Bonding is a real mine field these days but providing the bond is reasonable then there should not be a problem. In a previous company one of our pilots had a brother who was an employment lawyer. His take on this was;

A company could bond you for, as long as and for how much as they liked but once the bond was complete then you could no longer be re bonded for up grades or second or subsequent types on your license; as this was prejudicial to promotion, which is against employment law, as everyone should have equal opportunities and re-bonding was a detriment in this regard.

That particular company was trying to re-bond for conversions on to second types.

BR.

If the airlines don't bond then we'll all end up paying up front. Most airlines you'll be able to talk to and come to some agreement if you decide to leave early as they'd perfer something rather than nothing and it'll always be cheaper than taking you to court.
As for paying for upgrades a lot of companies do it and some even reduce your salary for a period of time after the upgrade - so I find your comments Bad Robot very interesting. I agree that bonding or paying for an upgrade is not on.

paying back the bond
 

For me there is no problem with leaving an employer - you sign a contract agreeing to give - say - three month's notice. That's all you need to give and, however good it is there, the other posters who've said the company would not hesitate to make you redundant if it needed to are right. It would be a mistake to give them more loyalty than they give an employee.

The bond does complicate things. FlyMD has the best idea. Be straight with the guys if you can't pay it off and try to come to an amicable arrangement which might consist of paying a reduced amount or by installments. If they aren't interested it might be worth taking legal advice as I doubt they can take you to court immediately for non payment if you have agreed (say) to pay over time.

The problem with running away from the bond is you might end up with a criminal record and then, however unfair it might seem, you would not be able to get airside clearance. With no airside clearance.... no pilot job.

But surely non-payment of a bond (although I wouldn't recommend it) is a matter for the civil courts, not criminal courts, and therefore wouldn't end with a criminal conviction....

criminal or civil conviction
 

FlyingBug,

You may well be right and, if so, I don't really know how the issue would stand with regard to criminal record checks. I guess it might not count.

But, if the company were feeling really nasty, they could, instead of chasing you for a debt in the civil court, press charges for fraud in the criminal court. It would be harder for them as the burden of proof is different but it would be a bigger risk for the person trying to evade his bond.

Like you said, I think it's better to pay up.

OverFlare

So what is the general consensus if you pitch up to another airline that operates the type you have on your license. You have a few thousand hours on type and they still insist on a ridiculous bond. You have only moved there due to either a better location or vastly better Ts & Cs ( at the moment) and we all know how that can change over night ???

BR.

I think there is some overlapping here between what is generally agreed is a training bond as oppose to an agreement to pay all or part to wards ones own training.

The bond, as I have always understood it, is an amount that you agree to pay the company that train you on a new type should you decide to leave them before you have completed the agreed period of return of service, probably between three and five years. Provided you complete the time period no money changes hands.

Paying for ones training is a whole different ball game and is a fairly recent abomination but brought about, in part, because people have offered to pay to get a job.

Your reputation is what matters
 

Hi there,
I thought i add my 2c to the discussion although there are some good points made already.
Just think about what could happen if you leave and not pay your bond, someone else has already given some examples of some nasty situations people have gotten in to.

I also understand the position of fellow pilots that one day show up to work and hat their company has gone belly up together with their pay etc.

At the end of the day yes the company will dump you like a box of rocks and will have no signs of loyalty towards you but after the company is gone they dont have to worry about their reputation no longer they are no more, you do! if you leave on bad terms and knock on someone else's door your chances of the bad rep somehow getting to your new potential CF are considerable.

The CEOs and executive team of the bust airline will have to answer to authorities and some will have some serious personal consequences some get let off but.

Cosnider this: 2 wrongs dont make a right. just because they would doesnt mean you should.

Look out for your own interests but keep in mind what other people's perception of you might be.

