Industrial Action at Flybe?
 

I heard a rumour that things are hotting up and there have been some confrontations between BALPA and Flybe. BALPA have apparently started canvassing opinions amongst pilots.

Anyone care to comment?

BALPA :oh::oh:

BALPA has sent out an update on negotiations along with a questionaire!

"failiure to agree" has been registerd with Flybe management over both pay and new rostering agreement, much dissatisfaction with new pensions policey also!!

Pay - pay freeze last year, BALPA requested 5-6%, Flybe offered 2% pay rise to include annual increment so now only a 0.3% rise or a combined prop/jet salary with the top 4 years nocked off!!

Rostering - to stop the late finish and early start problem that is grinding people down, BALPA scheduling experts spent months recently running new rosters to abolish this problem. At the last dry run management stepped in and just said no!

Pensions - new smart pensions to make savings and tax savings for both Flybe and employee. However Flybe wish to keep the savings made by both company and employee end!!

These are the facts as i see them, stand to be corrected!!
BALPA have asked members opinions and do they have member support for more measures!!

There was a post on "Flybe t&c" thread here that said "if Flybe gave its pilots 2 more days off a month,doubled duty pay and a 10 grand pay rise they would then be at the bottom of the average for the industry"!!

Yes - greatful to be employed, but Flybe is no longer a regional from the channel islands, it is a major european carrier and the employees seem to have recognised this faster than management who just drag their heels!
subsequently most people (pilots and cabin crew) i speak to are looking and appyling else where.

Id say most are talking about looking for work elsewhere, but thats as far as it goes. As much as people whinge about crappy T&Cs, not many actually vote with their FEET!

On the contrary, people will vote with their feet and bugger off, problem is they just won't stand together!

Serenity,

Just to correct you on the SMART pensions. Flybe have offered to share the company savings (employees keep theirs anyway), but just not a big enough slice to be given to the pilots for BALPA's liking. It took a bit of persuasion by all accounts, but that is the current state of affairs.

As far as the combined prop/jet payscales, only an issue for captains (as is usual with BALPA's negotiations) as there are very, very few 9yr FOs knocking around the company and if the doom merchants are correct, that is unlikley to change. In fact, they would also have you believe it shouldn't be an issue for skippers either as everybody is leaving apparently. :rolleyes:

Indeed. Flybe want to share 50% of the employer savings out equally amongst ALL employees. BALPA's point is that as the pilots generate a huge slice of the employer savings figure due to our higher pension membership and higher salary contributions. Hence, we should see a higher % share of the savings that reflects this. Pretty fair I think.

Pilots generally will complain about Ts & Cs, and in the case of Fly BE the complaints would seem justified. You may well be warming up your escape plans, but It appears to me that there aren't many places to go, and that most of the places to go are probably in the Middle East at the nearest, and the number of people who are willing and able to make that move will be limited so maybe it is time for pilots to show a bit of solidarity and community spirit (The BIg Society idea perhaps) and provide a bit of resistance to the company policy. You pay a fee to BAPLA to be a member so why not get a bit of value from it instead of reading the Log, and then moving off somewhere else.

Just to put this into context I have been out of work for about 18 months having been made redundant from a low cost airline and really hope to get back into an aeroplane soon (as a pilot). Fly BE is looking like one of the very few that might be able to offer me a job, and I would like it to be a decent offer seeing as I will probably be bonded for 3 years or so before I can make another move if necessary.

Even if you are hoping to move off to another airline or another country you owe to yourselves to make an effort to improve Fly BE's Ts & Cs: your escape plan may not come to fruition as soon as you expect so why not make the place you're at a bit better for your self before you move on and improve your career?

I maintain that airlines like Fly BE have two types of pilots: those with escape plans, and liars! Good luck to all of you in your efforts to get a better place to work be it improving Fly BE or moving elsewhere.

Pilots striking will not be supported by the UK travelling public, and that is a lot of public in FlyBe terms - "Pickets In Porsches" will be headlines - regardless of what you earn at FlyBe, your earning potential is far greater than the average UK worker...

It's a crackin' UK product and service, I hope for those whose lifestyle it suits get this sorted...I laugh at UK companies now who have a mission statement these days that staff are their number 1 asset - what a joke...

Public support is irrelevant in terms of industrial relations. It shouldn't even be a factor when it is time to decide to walk out or not. Of course it would be unpopular, how could it be otherwise?

Left flybe a couple of years ago.

I genuinely mean it when I say my blood pressure is sooooo much better for doing so. I dont earn a humongous amount now, but at least me and the future Mrs CB can afford to eat out a few times a month, take a couple of holidays a year and not worry about the cars MOT bill.

I have many great memories but acromony in the flight deck towards Exeter management was as tangible then as I'm told it is now - albeit we were pissing and moaning about other stuff back in 08.

