Yes ATS, I fight for the cause of many of us pilots who would like things to change.
There is a pilot union that we hope will help us in the process , there is a plan in place in order to start the recognition process, there has been an audit between FR pilots made by BALPA to understand our viewpoints and feelings for the company, many of us have their own ideas and suggestions on how to improve both the economics and the working standards...to cut a long story short many pilots are actively involved in this and hope that in a couple of years from now we could finally be over with this whole issue and work in a different environment than the one we aer in today.

Obviously for you everything is fine and I hope it will always be, unfortunately for many of us things are not fine at all.


But I agree with you, let's wait and see.

One thing though I would like to ask you: please look at FR not only as your shiny (in your opinion) EMA base but consider there are other 32 of them spread around; try to see the bigger picture instead of your little backyard.

leo selective quotations from me would hardly be grounds on which to adopt or drop a campaign of any sort.frustration at time has led me to lash out but this time we are organised and in pursuit of change.you and your chums from ema are not going to stop it.

dignity and respect do come from within but can be influenced to the good or bad from without.we will improve it from without.you might even pick some up yourself.

May I ask one final question, requiring as simple an answer as possible? So far in all the threads something is not quite clear.......and again may I say I am NOT in FR and this is purely out of interest for the industry.

To all those in the anti-union camp posting on this thread:

Is base closure and job loss threats your ONLY reason for being anti representation? APART from that, what are your real concerns over representation? What do you think BALPA involvement will NEGATIVELY do to FR? What do you feel, in general, across the industry is bad in a united workforce? It is obvious why management despise unions, but why the staff body? Please no angry responses, just clear answers...so far all I read is "dont join BALPA they do nothing for you"! well if so, then their involvement is no concern but if they DO have power, how will that power negatively affect the staff?

Powdermonkey,
I love my base. It was first choice, 20 min from my home, family, friends. Great colleagues, all new a/c, great routes....etc. It will close if Balpa are recognised.
I love my job for 1000 and 1 reasons. I will probably loose my job if Balpa are recognised, if not then i will loose my allowances, my 5/4 roster, my leave allowance will be altered, if im not sacked then ill be shipped off to another base (see above why i dont want that).
Those are just two aspects of how Balpa will negatively affect staff. Not forgetting, the cabin crew, engineers, ground staff....etc that will loose their jobs. At my base thats around (incl pilots) 400 staff at least. At one base.
The only power Balpa would have is to "negotiate" with Ryanair, who have already stated they will not negotiate. So the next step Balpa could ask us all to strike...and then the same thing happens - base closures, redundancies....etc.
The fact is Balpa have just said "Join us and we will change something somewhere at sometime, possibly, maybe"
They have not said what they can and will do. I know that "balpa is you" as people keep saying - but those people who have organised this campaign have not said what we are exactly fighting for. Dignity and respect - i have plenty of that. That means nothing to me in terms of what Balpa could achieve. If Balpa could say to us "we will achieve XXXXX" then they would have a few more supporters. However all we see daily is Balpa failing to achieve anything. Just ask Dan-air pilots, BA guys...etc The unemployment list seems to be growing.
Neither I nor any of my fellow pilots at my base want to be in that queue.
The sooner Balpa is rejected the better.

CommandB....
I fully understand the fears of every staff member not to mention all other indirect employees who benefit from the Ryanair footfall. So ALL this is PURELY based on reprisals if the staff don't play the FR way!
Essentially......no matter what FR decide to do in terms of workforce management / renumeration in the future, you guys will just have to suck it up or leave, but you will never be in a position to fight your corner!
:ouch:
Only one winner here, the shareholder! Things may be within an acceptable bracket for you guys now.....but the likely hood is it may just not be worth it in the near/far future!

The majority of us were completely happy with the job before this Balpa stuff started. Obviously there are always, in any job, going to be 1 or 2 people who dislike the way the place is run. However, as in any previous jobs I have had, those people have walked away and found other jobs which they prefer. Seems to me like thats what you do if you dislike something....? So the question remains why dont people do exactly that?

Also, in any job, if you dont do what the company wants - you are disciplined, so to speak. This is the way it works. If an EZY pilot disregards the company rules, he will be taken for tea and biscuits. Same at BA, same at FR. So yes, the reprisals from Ryanair are somewhere up there on my list of why I dont want recognition. But it goes ALOT further than that and of course it is not totally based on what RYR have said.

To put it bluntly -
Balpa in Ryanair = job losses for 1000's of people.
Id prefer to keep mine.

