Well I'm glad I'm not part of it. :bored: I do most sincerely hope that it all works out for all concerned, who are staying for whatever reason. I hope the more inflamed posts die out, I doubt they serve much purpose really, and I also doubt whether those in management at whom the insults are aimed actually change their views, if anything I suppose all we achieve is hardening their opinions and increasing their dislike and distrust of the pilot community generally. However they really don't show much leadership do they?:p

I predict that Cheese will not last long before being exposed for what he is, and also that the remaining Sliced Bacon management will not be retained in post after their fleets are disposed of. With regard to BACON RASHER Mk 3, up in EDI, again, it has my most profound best wishes for success. I'm not sure right now who has ended up running it, but at the end of the day if sufficient investment is provided from Waterworld, it will flourish and be profitable - it all depends on what the BA accountants want to show. To my mind, the big question is what Willie's REAL strategy is; is he just keeping the slots warm, or does he intend it to have a genuine role. If the latter, then it will need to become more than an 8 or 10 aircraft operation to be equitable. The trouble I would have would be believing him and his minions after the years of lies, misdirection, and disingenuous hypocrisy which have been the hallmark of BA ever since they became involved with us. At the end of the day, you all have to make your decision and then hope you're right, it's no good projecting your worry, negative thoughts and concerns onto Prune or anywhere else as a means of sounding off - it just will not achieve anything except further polarisation of the workforce, which in turn will enable the Jim and Willie show to divide and rule!

Good luck!

The starting runners of BA Citiflyers were David Evans as CEO to be replaced by Peter Simpson ( Ex GM Finance - Bacon). P Hutchings as flight Ops to be replaced by C Phelan, Rod Wicox GM Grd Ops( ex Head of Cabin Services - Bacon), P Gruppo - Finance, IM HR & Admin ( Ex procurement BACON) and,
C McNaly - Chief Engineer ex BACON Eng)

So with lots of experience at the sharp end of Regional Aviation will these runners be there at the off?

How BACON is coping without them is anyones guess.

.....

I'll just glad to be away from BA.

Regards P.

On BACF in EDI, and "keeping the slots warm" situation. If BA announce orders for A318, then the writing will be on the wall!

Otherwise it's "Happy Days!"

i'll second that post Stepclimb, i totally agree

Why do you think that is?

Well if you are going to quote directly from the "flybereallyisok.com" website, at least change the words around a bit and avoid accountant-babble!

What you don't see, is that margins are incredibly thin, and yield management is everything (as flybe only recently realised, it seems; whilst Easyjet were managing their yield on a minute-by-minute basis, flybe were doing it on a daily basis up until a few years ago). It doesn't take much to go from triumph to disaster.

However flybe have adapted very well to the LCC model on the commercial side. Ops and Crewing are apparently still disaster areas, but then they always have been - under-resourced for many years now. That side of the business is going to be a major challenge in the days ahead. I imagine the rashers will become well acquainted with the insides of various hotels, despite what they might think about "scheduling agreements". Roster stability is a distant dream, and has been for years.

Have to say that I really rate flybe, though. They have done very well in a very short time. Jim French has demonstrated that an ex- baggage handler can outwit the BA management without trying very hard, and he remains an approachable, honest and genuinely concerned manager (inside the constraints of commercial reality of course). I would go back there in a flash if I needed a new job. There might be one or two muppets in the company, but overall they are a solid bunch. Far better than the BACON management appear to be.

Anyway... back to the pleasant smell of bacon sizzling nicely on the barbie... :}

Well, Remoak, between the Bacon Barbie jokes, for once, you almost make some valid points. I think those of us rashers who are left can see that the Flybe senior “Leadership Team,” commercial and IT are streets ahead of what BA imposed on us and the dross that clung on from within.

It is the operational side of things which are likely to let the new company down. As you say, Easy and Ryan fine tune things on the ramp by the minute and one only has to watch a Baby Formula One turn-round team in action to see how the Loco model should work. Flybe may be slightly better organised at the coalface, but in Baconland, we have suffered for year with having BA handling forced on us. In some of our more remote contracted out destinations, we do still get the full works flexible competent turn-round team meeting us and 15 -20 minute turn-rounds are achievable. In BA land however, we still regularly wait 10 minutes for chocks, 20 minutes for a GPU etc. Parked on a remote stand 1.5 miles from the crewroom? forget the on time departure, you will be lucky if you are only 30 mins late. Need transport? Don’t even think about getting in the “handling agent’s” minibus, that’s reserved for driving the mainline shuttle crews 200m to their machines.

