Leaving before your bond is up
 

Hello,

I would really appreciate some of your views on my predicament, one I am actually very fortunate to be in.

I am very lucky to have what I believe to be a great flying job, I love the aircraft, the routes, people I fly with and its everything I could have hoped for in a first job, in any job. Unfortunately like many others I have a very significant debt to pay back for my training and I am just keeping myself above water at the moment. I knew it would be like this and I’m not complaining, but after the initial awe of the job has passed, whilst I still love it, feel like a kid everytime we start up etc etc, I am looking at the bills and my responsibilities, the balance is moving in the other direction.

Being a loyal type of person I have and had every intention of working my bond and staying with the company for many years, what more could I want from a flying job I asked myself?

Well…money actually. It’s a sad fact that as the market is very buoyant at the moment the temptation to join a larger company with the prospect of earning more albeit in a job I’m sure I would enjoy less would make home life so much easier. The grass is always greener isn’t it?

My question then, what would you do? I am confident that I could gain employment with another airline and solve all my money worries in one step, but saying goodbye to this job and the people feels wrong. On the other hand the market won’t stay like this forever and I don’t want to miss the boat, individuals in the company have urged me to seriously consider the implications of getting stuck here.

Perhaps this is more a discussion topic than a please give me an answer, only I can make the decision but hearing from anyone who has been here would be of great benefit.

Thank you

:)

There is an awful lot to be said for loyalty, integrity, and having a sense of what is right and wrong.
Sadly, aviation is not one of those industries these days:8

If it makes sense financially...and it suits you to move..then move:ok:

Put the shoe on your employers' foot for a second...if it suited them to make you redundant, how long do you think it would take to make that decision?

As for the bond, well, that depends on the arrangement you entered into.

asecretidentity,

I have done just that. I have been working for the last one and a half years with a UK charter company (merged today!!) on the Airbus, and this is my first job. Last week I handed in my notice with half the bond remaining(£7500). I had to look two years ahead to see the real benefits. Granted, I have no debt from training so I am in a slightly different position from you. I do not think anybody can answer this question for you as all our circumstances are slightly different, but do not feel any loyalty to your employer. You only have to look at the recent mergers between MYT/T.Cook and today First Choice/Tui, and you will see a lot of very nervous pilots who are only a number within their company.

Good luck whatever your choice.:ok:

There is very little loyalty in this industry and I agree with the other posts. Do what is right for you not what you think your company would like of you. You only work for them, they are not your life masters!
If it makes you feel guilty leaving, then remember this (you are releasing a vacancy for a wanabee who wants to join your present airline). I personally wouldn't leave under any clouds (ie paying my bond back).:= If you entered a contractual agreement then I think it should be honored as you accepted the terms in good faith when you signed up. Anyway, the industry is still a small place....... if you catch my drift!!
Good luck with whatever you decide
FJ

:confused:

Errrrr... in my book paying the bond back absolutely doesn't represent the breach of contract. So if you have the money, pay it and move on. If your boss starts ranting about loyalty while paying you peanuts, consider yourself lucky for having escaped. One thing I wouldn't recommend is just running away.

Leg it mate. Don't pay em a penny. They are quick enough to shaft you. Besides, you are the minow and they are the corporate giant. Life is too short to be bothered about trivia. Take a page out of T. Blair's book on red nose nite. Bovered????

Asecretidentity - just remember that by leaving mid bond you are increasing your debt as you will owe the company the unworked portion, would this be better or worse than continuing as you are?
Don't be swayed by Modderator's 'advice', it is totally wrong and could very well lead you into much more serious trouble with you present employer, who may take you to court thus causing you to incur legal fees as well and trouble with a future employer who won't be too keen to take on a bond breaker - word gets round.
Have you considered going and talking to your management? You may be surprised at how reasonable they can be if you present your circumstances honestly, I suggest you give that a try first.
Best of luck.

Sehen sie mein Gesicht?:hmm:

Some good advice, I too have been in a similar position, DON'T BURN YOUR BRIDGES!!!

