Trouble at Monarch??
 

I hear that over 10 FO's have recently resigned from Monarch and at least double that number are in the pipeline. Not to mention the fact that almost every other FO on the 320/1 fleet at Manchester seems to be actively looking to move!

It appears that in the light of a whole multitude of gripes, guys are voting with their feet. As the company slips ever increasingly towards becoming "Ryan Air II", management seem happy to bury their heads and enjoy their skiing trips... meanwhile in Manchester 320 guys are maxing out on hours whilst other fleets sit at home and enjoy the productivity bonus. Thanks for vetoing the idea of sector pay chaps...:{

So come and work at Manchester! Work twice as hard, get effectively half the pay and don't mention the laughable pension scheme... And what ever happened to the scheduling agreement?? A mere 24 plot changes this month.. oh the joy of it all... now where is my Cv??:mad:

Scarebus321,
If you dont like Mon then move on, go to Ryanair, Easy, J2 etc. In a couple of years the guys you joined with will be joining RS on his ski flights whilst you will be doing the same as you are now . Nobody forced you to join and the T&C's havent changed since.
Good luck with CV.

Why does Pilot movement indicate trouble?. This is natural for Pilots - mercenary action and the grass is always greener.
Good luck with the job hunting

Problem is that pilots were recruited into London bases when the airline was expanding up north. Pilots of course refuse to be rebased so spend ridiculous amounts of time in Hallmark limos being ferried up and down motorways when if the crewing agreements allowed they should be rebased. Consequently the guys in situ are having to work their contracted max hours. Hardly arduous. Go work for Easy/Ryr and see what the "greener" grass is like.......

Trouble at Monarch
 

It is not just the junior F/O's leaving for pastures new, I hasten to add, going to Virgin and BA. Several Senior F/Os on the old Monarch contracts have given up Command courses this year and prospective courses for next year to leave. These guys are not just on the A320/1 at Manchester.

I don't think any have gone to Easy or Ryanair but unfortunately as stated previously, Monarch are going down the low cost route and do not have competitive payscales, sector pay, however I believe it is being negotiated. Atleast by working hard you do get the financial compensation and possibly not get the 15-24 plot changes in a fortnight!!
Even on the A320 at BA, where some are destined, atleast rosters are stable, good staff travel and the possibility to transfer to other fleets after initial freeze.

At the end of the day, the grass isn't necessarily greener, just different and different lifestyles suit different people.
Monarch isn't the same place as it was and the younger New Entrants are treating it as a Training Organisation to get the jet experience to move on to better, larger operators where more opportunities are available to them.

DoorPost, couldn't have put it better myself!
This is not just about new entrants - thank you Qwertyuiop (I think the sand is well and truly in your ears) but also about guys giving up command courses. Not only do we lose a wealth of experience but also people who are part of the unique and freindly mould that is Monarch. We have always prided ourselves on being a friendly place and a career airline - a place where in the past resignations were almost unheard of.

As DoorPost rightly says, many of the new entrants are using the company as a stepping stone to what they deem "better things". Management and the accountants seem all to happy to let this continue - rather than looking at the causes and addressing our very real concerns. As Qwertyiop points out, the "T&C's havent changed" since many joined. Indeed.

Everyone elses have though...

Thought there was a monarch forum for these type of moans, unless you are actually trying to muddy the monarch name or make others think twice about joining this rather stable and well respected institution;)

This is a public forum. The opinions of induviduals whether good or bad are given often, regardless of the company in question.
Monarch has a nice touchy feely way about it but facts are facts. New pay scale is not good, pension is worse and the roster stability can be awful. Say what you want, the terms and conditions are poor compared to other outfits doing the same job. Monarch is not Easyjet or Ryan Air.
Those off to BA or VS are looking 30 years down the road and in my opinion it's the only way to go.
:ok: :ok: :ok:

canav8er is right, Monarch can not be compared to ryan air and sleezy. If the F/O's arent happy, leave! Monarch for some reason find it very easy to replace their crew.

Those ATC FO's work for basic only - until they receive there contract. They can always recruit them to scrape the bottom of a 321.

Monarch have a harsh whip and a memory like an Elephant. Complain to them and your Foubarred.

Or mayby go on a boeing course...and have the winter off:} :)

Or maybe the 300??? and hey look what I found in a previous post ...

" A few have left, most enjoy it and the majority live in fear of getting an A320/321 type conversion (bond free)."

Why ever could that be:D ???

Yes, those who say "if you don't like it, leave" will be A300/757/A330 - head up @rse ignorant of the reality of MAN 320/1!

Trouble at Monarch
 

Unwiseowl

Regarding your comment, I must inform you that half a dozen guys, mostly senior on the A300/757/A330 are in the process of leaving and considerably more on the A320/1.
The options to join the larger outfits are out there, even for the A320 crews in Manchester. It is no secret that the Manchester base is the hardest working,however, the point was made that if you are not enjoying yourself up there, other options are available!!

Doorpost, like scarebus, I thought what you said originally was acurate and reasonable.

The main problem is that longer serving MON pilots, especially the CC, are fat dumb and happy. They are on the nice fleets with PHI, Final salary pension and excellent wages, by any industry standard. Most line guys are truly astonished to discover that we are so far behind the industry standards, let alone their package.

The CC and pilot body allowed appalling conditions to be imposed on new joiners and what little fight was put up was ONLY to prevent the possibility of erosion of their pay, as we would be able to negotiate separate pay awards by virtue of the fact that we would have had an entirely separate pay scale.