I find this a fascinating thread. From my limited knowledge of this process if you ask 3 different employment lawyers for their take on this you will get 3 different answers. From my reading of employment law in WHS whilst waiting for the wife. To skip a bond is not committing fraud as it would have to be proved that it was your intention to jump ship from the start. If you had just had enough then any change to the T&C that you signed up to may nullify the agreement. It would not be a criminal offence but they could try and take you to a civil court and press for the dosh back, see T&Cs above. You also need to recheck your contract ie was your signature witnessed, was every page signed below the last line and not just at the bottom of the page. was there a date next to the signature. did your company bod sign their part of the contract. have they missed or made late salary payments. the big factor is that without your last companies blessing you may have problems getting a job with a reputable company as it is a small world, but if i needed pilots and one pitched up with a rating then stuff the other company business is business. i still think the best way forward though is to talk to the management in your present company and work out an agreement but dont just write a cheque and hand it over without either taking legal advice and or talking to your company. also just check and see if anyone before you has left and what they did cos if they didnt have to pay you probably wont either. I have known people who have walked with their company approval and others who have just written a cheque without thinking it through and seeking advice and been lots of Ks worse off.
everyone knows someone!

I am shocked at the way you were treated and yes as far as i am aware it is illegal for them to withold any references. the refrence required is the fact that you worked for that company between certain dates that is all, and not whether you got a partial fail on an ndb into x, do you have anything in writing from them saying they would withhold refrences until you paid up, and why were you bonded, they have to pay out and prove all costs and an upgrade doesnt count anyway. if i were you my friend i would collectivly invest in a good employment law lawyer cos i think by the sounds of it he would have a field day and you would get your dosh back (- lawyers fees etc) good luck, might be enough to knock a few years off your mortgage.

TEN DOLLAR
What winkle says is on the nail.
Even a bad employment lawyer would have them.
Keep in touch with your former colleagues because you could all have a nice little earner from these people and please give us a clue as to who these underhand employers are.

I hear a midlands based frieght company operate a (second) bond for upgrade!
This company is Atlantic Airlines. Operating L-188(£41000 bond) and ATP(£17000 bond).

Sorry for bringing this up again...but as far as I have heard it is now illegal to be bonded for more then one year in EU countries. I am absolutely sure about this for germany......can anybody confirm this for other EU countries?

Anyway "Bond jumpers" are probably one of the biggest reasons why alot of airlines have switched to self sponsored type rating schemes.

If you are in a Bond payback situation , as long as you make any attempt at paying it back , say a tenner a week , then no court is going to nail you . After all , you are not refusing to pay are you ?
Its a bit like the difference between tax avoidance and tax evasion , pay a little , pay anybody , but don't pay a lot.
I once worked for an airline that changed the notice period to 20 weeks ( approx 5 months ) to stop people moving on . An industrial lawyer pointed out that if you were paid monthly then you only needed to give a months notice and so on . When some tried to leave and gave 3 months notice which is what their contract said and the company threatened to sue , the airline soon backed down when lawyers were queuing up to take the case on.
I think a lot of people do not understand their rights and are intimidated by their contract . Whatever your stage of aviation , it always pays to have yr contract perused by an employment lawyer , does not cost much.

I regard the bond as the Semi-Necessary Evil; the cute, but slightly smelly cousin of the Great Evil.


Hear me out.


Everyone wants to go to a major "legacy" airline, and those airlines don't have bonds because they are the best places to work. Ergo, no bond required as there is little reason for the company to fear you ever leaving.
How do you get to airline nirvana? You pay your dues and build up your experience and career. This means that the majority of companies out there are stepping stones for the majority of pilots.
These companies know this.
Do not expect them to get rid of bonds. The low cost model isn't going to change.
Its like converting half of an aircraft into 1st class seating and expecting those seats to fill up. There is a limited amount of people who will purchase those seats. Just like there is a limited amount of people who will forgo a cheaper seat on a low cost airline in favour of better inflight standard at a markup on a premium carrier.


In other words, if you want a seat in first class, you'll have to earn it by having the experience and qualification to be rewarded a spot with one of those few "premium" airlines that are left.


Don't expect Orange or -insert your example here- to start charging double for a seat so you will reap the rewards. It will not happen.
So, in the end, you have two choices really. A bond, which insures the company you will put in your time, or PAY FOR YOUR TYPE RATING.