Leave them & don't pay a penny of the bond back. Look at the industry today & show me one employer who acts with integrity & loyalty? It's a sad state of affairs but the bond is a total joke anyway: how was your company going to operate if it didn't provide people like you with the training to operate their aircraft in the first place?

Think of yourself & your financial state & go for it.:ok:

Leave and pay the bond off. That is what you agreed to. You are only breaking the agreement if you leave and don't pay.

As for 'looking after number one', absolutely! BUT, remember that aviation is a very small industry and if you actually break your bond (i.e. leaving without paying it) you will not really be looking after your own best interests, especially if word reaches any prospective future employer.

PP

Many moons ago, i was in a company where a first officer left and refused to pay off his bond. He was about half way through his 747 course with his new employer when the training manager came to see him. The training manager asked him if there was any truth in the claim he had refused to pay off his previous bond. he confirmed that this was true. he was told to pick up his belongings and leave. BE VERY CAREFUL!

I know of a First Officer in BA, (probably now a captain), who broke a bond with SIA and he was on his B747-400 course too, like the guy in BALLSOUT's post. BA took a kinder view, they said that he had to pay the bond off as BA could not take the risk of having a crew member detained in Singapore and disrupting the schedule, otherwise he would have to come off the course and return to short-haul. If I remember correctly it was around six years after he 'skipped' from SIA but they still got him and he paid.

Asecretidentity It is exactly because of the crass attitude displayed here by Modderator and X-Centric that you have been bonded in the first place. The likes of these two are not welcome in aviation, they stuff it up for everyone else, somehow they slipped through the net.:mad: :mad:

With the greatest of respect parabellum, honour is a two way street. My employer went bust some 18 months ago owing me a not inconsiderable amount of money. In fact they closed their doors the day prior to pay day, hardly a coincidence methinks! Myself and 52 other pilots, along with all the other poor unfortunates working for this IRISH registered airline, were left with nothing and have still to be paid.
Believe me, your employer will drop you in the same way he would drop last nights curry, with just a small bowel movement. You are merely an expensive commodity to them, they abuse you while you work for them and continue to do so after they have dropped you. You owe them nothing!

they have what they merit...

ask them to sue you, and tell them u have no cash and they are going to lose more money in attorney fee unless they pay you more!!!!:ok:

Refuse BONDage
 

OK, while I understand that there is the legal aspect to the bond because one has signed it, but I think that the bond system should be abolished. It is just yet another way of holding pilots in a Company that may or may not be (probably not) decent.
Our Profession has been degraded over the last 20 years or so because we accept this treatment. How about if things were the other way around ie we had the whip handle? Generally we are nice to the management because we are too stupid to realise they will do us down on a whim!
So lets say you are bonded for £20,000 over 3 years for instance. The Company obviously think that is the cost of the rating - fair comment. So if a pilot joins a Company already rated then they, the Company, should pay the pilot £20,000 over 3 years. The pilot has earned his rating at another Company, with the associated experience (time on type). Fair? Yes, and if enforced would stop the manipulative pen pushers in thier tracks.
A couple of friends of mine have joined other lines of business, bus driver, train driver. They are not bonded, yet we the 'professionals' are.

Pay up
 

No issue. I left an employer to fly biggish shinyish jets, failed the base check at the end of training, and needed a job fast. My previous employer, to whom I paid back the training balance AS AGREED, offered me my old job back, on either a temp or permanent basis.

In the end I joined another jet airline, completed the base check, and have enjoyed a good career since. But no way would that have happened had I scarpered from my first employer without paying my dues.

Anyone who suggests otherwise has no integrity. And the issue of airlines' integrity is irrelevant. I am ashamed to hear fellow professionals espouse such a dishonest course of action.

Indeed, this is a very small industry.

look out for yourself, without stepping on others to get there.