It’s a shame to knock the BA staff, because there are some extremely competent, flexible and proactive despatchers, however, they too are let down and frustrated by the BA machine and the complete lack of management input on the front line unless there is a cappuchino bar within 20 m and its a week day between 10am and 3pm.

Interesting to read the article by le fromage in Flyer where he suggests that if you want a weekend off or need to book a day to plan personal activity, then Flybe is not for you. Strange that, since it doesn’t seem to be a problem in all the other Locos or even mainline companies. I don’t think le fromage has had this problem himself for quite some time. Every weekend guaranteed to be clear, golf on Saturday morning, all weddings and events assured and time off for “personal admin” at any time during the working week.


PS

Give up on the hotel jibes. Most rashers have come from wild west regional backgrounds and have probably clocked up more sleepless hours in flea pits than the combined Flybe workforce. Things are rightly a lot more serious these days, if companies want to get twenty five to thirty hours blocks time out of crews in five days, they do have to face up to having to provide the right support and they have to take their duty of care responsibilities seriously. If there is a noise problem or whatever with a hotel, it is not acceptable. Both the company and the operating Captain would be liable if complaints had been made and they were not acted on, particularly in the czase of a fatigue related incident. Feel free to continue to offer to sleep in the middle of the road, but you will be on your own and not cuddling up with a rasher.:=

How about giving up on the digs at Mainline too. Twenty mins at Heathrow for stand guidance, half an hour for a bus to take you home. And what are you talking about: I've never been driven anywhere in the UK by a agents bus except Man.

OK, sorry, badly put, it was meant to be a dig at the fact that under mainline control, there isn't a manager in sight to sort any front line problems out. I am sure you are well aware of this. We did our best to shed some of the dead wood managment wasters, but they just seem to end up back at LHR in promoted positions. :ugh: :ugh:

I realise that the bussing thing is a bigt issue for you at mainline too, but it's incredibly frustrating to see BA transport parked outside our crewroom doing nothing with a driver in situ and yet we have to wait thirty minutes for extrnal transport to arrive. The sad thing is that for no good reason yet another flight with a BA flight number departs thirty mintes late.

We have been reporting this sort of nonsense for five years now, but nothing ever gets done about it. I know its the same or worse at LHR, but hey, T5 will be the saviour:rolleyes: You have to realise that we are the ones who have been beaten with the make a profit or we will sell or close you for some time now. It's hardly surprising that we vent our frustration.

Fact, we used to have J41's, they were difficult to make money with, but useful for pionering new routes. Before BA bought us BRAL were able to force the going rate out of BA for handling. The day BA bought us, we had to pay the internal BA rate (almost double) and the J41 became instantly unprofitable. It had to go. So from then on, there was little hope, we have been strung along with lies ever since. :yuk:

Well, Biddedout, as it happens I was actually cooking up some bacon on the barbie when I wrote that... 25C and a light breeze from the NW where I am...

Anyway - on the subject of HOTAC, you have no idea what you are on about with regard to flybe. There is a process in flybe to ensure suitable hotels are provided, after some real dodgy places were being used about five years ago. When I left, it was a LOT better and there were no crap hotels in use. It may have changed now of course, but I doubt it. Of course the Rougemont in EXT was a bit of an exception...

Some of us spent more time in HOTAC than we spent at home (some of us, considerably more). It is, and has been, a real problem for flybe (rostering, that is).

I just love the way that you BACON guys assume that you will somehow have some mystical ability to specify your own hotels, or rosters, or whatever. You really do believe that your existing Scheduling Agreement is just going to transfer directly to flybe in toto, don't you?

Good luck with that... :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

No, I don't think "we" do. We just expect a reasonable compromise as is the case with any sensible negotiation. I uderstand that Flybe pilots and their representatives have been pressing for significant improvements in sheduling for a year or so. It seems to me that a blend of what you have now and what we have is a sensible way to proceed.
Other Locos seem to be developing sheduling patterns which create stability and the ability to plan a home life around a roster with little no no fuss. If as wew are being led to believe Flybe managent are despeately trying to maintain the ability to "own" its crews 24 hrs a day, then they may be missing the point. Many things may be changed, but endless last minute changes from earlies to lates and lates to earlies is not acceptable in any 21st century airline.

I think that you misunderstand your position in these "negotiations", any vague power you might have had is disappearing with every resignation. I realise that you have to believe that you have some power over your destiny, but you really don't have much at all.