"but you will never be in a position to fight your corner" -> As i said at the start - the majority of us are happy with what we have and we certainly dont want Balpa "negotiating" redundancies for us like they have done so well for other airlines.

CommandB,
OK, so let me see if I have this correct.

Your base is only going to close if BALPA are recognised? There is no compelling financial or business reason for your base to close; the closure of the base will only occure if the pilots democratically vote to have a basic right recognised?

Please tell me if I have misunderstood the situation.

If the situation is as described then it really defies belief that there are so many blind to what management are up to.

I get it and of course employees must play by company rules, as pilots, we always ( mostly) observe the rules! The general point I was making was this:

there may come a day in the near future whereby you will NOT be happy with conditions imposed on you....lets say your 1 month off becomes 2...or maybe 3...and as is the case with some, not all, the current months off are very close to consecutive...followed by too many standbys ( see large bases with line training periods) and now the way of life you have is no longer very manageable, and you are forced to find bar work for 2 months ( actually happening in current climate). Will you then just say, Ah well thems are the rule, better start knocking on doors....and we all know how difficult that is!
If that is so, all the best...but I can't EVER see FR and the way they operate say, you know what, we have loads of money, lets reward our hard working staff! As long as money can be saved/gained by squeezing the workforce, and continuelly moving the goal post, it WILL continue as long as everyone accepts it.
IT IS MY GENERAL VIEW, and I fully admit I may be mistaken, as I am only observing this..but it kinda looks that way to me. I SINCERELY hope that any reduction in hours/pay/condition are based on current economics and making sure that these conditions are imposed solely for the benefit of all and the continued success of FR.....but I really don't think that management has yours or any other employees best interest at heart!

Base Closures
 

GUYS! FOR THE LOVE OF GOD!
Closing bases or not has absolutely nothing to do with BALPA recognition or not. Its an excellent threat, because obviously FR have closed bases before. However, what most people here don't seem to understand is that MOL might be running the show, but he is not in charge. The SHAREHOLDERS are the people in charge. Picture MOL telling the shareholders he is closing all the bases in the UK.... You think they would agree..... After all, I would say that the UK bases are probably the ones bringing in the most cash to FR.

commandb - what is your basis for your wildly speculative remarks.do you think that ryanair is only keeping the base open for your benefit.surely in ryanairs model,if the base is profitable it stays open,if not then it must close.i cannot se where your immature and irrational reckoning comes from.
you say,if balpa recognised then 100's of job losses,so is that then true that ryanair is only profitable and able to make a profit because pilots have no voice,input.your irrational reasoning assumes that balpa and the pilots in ryanair have no positive contribution to make to the success of their company.have more confidence in your abilities and if ryanair ever do close that base,i hope that it won't tip you over the edge.you and the slim/abusing wonder team seem to think that the world stops outside your base.go for a walk this evening,you won't fall of the face of the planet.

Just a simple question to all the management clowns here: if the company decides to close a base (which they won't do of course, but that's the best these moppets have come up with), would the airport not have a case in suing RYR for breach of contract? On one hand publicly blame the £10 tax, internally blaming BALPA? Sounds like a no brainer to me.. arm the airport's lawyers with a selection of the EW,DOB and PB's documents, job done! And that's a few millions gone then. Not to mention the loss of pax to ezy or other. How are they going to justify themselves here? It just blows my mind how any pilot can believe any of this. And please all the June/July '09 union-busting joiners spare me the "we are going to lose a 1000 jobs, get fired, the sick mother story and the poor engineers". What if this was all a bluff, smoke, just to keep a few crapping themselves? Big mistake if you ask me! Should I mention these tactics lack any morality? Silly me..

TRSS, Leo and all the "I'm all right Jack" clique are working hard at dragging the debate around base closures and alleged job losses in a company that is forecasting 300M profit this year and has orders for another 100 Boeings. Let's get this back on the subject of recognition, true negotiations between management and pilots. To be recognized as professionals who have their say in the t&c's. Let the majority democratically decide if they want to stop the downward spiral. Let's keep the kids who have just borrowed 33K (and the rest) the choice between permanent or contractor. No setting up a dodgy Ltd company in EI controlled by a few obscure accountants. A transparent pay scale, an A/L system that is fair and tranparent. The few hardcore company defenders do not represent the majority of pilots. As for the 2 moppets mentioned above they are just looking after no1, show management how good boys they are at a**-licking to safeguard there own future.. Let me guess Leo, you probably are "floating" BRK paid at the "old" brk rate, what would you care if a base closed? And TRSS, you'll be all right Jack, with all that good work I bet you EMT will have a vacant position for you.. good boy. Won't lose your job or base after all, hey? Pathetic!