Talk to your employer, pay the bond, get on with your life


Integrity intact

As this thread has moved on a bit, heres my 10p's worth:ok:
IMHO, bonds are a good thing, far better in fact than the exploitative SSTR practice. However, there are some employers who will attempt to bond you on a non-reducing basis
i.e. you will be liable for the entire cost that the airline stipulates if you leave before the bond period expires.
IMHO this is unacceptable, a bond is a two-way agreement, it should reduce on the basis of length of service, and should recognize that as you become more experienced on type, you become more productive.
Another favourite bean-counter tactic is to inflate the size of the bond far beyond its actual cost, thats totally unacceptable.
Be wary, and be wise:ok:

"Asecretidentity It is exactly because of the crass attitude displayed here by Modderator and X-Centric that you have been bonded in the first place. The likes of these two are not welcome in aviation, they stuff it up for everyone else, somehow they slipped through the net."

Parabellum, you really are a total muppet aren't you? So we're not welcome in aviation because we don't feel that it's right to try to screw your much needed workforce for money when they leave you because you offered them crap salaries & conditions, eh? A very good friend of mine has worked for the same poxy outfit for the past eight years. He's an exceptional operator & an all round 'good egg' so why does he endure less than industry standard conditions? Because he was bonded for his first tp rating with them, bonded for his first jet rating, bonded for his second jet rating & now they're bloody well trying to bond him for a command course!!!:ugh: Tell me; if they were a good outfit to work for in the first place why would they need to continually bond a pilot to this degree? Bonds are a way of screwing the pilot workforce into the ground. When you join BA you won't be asked to sign a bond. Why not?
NoJoke, I couldn't agree more, it's halfassed people like parabellum who shouldn't be in this industry with their, "everything is bloody wonderful in aviation," attitude. Look how they've destroyed it over the past decade. :{

You may think and say what you like X-centric but you are in a minority within the industry. People who work their bonds, pay their bonds or come to agreement with management move ahead and do the industry no harm, people with no integrity who do a 'runner' without giving a reasonable return of service are the root cause of bonding in the first place. If comments on the thread in R & N concerning the part time work of a certain lady pilot are true then BA do expect a given period of employment from new employees they have trained but I'm uncertain what the financial arrangements amount to. I don't think you will find that I have done too much harm to the industry in the last ten years either.
Hobbit - sorry to hear that, you are, of course, an unsecured creditor, the banks always get in first:* Previously worked for two majors that went TU around me so know the feeling but running away from a bond is a deliberate act of contract breaking, going into liquidation usually isn't.

Parabellum you are right on the money!

If everyone took the selfish attitude of previous postings then the industry would collapse or people like Ryanair would prevail whereby you must pay for your rating, but the management can sack you if you fall out of favour with them - I am sure nobody wants to feel this vulnerable!!

A contract is a contract. By breaking it, you will not only make life difficult for yourself later, but stuff it up for any new people joining your present company.:{ :(

Must be management clones
 

Why should pilots have to pay for training that the Company also requires? They need us in the front. The pay and conditions have declined and everything is in the management favour. With do gooders around no wonder we are on the way down. Things started good for me with Dan Air then went downhill. The only decent Companies have been some small ones with an interest in thier pilots and not only the bottom line. One 'big' Company employed straight onto a big jet without bond - they very rarely lost pilots because they treated them well. The chance come to win back some off the Terms and Conditions that have been lost.

No Joke possibly you are on the wrong thread? We are not debating paying for your own training, we are talking about Training Bonds.
Just so long as you complete the return of service the company require after being cleared to the line there is nothing to pay.
If a company require you to pay for your own training over a period of time by deduction of salary then that is not what is widely known as a Training Bond, the very word 'bond' implies a promised amount if there is a default.

Getting tired of saying it:ugh: :ugh: :ugh: but those of you that don't like the idea of a training bond and advocate doing a 'runner' are the very reason we now have training bonds.