This is a disaster, as every hungry 200 hour wonder with trust fund/rich parents/ american express will buy their rating or borrow their life away in wonderlust over a big shiney new airplane they get to fly.They won't really pause at what they will be paid and what kind of standard of life they will have.....They will not take some time to read through the contract, they will not let the tiny fineprint sink in....


That rational, warning voice on their shoulder is replaced by:


SHINEY AIRPLANE! SHINEY AIRPLANE!


After a few months, the novelty wears off and they realize they have totally buried themselves because they have borrowed more than they can ever pay back at the ridiculously low wage they agreed to as they had an airliner dangled in their face.


Like a playboy centrefold that has been stared at for far too long.....


Airplane not so shiney.....anymore....


Too late for the rest of us. The flood of bought type ratings creates a situation where everyone bitching about bonds would beg to have them back.

If everyone would pick a date, say April Fools day, and STOP signing training bonds! JUST FRICKIN STOP!

This is no different than paying someone to get a right seat job. Your only hurting yourself and everyone else. No wonder this industry is in such dire straights. STOP IT! NOW!
Employers are fairly desperate for pilots right now. IF no one signs a training bond, they will be forced to raise salaries and make the T&C's a bit more tastefull. Every time someone signs a training bond, the amount of the bonds increase. If an employer wants to retain folks, they will treat you better, but everytime you sign a bond, you are telling them that you will accept being abused.
Folks, we have the upper hand right now! Use it to our advantage!

Remember, APRIL FOOLS DAY!

I know a chap who left UK Shorthaul Airline A to join UK Longhaul Airline B but refused to pay his remaining bond. Airline A then called Airline B who subsequently withdrew his offer of employment leaving him jobless.

Is it true that (in UK) any company CANNOT bond anyone for a period longer than 3 yrs?

I think when it comes to pay-back point as an employee you have ther right to have a detailed "bill" of what the operator has spent on you so that you can work the figures backwards and know HOW MUCH you owe to the airline.

Would be great if anyone could suggest some source of informations on these subjects.

Regads

DK :confused:

DK,

As far as I'm aware, it is illegal to bond anyone for training. Especially 'non-reducing' bonds. Airline Bonds are more of an agreement that they have produced to protect themselves against pilots 'getting their rating and runnimg'!!!...

As already said, choose your airline carefully, DO NOT SIGN UP TO A NON-REDUCING BOND!

I have no problem siging up for a bond in principal(especially if it is an airline I have wanted to join for some time and intend to stay at!), but I think these 'Schemes' that many of the lo-costs are making non-type rated pilots enter into are nothing short of a SCAM!(Reduced salary for 3 years etc...) Someone somewhere is making a lot of money out of you. The training provider it would seem is in cahoots with your airline, and between them they are making a handsome packet, let alone the money lender, who BTW is usually a highstreet lender who gives you the 'going rate', charges you £100 set up fee, then when your reduced salary repayments start, you the lender pays the Interest back every month (around £90 pmonth).

So all in all, entering a 'Scheme' isn't all it seems. Whatever happened to good old bonding? You leave you pay back what you owe.....Nope, some bean counter thought aghhhhh we can make a buck or tWO here out of our own staff:ugh: DISGRACE!!!!

I don't agree with not paying back your loan though. You enter into it, you pay it!

For those BALPA members there is a leaflet downloadable from their website dealing with bonds. Under "legal" on the menu.
It answers a lot of the questions/rumour/hearsay.

Legal or not there still needs to be a precedence set in the courts so until it happens, ie a uk airline takes a pilot to court and wins then no precedence has been set. (maybe it has) i am not a lawyer or have that much knowledge about contract law but i do know about precedence. If i was an airline recruiter and needed pilots and could get one for little or no training cost then i would not give a stuff whether he was bonded by his previous company or not. do not forget that pilots are assests just like spare tyres or aircraft or toilet handles or paper cups, get them as cheap as possible cos business is business. i am bonded and am leaving, i will continue to pay my bond for many years since i did agree to pay it back, what was not agreed was the rate of repayment.
love this topic and want some really good meat on the subject.
happy new year to you all - safe flying.

