Surely that is a bit unfair. It is not a case of them getting money when
anyone leaves but if someone leaves them before the training agreement expires.

Do you seriously suggest that Flybe should essentially subsidise the training costs of competing airlines.

SR

it's not a matter of subsidising the training expenses of competing airlines, it is just that rating the remainder amount of money to the remaining time you owe them (up to 3 years) seems more just.

Do u think that someone who would leave after 2.5 year with them should refund the total sum ?
come on...

By and large I agree. To pay the remainder would be more just from the pilots point of view. But what is more just from the company's perspective? Remember it is the pilot who is defaulting on the agreement, not Flybe. If Flybe has to keep training because pilots leave a short time after joining it costs them money as they need more training staff.

I realise it sounds like I am coming down on the side of the company. I am not. I just think you cannot look at pilots' interests in isolation from the needs and interests of the employer. I certainly don't agree that it is "disgraceful". Yes, it is less than ideal but not altogether unreasonable.

SR

Speedrestriction, we will have to disagree on that I think! However, the airline industry is not the only one where this happens and I must admit that if the non-reducing bond had been in place when I joined I would have accepted it. I wanted the job and I enjoy it.

In an ideal world though, I do believe that any company should shoulder the full cost of training. If a business doesn't want to subsidise the training costs of their competitors they should work harder to make people stay.

Finally, although I have strong views on this issue, they are not directed towards Flybe specifically and we do not live in an ideal world. I do understand that from a business point of view it would be folly not to bond pilots in the current climate. There are so many of us who are willing to accept it, most other airlines do it (or worse) and there are so many opportunities for chaps with a few TP hours to move on. A huge training budget also doesn't look good on the balance sheet when a company is being sold off!

Okeydokey:ok:

SR

From the CC yesterday-It's official

New joiners will be bonded for 3 years, if they leave before the 3 years are up, they are liable for the whole bond...ie the £13.5k

Would like to see how that would stand up in court though:confused:


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Endofeng - there would be a contract in place!

Q400 Pilot (you really do need to change that if you move on!)

Granted, but this is new territory, apparently BALPA are not too happy with this either.

According to our CC man the contracts aren't worth the paper they are written on....hmmmm interesting eh!

I'm/we are lucky, we only pay back the balance remainding if/when we leave:}

Feel sorry for new joiners.....

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It's funny isn't? Management will quite happily give you the "this is a training airline" and "we don't really care if people move on after a year" crap when it's time for payrises and such.

But now they seem to be wanting (encouraging!?) people to stay on longer.

What's it to be you bunch of hypocritical oafs?

I have seen this work in other industries. A mate of mine was being chased for the cost of a management course when he had signed a similar agreement and then left the company. Legally he has to pay up, if they can track him down of course. (and no, it is not me)

The answer lies in the Unfair Contract Terms Act.
Test of fairness
A term is unfair if:
contrary to the requirement of good faith it causes a significant imbalance in the parties' rights and obligations under the contract.
Reducing bond is one thing - but non reducing - doesn't that cause a significant imbalance in the parties rights and obligations??

Another interesting point is that a contract can be voided if it is proven that one of the parties to the contract had unfair bargaining advantage. Having said that, I am unsure as to on whom the burden of proof lies in such a situation.

sr

flybe bond
 

According to Balpa any bond is legal and just providing there is a degree of amortisation, so a bond that does not reduce, as this one appears not to, is indeed not enforceable. Makes you wonder why they continue to offer this bonding arrangement....

If they are serious about attracting experienced people they sure are going about it in a strange way.

This bond policy is not going to stop people leaving with short service. I know of several guys who have left TP operators and happily paid the bond to gain a jet job as the increase in salary gets them there money back pretty soon. Perhaps FLYBE should be having a look at some older guys! Yes i know they could leave too but this is less likely.

Nomercy, they are looking at older guys. Current recruitment seems to favour ex flying instructors, air taxi guys or guys with a small amount of commercial experience, i.e the type of people who can have 8mnths on the line, and be promoted straight to the left hand seat to help solve the shortage of captains problem.

As for the non-reducing bond, add to that the company's proposal of new joining f/o's starting on £23,000!