For anyone thinking of jumping ship here is a scenario I have seen played out. Half way through the bonded period new pilot jumps ship, not a word to anyone. Ops notify HR who pass it on to the legal department, either in-house or out, (in-house in the case I describe). Jumper is brought to court, complains bitterly about the inhumanity of bonding, how over priced it was, how 'unfair', etc. etc. etc. Jumper is asked, "Is this your signature on this agreement?", Jumper, "er....yes". Short lecture on Jumpers lack of knowledge of contract law and case found in favour of the company with all costs. Jumper now not only has to pay his bond off but also an equal or greater amount in costs, is that anyones idea of a victory for the Jumper? Didn't think so, doing a runner is professional and financial suicide.

Very dodgy ground all of this bond business. I would seek professional legal advice in this matter, there are many who say that bonding is illegal just as slavery and serfitude are. Then we have contract law which is in many cases geared up for the big players and not for us minnows. The cost of chasing someone for the bond is expensive and time consuming. As for you being liable for court costs etc well you have to be able to pay and they will know!
This is a subject dear to my heart as I may need the advice myself but I intend discussing matters with my HR dept and come to some kind of personal arrangement. I like the company I work for, I just hate the job and IMHO the front seats of an airline is not the place for someone who doesnt want to be there.
Very best of luck but be very carefull - I will be.

Right thread
 

Again I repeat I understand the legal aspects, but we are virtually forced by management to sign the bond or you don't get a job. It all part of the same package I am trying to reveal. We need to get back control of our Profession from the bean counters and the pen pushed - now is one of the best times ever. All we need now is a decent Union. Now ParaB that IS a different (and very old) thread.

Bonding
 

:= := Wholeheartedly agree.......

What about if a company insists on an individual signing a bond before job offered then at a later date it is discovered,the figure the pilot signed for turned out to be made up of fictional guesswork and twice what it cost for the company to actually train you ( verified by the trto).Individuals signed their training agreements in good faith in the assumption that what they were signing was indeed the actual cost of training. This same little outfit are now attepting to bond individuals for recurrent training and have been proven to be some of the ''sharpest practising'' individuals in the business.
B.

I have read all the posts with a great deal of interest so thank you all for taking the time to reply, it seems that it’s a point many have had to think about.

Perhaps I didn’t make it clear in my initial post that I had no intention of leaving my company without paying off the remaining bond. I signed on the line and got the break, rating and training in return for x number of years commitment. If I am to break that by leaving early then it is only right that I fulfill my part of the bargain and repay what’s left.

I believe that a bond for your type rating is perfectly reasonable. Why should an airline spend a small fortune training you on type to have you leave in short order taking the rating with you? My company never asked me for a penny up front, I don’t have anything taken from my wages and when the times up, its up, I can leave when I want and won’t have anything to pay.

This is, or rather was a moral dilemma on my part. I hope the initial post didn’t come across as one of the far too common type of posting from some people who don’t seem to want to work for a living, or a venting of some injustice, it wasn’t. More it’s a realisation that I could earn a lot more money with another airline.

I think, as I suspected I might, have answered my own question, with your help of course. I do really love my job, I am the cat with the cream in that aircraft and I owe it to the people who gave me my break, and to myself to stay, learn all I can and when I have fulfilled my part of the bargain, and only then, should I consider moving on.

So that’s what I’m going to do.

Thanks again.

asecretidentity

:ok:

Bilderberger

A contract is a contract and pilots are not forced to sign, although, as No Joke intimates, no bond; no job. However distateful that may be to him, companies are not obliged to offer him a position just because he wants one and if the bond situation is quite untenable, then he should look elsewhere. The company's sandpit; the company's rules.

The determination of the the cost of the training is not up to the pilot or an independent TRTO but, if it is reckoned to be too much, the employing company would have to justify the amount and, if it is an innaccurate figure as you suggest, would probably be found to have been unreasonable and would therefore lose any action. Responsible employers already incorporate a breakdown of training costs into the contract and if they don't or won't, avoid them.

Congratulations asecretidentity on maintaining your integrity.

