in command within the airline industry between Scheduled,Charter or best of all night freighting as a cargo animal. (Best kept secret in flying!)
If companies want decent Captains they need to look outside the academic box.
Also have 3 degrees including a masters in Psychology and 6 different ATPLS.
Why should I be asked to divide by fractions by someone that doesn't even fly???
AND for what it's worth our profession has been so degraded that over the winter I work for 110 euros a day for often a 14 hour discretion. That has to be close to minimum wage, here in the UK anyway.
Ok, rant over and I know,,,, If I don't like it leave!!
Cheers
MF

All designed by the penguins to keep us fly boys and girls in our place!

in my in-expert (or perhaps un-expert) opinion the detail that screams 'inconsistency' is that the same group of tests is used for everyone from non-rated fresh out flying school candidates right through the range to TREs. I don't know if the test algorithms take account of the age and experience profile of the candidate, and I don't recall giving the machine much detail about myself, but surely you can't use one test to assess such a range of candidates and expect to get objective, contextual results. I will happily sit through almost any barrage of tests and whathaveyou if there is the offer of a half decent job, an honest employer and proper professional contract at the end of it. I'm not sure that Jet two have got the last bit of that right.

The best folk to sus a potential Pilot are the Reception Staff that sign them in.
If they come in thinking they are God then it won't take much for Reception Staff to catch them in their normal behaviours. Normal Pilots = no problemo