Bonds?

Prostitution.

(That is, you only get screwed because you let yourself be, and you do it for money).

;)

Here you'll get a better definition for that. You must be missing the funny bit, me thinks...:E I wonder how you regard SSTR's then.

However, bond in my case is decreasing and my contract has no "fine prints" concerning reduced salary. I will be bonded for recurrent training, that's true and not fair at all. Still, I was hired on minimal experience and in a respected outfit with a promising future ahead since company looks inside when is time to fill more prestigious seats.

Meanwhile, as everyone of us I look around and keep eyes&ears wide open because this is a strange industry. I have heard the rumor of the 3-yrs-rule from a friend of mine and I am just looking for more infos on this matter, so post like Zurg's one help (although I don't want to get involved with BALPA...yet), other comments...well, we all agree!

Thanks for any support

DK ;)

Winkle , you may be right about any UK airline having not yet taken someone to court , but Cathay and Singapore have done it so there are precedents.
However , you have hit the nail on the head concerning repayments. Paying back £10 a month demonstrates your intention to clear your 'debt' and no court is going to waste its time in this case.

you may well be right that cathay have taken to court but i didnt realise they bonded. there are european countries where the maximum bonding period is one year (by law). so where do we stand in the united states of europe! as for precedence it can only apply where the law of the land applies and in our case in the uk it can also include european law.
a lot of companies have gone through name changes and there are a lot of companies merging (TC) etc my "new" company name bears no resembelence to the name on my contract, i wonder how that works. i also re-signed a contract and that had no mention of bonds does it supercede the old contract. food for thought.

Hi Folks,
coming to this thread late so apols if this has already been said (not going through 4 pages to check).

Bonds are illegal. (long pause for effect)


If you are an EU citizen and working in the EU, it is illegal to restrict anyone's ability to move throughout the EU full stop. Bosman sorted it for the soccer (hooligan) employees and all someone needs to do for the aviation (non hooligan) employees is to bring a test case to the european court. Suggest BALPA or other such body do so on behalf of crew.

Just because all employers in aviation have a bond system dosent mean that it is legal. I have personnally been bonded and left my employer without paying it back. They swore that they would persue me to the ends of the earth for the outstanding debt and vowed that I would never work in the industry again. That was three years ago and I am still working - not a penny paid back and not a peep from the said employer!! All thanks to my clever brother who knows the law.


Bonds are illegal - dont pay

happy new year to all

(up the dubs - 2008 Allireland champs)

I guess it comes down to the previously mentioned precedence and case law. At the moment there is none in the UK, so bonds are neither legal nor illegal until ruled on one way or the other.
Advice I received is as long as the bond is "reasonable" (financially-for the training being done), decreasing over time, and for a fixed period (upto 5 years) you should pay the outstanding sum back if you leave early.
Bring on that brave person prepared to make case law!!!!!

dubfan - You are not in the clear and never will be until you pay up. Friend of mine who 'jumped ship' got nailed some ten years down the line, pay up or domestic flights only etc.

A bond is a contract and if you sign it you have entered into a contract, contracts are legal. A bond doesn't restrict your movement anyway, pay up and you are free to go, otherwise honour the contract you agreed to, (and thereby restricted your own movement). I'm not a lawyer or even close but that is the opinion of a friend who is.

an illegal contract IMHO is not legal!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

has anyone in the uk been taken to court for not paying up.

It really is time this was sorted once and for all.
The only body in a position to do so is BALPA: I have read their missive on the situation and it clouds the issue even further. I shudder to think how much collectively has been poored into their bottomless coffers, and for what ?

Can anyone pls post what BALPA says on this matter just for the sake of clarity? I am not asking for their website being scavenged but a nice and accurate recap.

I agree that a contract is a contract and I should be honoured in all its commas. However if such a document exists I hardly believe someone would publish it knowing they are doing something "illegal"

Stand-by for further clearence...:uhoh:

DK ;)

Interesting business this bond issue. I was bonded by a company in the US many years ago and left due to badly maintained aircraft. They took me to court and won a judgement, but in the state I was working in it was illegal to bond and the judge ordered I did not have to pay due to that fact.

