I have heard mention that Easyjet actually 'need' 200 FOs, is this for real? With only 6 new aircraft coming online? I'd be EXTREMELY cautious about signing up for this. Come on, this is a joke of a scheme. Where do these people find their money? It can only be from their parents homes. I was lucky enough to earn excellent money prior to flying in order to pay for my training, I don't believe everyone can afford 140Ks worth of payments though - it's insane.

And people say Ryanair are crooks....

Are they still planning on hiring FO's through the "normal" TRSS method, or is this rip off scheme going to put paid to that as well? I know there are plenty of high time turboprop guys who have been hammering ezy with CVs throughout this downturn and got no news, it's a real kick in the teeth for them if this scandalous nonsense with Oxford and CTC kids becomes the only way into the company now :ugh:

Lucky Sky Todler,

Who is the cheapest one to press the button and do fuel checks in cruise? The experienced pilot TRSS or the bloody cadet fron CTC, Oxford, Jerez, etc ?..

Who is more likely to put the trouser down and accept ****e salary and ****e conditions to fly the "big toy" ? The experienced pilot or the other one ?

Who is the most expensive to train ? the experienced pilot or the cadet who will need more sim, more line training? (remember, those private schools are here to make monney, not to offer a dream for free)

Finally what does low cost means ? is it compatible with high paid crews doing 2 sectors a day or hourly paid crew ?

easyjet is finished. Go to Ryanair, at least they have better bases, better incomes, better aircraft, better network, and better roster :)

I am astonished to say it but you are right. Ryanair will win this one and I very much hope that Easyjet suffer. Ryanair are the better airline to fly for.:eek:

Yes the ryan deal is better now, but when old pikey gets wind of these watch this space....

these 2 airlines will both systematically destroy FO's - no way will Pikey continue with the same contract when he finds out, he will drop his t+c, and after he does again, give it a few months and easy do the same.

The only way to recover from this spiral descent is not to take these deals!

Think about it, when shops cant sell a shirt, it goes into sale. If new FO's refuse this slavery, money goes up.

Is there no lawyer around here that can examine the contract, it must be below min wage.

A great deal
 

Please do not dismiss this deal, I have also heard a rumour that it includes the following:

- video tape of your first take-off & landing
- photo opportunity outside the aircraft, in a unique EZY frame
- signed certificate from the captain
- opportunity to make tannoy announcements in your best pilot voice
- graduation dinner on finish with your fellow aces

:DFANS. I have to agree.

This deal seems to degrade low houred cadets to 'toursit stlye sight seeing trips' that cost an arm and a leg. Or 12.

I've said this before on Pprune, no economic graph is one directional. Let's hope the turn in this graph will be upon us ASAP, and then T&C's will follow suit. Could be a while though.

I think it its totally shameful and makes a utter mockery of those who get involved in this pay to work scheme.

How come the European commission has never questioned the validity of this? The CAA ? Why havent the the Newspapers ever published a story of this practice?

I'm sure there must be a hack out there willing to highlight this immoral practice by shaming all parties involved.

At a time when BA are going on strike this would make a great story me thinks.

:confused:

Uni

I'm not condoning this type of deal in any way whatsoever, but before all us pilots feel hard done by then have a look at this:

Graduates 'paying £8,000 for internships' - Telegraph

unfortunately in Gordon Browns brave new world, this now appears to be the norm in getting 'work' in any industry.

Obviously it is all unsustainable and will all go pear shaped at some point - but when? 1 year, 10 years? who the hell knows.

Can you imagine newly qualified Doctors paying for 3 year temp con-tracts, where £'s per hour are awarded for an unkown period of time!?

Doctors have a 100% fail rate; everyone dies at some point.
Pilots must have a 0% fail rate....

Pilots are not doctors.....
Pilot training had NVQ status
ATPL was NVQ level 4 = ( HNC / HND)

I think it is important to have a sense of what is true and what is not. Loathe as I am to admit it, right now anyone who has any choice whatsoever should not darken the door of easyJet but go straight to Ryanair. Tragically, for new joiners, Ryanair are significantly better. That does not mean they are good employers - it does mean easyJet are signficantly worse for anyone outside the protection of the union (which right now are all crews joining from CTC/Oxford etc).

All of the above is true. What is not true are the ridiculous assertions that

I have always tried to give a balanced view on these forums - part of that is telling the truth about where we are at the moment. Right now easyJet is about as bad an employer for new pilots as you could find on the planet. However, not all Ryanair pilots have better incomes than easyJet's - many do not. Also at easyJet we fly brand new Airbuses which the overwhelming majority of ex-737 pilots much prefer. We have a fantastic safety culture, great access to computer performance calculations etc and better operational support. I work at Gatwick and would challenge you to find any airline in the world that has a better route network than we do in terms of variety and breadth. I have worked there 6 years and have still not flown to all our destinations. I have also looked at Ryanair's roster, which I do not knock in any way as it has a number of plus points. Nonetheless, given a straight choice, I would choose ours. That, folks, is a balanced view on the situation and I hope the more rational readers here will be able to tell truth from fiction.

cjd; I'm not comparing Dr.s to CTC cadets. I have numerous friends who have slogged through 7+ years of hard graft to become pillars of society, and I'm proud to be their friend.