Isn't it possible to close a base and keep flying there from other bases?

And I would be surprised if there were any longterm contracts with airports. One of the stronger points of Ryanair has always been their ability to give up bases and under that pressure negotiate better terms.

If MOL can keep Balpa out by temporarily closing UK bases and forcing out all brookfield pilots he can keep ryanair's financial position strong without being slowed down by unions like BA currently is.

I think he'll take up the challenge. Worst that can happen is a penalty fee by some government or law institute which he can pay easily. That's aside from the fact that he probably has seen this coming and covered all his contracts pretty well.

Believing that this won't happen is probably as naive as believing that you won't need a union in the future. Since only the UK bases are voting, I wouldn't be surprised that they're going to prefer their short term future in favor of their long future, which they probably won't have if balpa gets in.

It's a bad situation.

djanello - anything is possible.but to foresake balpa recognition on this basis is pure foolishness.why would a base be closed solely because the company is obliged by law to negotiate with it's employees,in the case of union recognition?these threats by management which have been believed by the more gullible and immature amonst us are the last desperate measure of an employer who knows that if ryanair pilots gain representation,then the company will have to shelve out money to better terms and conditions of the pilot group and in turn the cabin crew.everything in ryanair comes back to money and if balpa were going to lead to further cuts in pilots terms and conditions,then they would be welcomed with open arms.the jump from this to swingeing job cuts and base closures,is pure fantasy and supposition.threats,mere threats with no evidence to back them up.

nonsense!!!

Grim, not arguing with you buddy.
Just dont know why you've not left 5 years ago if you hate it that much. And you've still not answered that question...?

As for my "immature and irrational reckoning" - all I can say is that it is a difference of opinion between us. Ive put just some my points across for not wanting Balpa, just as you have for wanting Balpa. I may say that I find your opinion "immature and irrational." However I can look outside the box (and my base, thank you) and understand people are intitled to their own opinions. Whereas you jump on anyone who disagrees with you with a barrage of petulent abuse.
Well you do not intimidate me, call me what you like I can assure you it wont hurt! :ok:

See any similarities to Ryanair management behaviour? :ooh:

commandb,

your reasons for not wanting to accept BALPA seem to be based on the fear of your base being closed. Could you answer the question I posed?

G-AWZK

Yes sir, one of them. I of course understand if a base isnt making money it would be closed however my base is doing very well.
We have been told - as have other bases - that the base will be closed to stop the spread of unions...etc. If Ryanair were to close all the UK bases, Balpa having recognition will effectively be rendered useless so I guess this is why MOL will do it. Look to be honest, nothing anyone says on here will change peoples minds about the whole situation. If you are of anti or pro union - pprune isnt going to change that!
Ive said all I wanted to say on this whole matter on here now.
Lets see what happens over the next few months!

commandb - i cannot recall saying i hate working in ryanair,correct me if i am wrong.why should i run away?i believe that it is better to fight and strive,than leave and let other make the sacrifice or do the work i can do.no martyrdom intended.if i see a bully in the park,i do not turn away.why would i?as i have said before,i will be here long after many of the management stooges.i will fight and i have indeed already won,i do not FEAR the UNION BUSTER!!!
i do not intend to intimidate you,quite the contrary.i wish you to keep posting as you are the one of the greatest advertisements for union recognition along with slim/abusing.

where is the evidence of mass base closures and job losses in ryanair related to union recognition?

That is unbelievable :eek:

I knew that Ryanair were lacking in morals, but this is beyond the pale. You are correct that PPRuNe will never change the juggernaut that is Ryanair management, but they are obviously terrified of union recognition. Ever stopped to wonder why?

The problem is other companies will be watching to see if they get off with this, and if they do you can be sure that other companies will follow suit.

Your management has already worked hard on the divide and conquer tactics, but don't you think that it is a rather odd company that threatens to close profitable bases just because the workforce asks for a legal right?

The problem I can see is that if Ryanair are allowed to do this then it has ramifications throughout the European aviation industry. Think outside the box, guys.

Really, it is time to show this arrogant MOL a united pilot group, who is able to fight back! money against money!! Thats the only way he understands.

STOP the slavery of aviation!!! NOW!!!

Shame on you Mr OL, showing no respect to your fellow employees, it is time FOR CHANGE!!!