As of today new joiners start on £26191 but tomorrow? who knows???:ugh:

Just to clarify:

Have the CC have agreed in principle a pay cut of over 11% for future joiners? What is the rationale applied? I was under the impression that Flybe are a profitable company (albeit one which is investing heavily in expansion). If what Flyingbug says is correct the CC are prepared to allow the company erode T&Cs in a time of profitable trading.:eek: How is this justified? I dread to think what would happen if there was a downturn.

Will the savings be used to fund wage increases for those at the other end of the seniority list?:yuk: Please tell me it is not true. It is a bit like selling your children off into slavery.:{

sr

E195 Update
 

I have seen recent pictures of the E195 in action and I believe service may have started out of Birmingham. How many E195s are expected to be on line before the end of 06? How many expected during 07? Will they operate them out of Southampton?

For the FOs on the 195, are most former Captains on the Dash or just very senior former 146 FOs? Understand they would never hire into the 195, then are the FOs former 146 FOs as those aircraft are phased out?

I don't think employing older pilots will solve FlyBE's retention problems. Improving terms, conditions, roster stability etc might do the trick though.

Riker - in answer to your questions, it is expected that there will 2 possible 3 in service by the end of this year, the first one is operating out of BHX the second one will based out of EXT and the 3rd will be out of SOU.
I believe that next year a further 4 possibly 5 may be delivered.
With regards to crewing it - currently it is being flown by ex 146 Capt's and F/O's who were the most senior member's in the seniority. Further crews will be picked from the seniority list and is also dependent on where further E195's will be based and crew's could be made up off Dash8 crew's and 146 crews just dependent on there seniority.
NO direct entry crew's will be taken for the E195 unless i guess they've allready got either the E170 or the E190 on there license.

hope this helps
brgds
W.G

Seen This Before
 

I seem to remember questioning the actions of the CC in another thread and FE said i was talking drivel. Actions speak louder than words and this reduced pay for new joiners is vindication of what i said.

Who will be next for a pay cut, not senior hangers-on thats for sure.:D

Hi BiVIRAAM,

I read your previous post and FE (Fred Elliot's) reply. You were both right to some extent, although FE was rude.

To clarify:

The pay offer is 4% p.a. each year for three years (not the 2.4% you speculated).
With the arrival of the EMB195, there is a good possibility of FOs with less than 5 years service going onto the jet, if the seniority list is followed. The bidding for places is underway now.
The CC have written to BALPA members with the pay offer and revised pay scales. The proposal is for FO starting pay to be reduced to £23,000. The ballot is not finished yet.
It is possible that the balloted offer will be rejected - the basis for many pilots discontent is the errosion of their T&Cs due to lack of crews (this was in part a deliberate action by rostering when the numbers of crew per aircraft were reduced from 5 Cpts and 5 FOs to 4.3 of each per aircraft; with the remaining crews often working to their FTL max). The pay offer of 12% over 3 years does not overcome this difficulty - we will see if its acceptable to crews.

If the balloted offer is rejected (and this would be due to the erosion of T&Cs) a strike is very likely - once the BALPA formalities have been concluded.
I like flying for Flybe, however the reduced T&Cs are unacceptable; a strike would unfortunately be damaging to the company, so I sincerely hope it can be avoided, with proper crewing levels being maintained and crews not constantly being told that they are working to "legal limits" by crewing when working to FTL limitations.

Flybe do recruit DEC and will even offer a base before you start to tempt you; they are desperate for Captains at the moment. However if I read your post correctly you are an FO? albeit an experienced one. So you would represent a training risk to them in the rare event that you failed your Capt conversion. An A320 Capt from another airline was offered a job at my interview with a base of his choice but starting on the Q400. He accepted with a pay drop of around 20k! Lifestyle/area to live over cash was his choice......I havent answered all your questions but hope this helps .....all the best....:ok:

SK111

By all means apply, but think very seriously about it before you move.

For no additional salary you will be moving from a flag carrier to the opposite end of the spectrum, working your rocks off and moving to what presumably would be a foreign country away from family and friends.

Flybe are very short of Dash 8 captains, and someone on the company web site has posted that a load more experienced pilots have resigned this month. There is an ongoing dispute over terms and conditions which may well lead to industrial action, and a management team who are only interested in very short term profitability in order for the company to be floated. Is this somewhere you really want to move to?

With your experience if you want to move to the UK and hold a JAR licence you could almost certainly get a RHS on a boeing/airbus and be looking at command in 5 - 8 years. At flybe as a DEC you go to the bottom of the seniority list and will wait for about 7 - 8 years to get a jet command on the embraer 195 (assuming of course that the company is still there in 8 years time), and when you get that jet command you will be earning at least £10k less than a jet captain in any other UK airline.