My point is that, like medicine, an aviation career is an expensive, long slog, ultimate vocation. And it is dreadful that the aviation career is becoming so degraded that it no longer rewards hard work but rewards deep pockets with expensive contracts. . .

I'm on the same page as you my friend!

Norman is right, of course, but I think the more tragic thing is that a man of his honesty and decency works an organisation that conceives of its relations with him so thinly, that his commitment to it is in no way matched by their commitment to him.

Anyone possessed of a longer term view of such things as are ours in the air will draw their own conclusions. It is my hope that, in the fullness of time, so too will Norman. Much as I'm sure it irks you to hear it for now, old friend, you have the heart and soul of a Ryanair pilot. Do come on over, won't you?

All the best for now,

Leo.

Sh*t or Sh*te
 

Quote:
easyjet is finished. Go to Ryanair, at least they have better bases, better incomes, better aircraft, better network, and better roster http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/sr...lies/smile.gif
I am astonished to say it but you are right. Ryanair will win this one and I very much hope that Easyjet suffer. Ryanair are the better airline to fly for.http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/sr...milies/eek.gif


Pretty much like saying: I don't like elephant sh*t, i prefer the dog sh*t
:mad::mad::mad:

Windcheck,

Who are the ones who CAN actually try and put a stop to this? the inexperienced OAA cadet looking to fly a shiney new jet or the experienced EZY pilot?

It's all good bitching about the cadets but the people in the industry are the people who can actually make a difference. Too many old beans sit comfy in the LHS not giving a toss about how the industry is going in terms of the RHS because it doesn't affect them. Well the T+C's are being erroded from the bottom up.

No, people have to train somewhere sonny jim. Oxford are an opportunistic bunch of parasites. CTC had an agreement to supply pilots to Easyjet. Everyone has been aware that that was coming to an end this Winter. Oxford have gone in there and said they have a bunch of 'young, dumb and full of cum' rich mummy and daddies children who would happily pay for a TR with their company. Easy have probably suggested something in line with Ryanairs TR deal. Oxford, to seal the deal, have offered something that bit worse, knowing the calibre of the individuals they are dealing with, in order to get a 'foot in the door' like the rest of us. For CTC, the rest is history. What both Oxford and CTC have done, contrary to how they probably feel, has made themselves look very silly and devalued and degraded their own product.

Please could one of the 115 'poor, you don't know me, I worked for my money (course you did)' Oxford space cadets that signed up for this deal come on here and explain themselves......if their balls have dropped yet.


Just like it.

:ok: Spot on, old sport! So to avoid the unnecessary tragedy, the people working for employer treating them like excrementa, should be of low moral standards themselves and ready to stab their employer in the back at the first opportunity.

The strategy used by Brookfield/Ryanair, and seemingly emulated by EasyJet/CTC, is a valid one (for the MGT) provided that a) crisis is going to deepen, everything goes to hell, anyway and it's time to grab as much as you can before everything collapses, or b) crisis will become permanent and therefore used as a stick to discipline the workforce. If upturn ever comes, some airlines will find out that pilotless transport aeroplane hasn't been certified, let alone made yet. Not to their top management chagrin, of course. Their retirement provisions are quite raid-proof and able to last them for a couple of centuries or so.

Last weekend's "Lunch with the FT" column was very interesting, to say the least.

Anyway, now that you mention the "Eastern European cheap pilots menace", do you have any idea how many pilots are waiting behind the rusty iron curtain to be unleashed upon flightdeck jobs in Western Europe? I'm asking because seemingly Roland Berger is quite clueless about it and anyone following their advice is bound to get hurt.

What is currently happening is not far removed from the status in the early 1990s. The economy was in recession and jobs became more scarce. Those that were hiring paid peanuts for inexperienced pilots - ask anyone who worked for CityFlyer Express about the poverty wages on offer and they will no doubt tell you how bad it was. British Midland - as they were then known - did a scheme whereby pilots paid for a 737 type rating with no promise of a job thereafter and you had to have passed at least the technical exams to get an interview with any turboprop operator.

As an out of work pilot I considered all the options and decided to go down the instructor route until things got a little better - in any case paying for a 737 type rating with no promise of a job was not financially possible for myself. The end result was that I did eventually get that first step onto the airline career - almost 4 years after gaining a CPL/IR and frozen ATPL - and I am now a Captain with easyJet. Along the way I passed the ARB for both the HS748 and Shorts 360, but flew neither. Others decided to pay for the type rating and worked for the appropriate operator, though in some instances several months after they completed the course.

The point that I am making is that either you take the offer that is on the table or you find some other way into the profession. If you do not or cannot accept what is on the table, unfortunately there will always be someone else who can and will. Until people stand together and unanimously say no, these schemes will exist. Go instructing, try to find yourself some work flying a light twin, how about flying a Caravan round Africa? Who knows, you may actually enjoy it! There are plenty of things you can do other than jump straight into the RHS of a shiny jet, and most of them are more fun!