Exeter have to-date hedged their bets (and lets face it have been proved correct thus far) on the pilot workforces inability to mobilise and respond with a collective voice.

Answer the question: Who is to blame for the above (underlined)

CB

Royston Vassey
 

You're presuming everyone wants to fly longhaul and live abroad. Sorry, but your lifestyle doesn't appeal to me I'm afraid.

I'll be the first in the queue to back BALPA should it come to it, but I'm afraid the actual job isn't what's p*ssing off people. It's actually quite good fun :ok:

Serenity
The easiest way to stop the early / late issue is to get a variation that allows more than 3 earlies on the bounce (with subsequent days off afterwards). Why dont Flybe look at that? :\

Backbone
 

I agree with much of the above and feel now is the time for BALPA members to show some backbone to support BALPA negotiations. If that fails then as we all know there are other options to force management to the negotiating table. I would suggest that the prospect of a strike in Flybe at a time when they are seeking to list the company is the last thing management want and that will provide additional leverage to aid BALPA's cause.

The most important thing right now is to stand firm and finally make this airline a place people might actually want to stay. There are few alternatives to run to at present, although I suspect that may change in the next 2 years...

Desk-pilot

:D

There are many of us at FlyBE who love the flying and living out in the regions, and hope to continue until retirement. I spent the first 20yrs of my career spending long hours airborne, and have had the unfortunate pleasure of sand between my toes - I have no desire for either again. All I ask for is the same pay deal the rest of the company got, a long-term aspirational payscale, and a better realised scheduling agreement. I sincerely hope that BALPA and management can reach a compromise quickly as both are currently making unreasonable demands and I detect a hardening of attitudes that wont help either side in the long run.

Sort out the roster first! It is the main reason I left, the money was the second.

If the roster got sorted out, I would go back. I loved the flying and the people.

Good lifestyle or Good money, either is an enticement for staff retention, but if neither improve then it is a recipe for exodus at first opportunity for most.
:=

From a point two months ago where the company announced to the CC that the late finish-early start is an integral part of the business model we are now told it is something they are committed to making movement on with the union.

Is this the same sort of commitment they made four years ago but failed to deliver on?

Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me.

That 0.3% aside the newsletter was the most obvious example of divide and conquer that this company has ever produced.

They also imply that the Dash pilots chance of getting on the jet are slim to none. However, you can have a common payscale which will benefit only the Dash fleet.

Did you Dash guys find that motivational?!

Not exactly a rush for the door, then?

At this stage of the game, with an important ballot about to take place, the company are trying to minimise the strength of the mandate which hopefully the workforce are about to give BALPA. I expect colleagues are able to recognise wishy-washy, double-speak promises for what they are. Weak mandate for BALPA = Management win and we all enjoy another five years of lates finish, early start and below industry standard conditions.

On the other hand if BALPA get a strong mandate then management have to negotiate in a genuine and productive fashion, settlement is reached, goodwill returns, Ts and Cs improve and company wins in the long term.

I think he's clinging on to the hope that if he says it enough times we might actually believe him. 'Fraid we've long gone past that!

Again, he's trotted out this line so many times that everyone knows it's total spin. A bit like the boy who cried wolf one could say.

BALPA must be laughing their socks off at that latest newsletter. If they needed anything to back up that the management are taking us all for fools then that was it. He must know that we know that he knows that we know it's actually 0.3% so why just wind me up by trying to insult my intelligence? As for the lates to earlies, been told this so many times I stopped listening years ago :ugh:

Quite. It's time for the management to act upon their sentiments. Time for all of us to support BALPA in their quest to negotiate reasonable pay & scheduling. Hopefully a reasonable compromise can be reached quickly and painlessly, though if the management intend remaining as disingenuous as they have been, then who knows.....?

It's happening CC, later rather than sooner but it is.

I can't be the only one to notice a subtle but quite significant shift in peoples' attitudes?!

To be fair to our chief pilot, who I believe to be a decent person, I guess his hands are somewhat tied by budgets and the political sensitivities us Flybe pilots know about. He must know that we know that what he says in the newsletter are utterly vacuous cliches at best and downright disingenuous misrepresentations at worst, but his job is to represent the management position...

However, if he was on our side and wanted to subvert the situation subtly by seemingly pleasing his masters, but actually insulting the intelligence of anyone left who's still unsure and thus galvanising support for Balpa, then his last newsletter would do it I reckon!

It's a shame that BALPA can't (or more likley won't) galvanise support for BALPA. If the union could bother itself to pro-actively seek to increase membership, then maybe they might achieve something beyond bellyaching from the sidelines.

Still, you lot voted for them, so reap what you sow.

That's very helpful. Thanks for your comment.