Don't get me wrong, I think a decent Scheduling Agreement is a wonderful idea, but I also know how little success consecutive CC's have had in getting one. I'm not sure why you think your CC, that has virtually no bargaining position, is going to change things (but good luck to them).

The reason that flybe has never had the roster stability that the other LoCos have had, is partly the mix of aircraft, and partly the destinations they fly to. Oh, and also the crappy rostering software and inexperienced Crewing department. It will have to change, but it will take big bits of money to do it (always an obstacle to change).

I don't think it should be about power games. It should be about achieving stability and efficiency. Flybe seems to be missing the point if they see it as a battle to be won. the winners will be the other companies who understand these things. lets hope they get this sorted for the benefit of all.

I do agree with you.

I can remember repeating over and over again, at various meetings, the mantra about the benefits of a happy, motivated workforce. The management always agreed - in principle - but at the time, we were always in either financial or operational difficulties, and the management simply could not afford to give away ANY flexibility without risking the flying programme... so the crews always ended up being disadvantaged.

I still have a number of email exchanges on various crewing and operational matters, and I can assure you that managers were sympathetic, but hamstrung.

Things changed a lot when JF took over, and I found him to be a very reasonable and pro-active guy. He went out of his way to sort out some of the issues we had. The internal Open Channel forum also had some notable successes (although most crews probably never knew that).

I can also vouch for the fact that on several occasions, the company spent significant amounts of money to alleviate crewing problems. Again, this may not have been apparent to many crews.

I suppose my point is that with most of the flybe managers I knew, the will to do the right thing by the crews was there, but it was difficult to carry through in the environment that they were in (remember, the last few years have seem extraordinary changes in the company). I suspect that the mindset of "yes, but not now" may still be quite entrenched. I can't speak for the new guys who arrived after I left, of course. Still trying to figure out what this Cheese guy is all about.

For that reason, I suspect that the "negotiations" may not go quite the way you hope. Not because flybe see it as a "battle", but for the old reason of maintaining maximum operational flexibility and minimum cost.

BTW, one of the stormier meetings in flybe occurred just after JF took over... and was presented with the monthly HOTAC spend. I understand that the language used was abrupt and to the point!

NEWSFLASH

Hotels cost money, and if you put lots of people in lots of hotels, it will cost lots of money!

I guess that might be a little hard for a baggage handler to get his head round!

Remoak. Flybe sounds great. Why did you leave?

just about sums up why these outfits lurch from one crisis to another...appalling management.makes me wonder how they keep going for so long !

Yeah well it's a lot cheaper than employing the number of crews you would need to eliminate HOTAC, especially when you consider the reduced rate an airline gets HOTAC for.

Of course the airline could have just informed a whole bunch of crews that, with immediate effect, they were based in some place hundreds of miles from home, but they chose not to do that.

There are other issues around changing aircraft types, extremely rapid expansion, and a ton of new routes. Add to this an antiquated crewing system...

The problem is a little more complex that you apparently realise.

I left because, good as flybe might be for a regional carrier, there are other opportunities out there. I would happily go back if I ever needed to, though.

Which are you referring too....BACon or Flybe?
In what way antiquated? Flybe used to use RM which is still being used in a number of airlines, most ironically by BACon itself.
Flybe now use AIMS along with 50+ other airlines, including Easyjet, and more recently BMI.
I'm not sure you would ever class either as antiquated?

That's correct, but it was an old iteration... version 4? Can't remember. Good to hear they upgraded!

Large, two page, ad in Flight today for Flybe pilots. Lots of bases but, oddly, no base given for the Isle of Man.

Are they trialling the Isle of Man as a commercially viable route?

Curious for two reasons; we need better transport off the Island and I would apply if I could get a local base.

Comments please . . .

iom routes
 

flybe are said to be commited to maintain the LGW/MAN & BHX routes and intoduce new routes if viable ......or so they say but there basing plan is 146 & 145 for next year.