I conduct interviews (as part of a team of local VPs and expats) for a big Asian carrier and I can tell you anyone who even hints that they'd "skip" another carrier in any way (from a bond, or 3 months notice etc) is dead meat. The world is a very small place and sins follow you inevitably and inexorably.

And just because some airlines shaft some people........we're professionals.

Don't give them a penny.

If the situation was reversed (as it was in my case some time ago) the minute the company thinks they don't need you they will lay off.

There is zero loyalty in avation with employers.

Stick with your buddies, help each other as best you can - keep that loyalty. If the airline could fly the planes without pilots, believe me they would.

There are some UK Airlines that don't Bond or Charge you.

Scared Management
 

019360 you are my hero. There are people like you that are dreading what is about to happen. Pilot Power. Boys the simple fact is that we should be paid and respected for our position. I joined an Airline recently after earning my type rating, to find that new joiners, non-type rated are bonded for $50,000. As I joined with a type rating (free to the Company but not to me - remember 019360) I should be paid $50,000 over the same bond period. I worked for my rating, why should the Companies get THAT for free? 12,500 total time - 6,000 hrs jet Command - bugger all really.

its modern day enslavement. you might think you are free to do as you please but think again!!!.
Life - you only get one shot.

Bonds are an obscenity, white collar enslavement and should be illegal.

How many other professions have you sign to pay, under duress, for necessary training ?

Unfortunately, however they can come back to haunt you. a necessary evil for some of us.

You idiots!!!
Not paying back the bond is just why the airlines are changing their strategy and making pilots front their bond or pay for a TR. I was lucky enough to not get trapped like that, but many are. The more you mess them about, the more it will come back and bite you later on.

Mate, what ever you do, dont burn the bridge, take the other posters' advice and pay the bond if you do leave early, and make sure if you do leave you give your current employer plenty of time to train a replacement, at least then you cant be accused of breaking your contract, or of having no integrity.

And to think that aviators were once considered elite, and professionals and good people with integrity. I am personally a "do gooder" in the industry and times have changed and nowdays pilots are often numbers within companies. I have made it more from my attitude to complete the job as contracted, or if unable have left, but with an agreement with the company leaving on a good faith.This has come back too me at a later job where the person who knew of my leaving with agreeements with the previous company was working at a new comapny at which i later applied. I got the job more on the fact I would try to complete my contract or at least be willing to compromise. Integrity got me my position as well as previous training.

Bonds are negotiable...
 

Friend of mine just left a Luxemburg-based cargo outfit for another job, still owing them over 20'000 Euros on his 747 bond.

He sat down at the table with them on his exit interview, and candidly told them that he did not have the money, and that some sort of installment plan would have to be figured out whereby he could repay them over time...

In the end, they agreed to let him go for an immediate payment of 10'000 Euros! This not because they are kind-hearted people, but because their legal department probably told them the success rate they had with people moving away, and sustaining their payments over time... not good!

What's more, his new employer, happy to have him, paid him a 10'000 Euro "signing bonus" for joining, so in the end he got away scot-free, whilst maintaining his honesty and not burning any bridges..

Now, not everybody is gonna get that lucky, admittedly.. but the point i'm making is that talking to your present, past and future employer could go a long way in solving an immediate problem...

TEN DOLLAR

The small turboprop operator should be named and shamed. Bonding for promotion is not negotiable in my view and perhaps you should have taken them to the door of the county court where they would probably have capitulated. It would have cost you virtually nothing.

The bond of £41,000 is probably not sustainable and therefore not enforceable. Anyone presented with this sort of thing should ask for the breakdown of this figure and if it is, as seems likely, unjustifiable, not sign. The problem is that once the threat of court action is made, people get worried and that is understandable. Unfortunately, it allows the perpetrators of this sort of thing get away with it and companies with a proper perspective on reasonable bonds get tarred with the same brush.

Will you name the operator or, at least name the aircraft type so that we can draw our own conclusions and let it be a warning for others?