I thought I was clear of this debt but found out later when applying for a mortgage that the company had the judgement placed on my credit history and it remained there for 7 years!.

So really I did get away with not paying but I did end up paying for 7 years when it came to applying for any type of credit.

winkle - I think you may have your work cut out in your efforts to determine what is and is not a legal contract.

Agreeing with someone who comes to you unqualified for the position on offer that you will teach, train and qualify them for that position and in addition the employer will agree to employ them for a minimum period of return of service but, should the employee choose to leave their employment before they have completed that return of service period, then they will compensate their employer financially for the employer's loss, doesn't sound either illegal or unfair to me. Can you quote me a bond that states that the bond is conditional on the employer/employee each honouring the original contract of employment, (not 'Bond'), and in the event of a perceived lapse the bond is void? Bonds are usually separate documents to the Contract of Employment.

(The term 'Bond' should not to be confused with actually paying hard cash up front for your own training in order to get a job, that is not a bond as is widely known in the aviation industry for the last thirty to forty years).

Please excuse punctuation, not my strong point.:)

What is the most unfair thing about bonds is the way the Taxman treats them. I had a 5 year bond which, when I worked for the company was half paid by me as a salary reduction (ie tax free) and half paid for by the company, ie a reducing the amount owed over a term of 5 years (again tax free)
When I left the company I was asked to pay back what was outstanding from my and the companies contribution, but I have to pay it back with my salary which I have already paid tax on, and the taxman says that it is considered a loan to me by the company!
Now that is unfair, and what did Balpa do when I asked them for help, yes you guessed it, :mad:all!

you are right parabellum it is a mine field, and it varies from state to state and country to country. here in the uk we also have to deal with european law. the best way forward is if you are planning to leave early is to talk to your management and try and come to some kind of deal. they may not of course play ball but if they are proving unreasonable then that may well be a mark of the company and highlights why they probably had to bond in the first place! if you offer to pay back the bond then there is nothing they can do about it. (in the uk) what might not be covered in the contract is the rate at which it must be paid back, hence the £10 a month option which i believe is called - intent.
great thread, i hope the law can be sorted one way or another. (in the uk)

Bond Paradox Can you advise me
 

Hi to you all!!
I recently received the contract and the bond for the company i will be working for.
In the bond it states that if I, the pilot OR the company terminates the relationship before expiration of the period specified.The trainee shall reimburse the training costs??????:confused:.
Isn't that a paradox????
OK i understand that if i leave i have to pay back, but why i must pay back also in the event that the fire me? I keep my side of the deal why should i pay for their decision?

PLEASE advise me what to do.I haven't signed the bond yet because i think it's crazy:ugh:.

Any help will be appreciated as this is the first bond i will be signing.

It is amazing they are adopting such a high handed approach in the present job climate. You can bet your bottom dollar they are desperate to get your bum on their seat...

Don't be emotive about this but definitely DON'T sign it - instead write to them highlighting the problem area. Keep your argument polite but be assertive! Tell them you will honour any reasonable contract but that you cannot accept financial liability for events outside your own control.

Some of you young guys and gals probably don't realise this yet but the tables are slowly turning in the aviation industry. You don't need to be treated like this any longer - use your integrity and brains to shame the airlines into giving you a sensible and reasonable job offer in the first place.

Maracaibo

As recommended, get them to review the "or the Company terminates the contract" to reread "or the Company terminates the contract for breach of contract, which would lead to dismissal, under the published Company disciplinary procedures".

That's really what they're driving at, it's just that it's very often poorly worded in many contracts.

hi,

if it is a devil company:
not the first time I hear of such practices, and I bet they will fire you 1 month before the contract expires and you will get calls from their attorney asking you how you are going to pay them back.

bonding is ILLEGAL in europe, and I don't think they have something to win in this mindgame.

if it's a good company, ask them to review the contract.If they say no, it is a devil company.
you can not sue an employee because he has been fired for no good reason.Just get a good juridic protection.