So the desperate advertising campaign for experienced pilots has started.........Two full pages in Flight and all sorts of exagerated representations about "the package".......... Dream on Jimbo!....... Having blown it with experienced employable Rashers you aint going to bottom fish the experience levels you need until you start treating your pilots properly.
Oh, another thing Jimbo. Did you know that Balpa are ballotting their Rasher pilots before adopting one single clause of the various agreements you have been trying to stick down their throats these past three months?? Apparently you werent exactly told that??
Id say youve got yourself a little bit of a problem if you go ahead with this one, because the word is that the boys and girls dont go a bundle on the new "agreements". So what with TUPE etc Id say you are going to be a bit stuck once youve lumbered yourself with this lot......
This has turned into a fiasco of the first water and I am soooooo glad I have my release ticket! ( Apart from your totaly crap terms I just dont fancy working my butt off as an unpaid training Captain with your never ending supply of two hundred hour wunderkids)

Jeez - don't start. These people are fine when things go to plan, also why should I worry - they know it all....however once it goes off the rails we have big issues. I could tell you about the go around that nearly didn't happen, the level busts that nearly happened, the (multiple) long, fast, deep landings on the runway edge, the missed or mis-read RT...that's all in the last week. I come back from what should be an easy day out and find myself knackered with these kids. Go learn somewhere else....else pay me a heap more as a trainer.

Stepclimb.A bit off topic..but Ill reply.
Not so long ago very many if not most copilots came to their first commercial job after many hundreds of hours instructing or doing taxi work.
They might not know very much about flying an airliner but basic airmanship and, above all, valuable experience had been gained in the air.
Believe you me, it is far FAR more stressful to fly with a newby who is brilliant at flying a simulator and knowing his SOPs than someone who has had some experience and already has a sound awareness.
fifty percent of FLYBEs pilots have only been there two years or less and that trend is set to accelerate wit Cheesy's latest charm offensives on the training schools.. It is for that reason I made the comment I did.

Glad to be out of it.

...They probably aren't offering the IOM as a base yet because unlike virtually all other BACOn bases, nobody has offered their resignation there. The IOM base is nearly all crewed with ex-MANX crew, all happy and determined to remain there if possible. Add to that we also have a number of folk who are marooned in MAN or BHX as a result of the removal of the DH3 that was put there to replace the THREE ATPs we had and it adds up the the fact that there's a queue to get back.

I've been there 9 years, and with 6,000hrs and a long way up the ladder on the seniority list I'm still nowhere near the LHS seat there yet. One up from the bottom actually! If the plans to put a 145 there, then replace it with one or two DH4's comes to fruition, then I reckon they'll need 10-12 F/Os over the next two years for the Island, with possible commands coming for those who join first in about three years when the bulk of the current 146 skippers retire.

If you really want to join Flybe for the Island, either hang on or get a MAN base for now. Best of luck.

Hmmm...
 

So what exactly are experienced F/Os? A frozen ATPL and recent flying, they say. But with time on the Legacy (ERJ135) gained in GA, I'm hardly going to want to go join the "vast majority" on the Q400, no matter how "jet-like" its performance (but NOT pay), am I!

Where do I fit into this picture?:suspect:

It's getting off the topic, but I've flown with a fair few 200 hr F/Os at Flybe and don't remember any of them with an "I am wonderful and know it all" attitude. Often the worst offenders for that are those with a bit of GA time who thingk that they are either a) to good to be flying a turbo prop or b) deserving of a command because they have an ATPL and 1600 hrs. I'll fly with the 200 hr guys any time, at least they have enthusiasm.

Ooh, that's an unfortunate misunderstanding of my post, excrab!

I simply don't think I'm too good for a turboprop and I can't be deserving of command until someone else thinks I am, can I?!

It's only that having jet experience, and Embraer experience at that, the logical step (for me, at least) is to go to the 195, no? That's just the path I'm on right now and it's not clear to me that this recruitment drive will support that.

I was once a 200hr FO and I was very enthusiastic. And I still am! Brilliant!

I guess we are a bit off topic, so you gonna let me have the last word, then?! ;)

There is no way, on this planet at least, that you are going to end up going to the 195. It has nothing to do with logic, and everything to do with seniority, which of course has it's own logic. Flybe is far more desperate for Q400 crews than 195 crews. Even if it was offered, I suspect a lot of Q400 F/Os would have something to say.

Where do you fit in this picture? Joining the mass exodus to Big Orange, I suspect, if you simply must fly a jet!

Anotherflapoperator, Thanks for your post. I note the 'thirty five years behind the times' location' so I understand the lack of resignations! It's the Island I want not Flybe so I will hang on.

Hope all goes well for your family with the takeover.

Regards, S.

the level busts that nearly happened, the (multiple) long, fast, deep landings on the runway edge, the missed or mis-read RT
Hang on, that remiinds me of a couple of 10,000hr+ Captains I fly with? Who's training who? With a bit of guidance those low hour F.O.'s can be streaks ahead of some of the old farts.....