Your choice obviously.

SK111

I agree with the above post, I can understand your desire to become a captain when you have so many hours and are still in the right seat of a Dash 8. Of course I don't know you, but feel that you should forget this idea. You would work very hard under what would probably be poorer terms than you are used to.

I understand 15 in the last couple of days have given notice. Thats on top of those who were already leaving :E

15 in the last couple of days!!!! Where on earth are they going? Easy??

I wonder how this will impact on the requirement drive they are about to start…..?

Flights currently being cancelled due to lack of Q400 Capts. Existing ones working lots of hours all over the Flybe network away from base (& home!). Ex BA Cathay types 50 plus jumping ship as the local base dream is turning into a nightmare! Training in crisis etc etc. Very worried where it will all end up. Thinking of giving it all up to become a swedish porn star - maybe!?

When? Any clue or date and kind of people they will be looking for?

PZ :ok:

I wonder how this will impact on the requirement drive they are about to start…..?

Please replace "requirement" with "recruitment".......

papazulu,

I would assume they are looking for a range of people. From the Balpa EOC, they like everyone else, needs experienced guys/gals. But I hope they're looking to take on a few newly qualified folks as well.

When? 1st October was my understanding - that's tomorrow!!

Funkie,

Spot on, they need a balanced mixture to fulfill the CAA's requirements, they can't take a whole load of newbies on, they need experience as well!

Yep at least 15 have resigned this month, and rumour is many more to come, so I think this will be good news for guys trying to get in, but VERY bad news for Flybe, as many going are Q400 captains. I had a flight cancelled very recently due to no Captain.....

Many F/O's with the minimum requirement are being asked if they would like command assesments as they are desperate for Captains, and they continue to loose trainers as well.....AND, there is the continued pay/conditions dispute which is looking like a NO vote will be returned.

All in all, Flybe management must be a wee bit worried at the mo! I'm sure any potential buyer/investor will be put off by some of the goings on of late. Hope it all ends well though, as I don't want to be out of a job!

Good luck

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Hmmmmm.....I've seen this somewhere before.....
 

The post below is from a flybe thread last year. It must be a seasonal phenomenon. Or maybe they just don't pay enough. :rolleyes:

sr


24th October 2005, 18:17 #18

doublehole

Has to be at least 30 people out there treading water!!
Heard thats how many are about to jump ship.

Since January 2005 they have recruited at least 163 Pilots and since January 2006, 64 Pilots. That is just under Half of the Pilot work force in about 18 months to replace the ones they have lost, let alone catering for the planned expansion.

Says it all really.

So, does anyone know if the recruitment opened yesterday. This is the first chance I've had to log on and apply, only to find it is still closed.....or have i missed it:ugh:

Thanks

c99

Nope, wasn't open yesterday.

sr

Further "meet the team" due to take place at the Hilton Hotel EDI on 19 October.

Until the Ts & Cs are sorted, people will be slightly nervous joining them.:hmm:

Whats the latest on the pay and terms and conditions ballot? Yes? No? Strike?

I heard that all but one EDI q400 Captains were amongst those recent resignations, that might explain the reason to have a recruitment day in EDI!

T&C's
 

If the shortage of Captains is so bad as some on this thread indicate, what is the company doing about it other than advertise open days when only a handful of people turn up?

Surely thay have got the message by now that Terms and Condtions need to improve?

From where I see it base salary needs a minimum of a 10% increase and introduction of sector pay would go some way to get the experienced people they appear to need.

The fact they do not seem to be doing any of this makes me wonder if there really is such a 'mass exodus' going on?

I do not mean to critise any posters to this thread, but maybe the level of resignations has been exaggerated?

Meeb,

All your comments are correct except for questioning the number of resignations. From one of the Balpa cc members I heard last week that there were 15 resignations at the end of September, of which 9 were Q400 captains from various bases. There have also been resignations from dash F/Os and 146 captains and F/Os.

From the same source I was told that prior to these resignations they were already short of 20 dash captains. As has been mentioned they are already cancelling flights if captains call in sick as there is no one left to provide standby cover.

15 for Sept is also is the number I have heard....Also some pretty experienced Capts leaving who will be missed! Good luck guys!

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