If you convince the directors that you are angry and that 80% of you will actually carry out the threat to strike, you'll win and there will be no strike. I speak from experience.

I for one am about to dig my BALPA lanyard out and put it to some use and i would urge everyone else to do the same. Might only be a small thing but at least it shows our support.

Do the management really think we are accepting all the dribble that is written in the newsletters? It just proves to me how little they value us, in fact each newsletter that comes out makes me even more angry at the way they treat and disrespect both us and BALPA.

They are not commited to resolving any issues if its going to cost 1 pence more than it does at the moment. All they want to do is show how much money they can make so they get top money when they float the company.

Now is the time to stick together and get what we really deserve!!!

BALPA
 

My Balpa lanyard never came off and interestingly there's a real change in sentiment afoot on the flight deck. I think people have finally realised that the company has been playing games with us for years and it's time to stop the ludicrous erosion of both quality of life and terms and conditions. BALPA is the only opposing force that can improve things.

Desk-pilot

Or a Spanish work to rule!

:E

Where do I get a lanyard?!?!

I have just added this rant to the Virgin thread! It is not quite so topical as in, relevant to current "conversation" but none the less think it is worthy of inclusion on this thread...

I'm really sick of people saying "there is a q of pilots as long as your arm ready to work" and "pilots are completely replaceable"! That is just not true. It takes much time, effort and money to become a pilot. So there may (at the moment) be people with CPLs, ATPLs or even ATPLs with loads of hours hanging about waiting for a job but.... a notice period is in the region of 3 months, a type rating is 15 to 25 THOUSAND pounds plus, training takes 2 months plus and costs a company MONEY (uniform, hours, company spiel, admin etc). You are not just an office worker who can move stuff out of a desk and someone else can move in. A company that has a disruptive workforce will cost it dearly. Something most cannot afford at the moment. Someone stated on the Virgin thread stuff about about booking a holiday with Virgin cause the perceived service is better ect. but the important point expressed is that they wanted to "avoid the strikes" so booked with Virgin (rather than BA). This shows what massive damage can be done to brands. Do not undervalue the professionalism, the skill and its uniqueness of this career. That statement goes to company management but more importantly to pilots. I have taken much interest in this thread and the hardships of pilots at Flybe but please can everyone stop saying there is an immediate crowd of pilots ready to jump in at the drop of a hat. Cabin crew can be replaced with relative ease to keep a schedule going but pilots cannot.... FACT!

Phone the nice people at BALPA and they'll pop one in the post for you.

largegerorgejones

That may be the case for airlines such as Virgin etc, but Flybe is a different beast. We generally recruit ab-initio pilots and pilots with the basic fATPL. These pilots do not need to give 3 months notice etc and can replace experienced pilots who have moved on almost "on a whim".
Whilst they have to go through the rigmarole of inductions, paperwork and type ratings etc most will be able to "start" as and when the company requires. You can bet that if the company said "Can you start next week?" most would say yes, and with more hold pools than any airline have ever seen in their lives there is no shortage of low time pilots waiting to start.

1 week induction
2 weeks TR groundschool
2 weeks simulator
1 week faffing about with days off, getting TR issued and base training etc.
As soon as they are line training they are on revenue flights, end of story.

CC

G-SXTY

Only if he/she is a member of BALPA? :ok:

CC

Your analysis of organising training courses for ab initios in a company like Flybe is correct.

However, the question is how much slack is there in the line training system, and what happens when the CAA starts taking a long hard look at experience levels, especially if it's Captains and Senior FOs that lead the exodus and you forced back to rostering ab initios with low hour skippers.

It's happened before and it's not pretty.

Jimbo and the team are not known for their sympathy towards crew, and will be relying on the fact the mass exodus can't happen at the moment to keep the boot firmly on necks.

You have two choices really, get behind BALPA or let management get behind you with the sand impregnated lube....

My plan was to get one and continuously flick the management in the eye with it till they improve the terms and conditions! What could be more annoying than having a BALPA lanyard continuously flicked in your eye?! You would surely give in to any requests given enough flicking! No? No one with me.... a sentiment of support rather than a fighting move! Stupido!!

As I understand it, just about all the hold pool pilots are lined up for courses which will barely begin to address the current crew shortages. If more are needed, will enough be available who are in current flying practice? If not that spells a much greater training risk. Also in the slightly longer term, there may be a much reduced supply of ab-initio pilots, as flying training loans will be much more difficult to come by with the squeeze on credit.

The last news letter certainly appeared to harden attitudes against the management, and with several weeks of the consultation left, I hope it will have strengthened the support for BALPA.

As for the pension changes, as well as the previous comments, the proposed sharing was only going to be introduced next FY, with ALL savings this year being kept by the company!