Anybody else noticed the apparent contradiction in attitudes here?

Along the lines of 'the Q400 is absolutely fantastic, easily as good as any jet. Why do you want to fly jets'

on the one hand, and...

'Don't think you're getting anywhere near one of our TTJs (Toy Town Jets) they're reserved exclusively for those that have done our time!'

One way or another, this is going to be a mess!

The wings - sorry, I hadn't seen your post when I typed that. It wasn't meant as a dig at anyone in particular.

4468 - No contadiction at all. The sad thing is that a jet F/O or Captain at Flybe still earns considerably more than their counterpart on the Q400. That is the main reason for the attitude you are seeing. At the moment there are plenty of jobs out there even for Q400 pilots if they want to move on. Most of those trying to change fleet are possibly planning to stay because of being happy based where they are, but would like to earn more. If you take into consideration that it takes between 6 - 8 years of seniority to get a LHS on a jet at Flybe you'll see why they are not happy about the idea of direct entry pilots going straight into the embraer.

DEC Jet
 

They are desperate for pilots, hence the two page ad in Flight, so if I say I'll only join if you give me DEC jet then with my experience that's what I'll get or I won't join. Simple as that.

BMB

You won't get a DEC Jet. Period! The courses are booked up till the end of the year and there are dozens of very senior Captains waiting for next years allocation.

Q400 - yes. And they'll ask you if you can bring a friend too.

British Airways regional subsidiary BA Connect have advised the flights shown below to/from Birmingham have been cancelled due to operational reasons.

15 February 2007
BA4171/4170 - To and from Aberdeen - cancelled
BA1754/5 - To and from Hanover- cancelled
BA1810/1 - To and from Paris(CDG) - cancelled

16 February 2007
BA1741/2 - To and from Stuttgart - cancelled
BA4153/4 - To and from Geneva - cancelled
BA1735/1764 - To and from Glasgow - cancelled

17 February 2007
BA7711/2 - To and from Lyon - cancelled
BA4193/4 - To and from Berlin (Tegel) - cancelled

19 February 2007
BA7715 - From Birmingham to Lyon-passengers re-accommodated onto BA7711
BA7716 - From Lyon to Birmingham -cancelled with no alternative.

20 February 2007
BA1741 - From Birmingham to Stuttgart- passengers re-accommodated onto BA1743
BA1742 - From Stuttgart to Birmingham - passengers re-accommodated onto BA1740

22 February 2007
BA1772 - From Birmingham to Hamburg- passengers re-accommodated onto BA1774
BA1773 - From Hamburg to Birmingham - passengers re-accommodated onto BA1775

BA4153 - From Birmingham to Geneva- cancelled with no alternative
BA4154 - From Geneva to Birmingham - cancelled with no alternative

BA1762 - From Birmingham to Frankfurt- passengers re-accommodated onto BA1766
BA1763 - From Frankfurt to Birmingham - passengers re-accommodated onto BA1767

24 February 2007
BA1754 - Birmingham to Hanover- cancelled with no alternative
BA1755 - Hanover to Birmingham- cancelled with no alternative

BA1833 - Birmingham to Glasgow- passengers re-accommodated onto BA1757
BA1738 - Glasgow to Birmingham- passengers re-accommodated onto BA1736

this sort of stuff should be made illegal :
http://www.flybe.com/vacancies/pilots_benefits.htm
Point 2 - Published 6 weeks in advance, don't believe it - you'll be lucky to get it by the 20th of the month for the following month, and in any case it won't work out that way. Multiple changes along the way - just to help you "plan your Life".
stable roster and flybe are 2 words that just don't go together.
Do the management of flybe not realise, that with the exception of newbees, most pilots talk to each another and know what it's really like to work for them. Maybe they should put all this effort into making it a better company to work for and they wouldn't be having the pilot retention problems that they've got.

Not just pilot retention - Engineers too -

My notice goes in next shift

Now I'm happy

BAE146???:{ :{

The recent ads on the website and in Flight contain 'spin' in the extreme. Whilst I admit that £50k for a Direct Entry Captain (DHC8 of course) is not bad, £82k is an absolute lie. Looking at the pay scales that figure would be achievable only by a 146/195 Captain with 17 years seniority!

I agree with 40hm, that sort of advertising shouldn't be allowed. However, we're an intelligent bunch, and it only takes a couple of clicks on the mouse to uncover the real Flybe package. :=