The CC accepts that all life style enhancing negotiations have to be cost neutral. Why is that? Everyone other similar carrier has these protections so why do we just roll over? They also allow us to be compared to RYR et al. Why? They aren't flying A330's (when they get they aren't out of check), nor are they doing deep night flights and getting 20+ plot changes a month.

Why would the management improve terms and conditions for new joiners when they are well aware that the majority of the pilots and especially the CC, have everything they need and therefore no commitment to the real confrontation that is required. However all is not lost, after a bitter struggle they have persuaded the company to allow them to set up a committee to discuss pensions! Well we'll eat that when we get to 65 shall we???

So X11, why exactly did you sign on ? presumably you read the contract you were being offered and accepted the terms and conditions you were signing up to ? Despite what you suggest these "appalling" terms and conditions were not imposed on you. They were offered to you as a new joiner after they were introduced. It was you that accepted them.

As regards the conditions for pre existing pilots you are probably correct, however over the next 10 to 15 years most of those pilots will have moved off the normal retirement point and then the planned transformation will be virtually complete. I agree that T&Cs are worse for the new joiners, but unfortunetaly this is the new reality of life in the world of low cost airlines, pay as you go training, and shovelling 250 hour "experienced" co-pilots into the right seat of every other jet.

All of this isn't to say that I don't have some sympathy with many of the points you make, but I keep coming back to the same question. Why did you sign on and accept this ? :confused:

X11,

I think you may have hit the nail firmly on the head when mentioning our glorious CC - what a waste of bloody space they are...All we ever hear from them is "final salary pension scheme" and anything else is totally irrelevant. Aren't pilots supposed to be able to multi-task?? Even negotiating the latest pension deal has been a complete farce - What's the difference between a dog and the CC?? Management have to tell a dog to roll on its back....

It seems they are only interested in protecting their very nice postions and don't give two hoots about the rest of the company and the mess they will leave it in when they retire.. And whoever agreed on this ludicrious "cost neutral" idea??? Everything has a cost, so lets get a bit more realistic and start looking after fellow crew - which is what they are supposed to do - and please dont give me the old "if you dont like it move on" clap trap - If some people pulled their fingers out and stood up to the changes we would ALL be much better off, people would not be leaving and maybe some of the goodwill would return...:ok:

Beelzebub

Just because you were desperate for a job once doesn't mean that you have to tolerate gross imbalance / injustice in T&C's for ever. Those that joined through CTC had little choice which carrier they were allocated to. You appear to be a fairly typical earlier generation MON pilot in that you do not realise that OUR PACKAGE IS NOT EVEN IN LINE WITH THE LOCO's! And if you’re so resigned to the fact that the LOCO attitude is inevitable then you will have no objection to me voting to scrap scale B and close the FS pension to future accrual at the earliest possible opportunity. Didn't think so.

I notice that no one said to you guys that "if you don't like having to put more into the FS pension pot then leave....after all you signed the contract".
No the full effort of the CC was put into reaching a swift solution. Not a "we are bearing it in mind" solution, you will note.

It's the high seniority FO's and low seniority Capt's that need to start lobbying for a change of attitude, because it is them that will one day be faced with a CC and voting majority that know that they were hung out to dry by the apathy / ignorance of what will then be the minority. See what happens when the next FS crisis rears its ugly but inevitable head when we are sat on a pittance of a pension contribution, long after the people with the current union power are sat on their FS pensions.

X11 and Scarebus321.

From what I can see, niether of you have ever posted on the Monarch site. I have to ask, do you actually work for Monarch?

qwertyuiop

Oh you mean that one where you are obliged to present your real name and staff number to god knows who?

Are you really arrogant enough to believe that anyone who has a strong opinion that isn't in line with your own couldn't possibly be an employee of the great utopia that is Monarch Airlines!

Get real.

Gentlemen, we are all suffering from the "Curse of the ????" and his master.Unfortunately Wallace and Grommet are not performing as well as our expensive union dues demand so "we are all doomed "to quote another fictional character. Just because someone does not post on the Monarch private thread should be no reason to dismiss them!I believe some of the posters have some very valid points and as this has been done on a public forum it will deter all apart from the most desperate from joining when the exodus really gets going in the near future.The only point i would disagree with is that the old stagers such as myself will be outnumbered as with the current departure of so many junior pilots it will be only people who cannot afford to leave that are left in the ruins of a once great happy company.:}

X11, you say that " Just because you were desperate for a job once doesn't mean that you have to tolerate gross imbalance / injustice in T&C's for ever. "

well yes and no. I make the point again that you signed up to these terms. No one forced you to, and presumably you were aware that you were accepting terms and conditions that were inferior to those on offer in earlier days. It is hard to imagine you could have been unaware since the union was making a major issue of it at the time. You may recall that a compromise was reached that in part resulted in what is now known as the unified salary scale. If you were so desperate why didn't you take a job with another carrier who offered terms and conditions more to your liking ? you say that "Those that joined through CTC had little choice which carrier they were allocated to.". With respect those that joined through that scheme had very little experience in the main and were lucky and priviliged to be offered jet placements with levels of experience that in the past would not in all likelyhood have resulted in such placements. Many CTC cadet pilots have gone on to do very well and you probably now fly with some of them in command positions. Nevertheless in the past most F/O's traditionally were recruited from the Air force and as experienced pilots from other carriers. Perhaps a point worth remembering ?

Another point you bring up is concerning Final salary pensions and low cost operators. Monarch was historically an I.T/ charter airline with competitive indeed good terms and conditions during much of the last two decades. More recently it has become something of a hybrid, whereby a good percentage of its operation is now as a Low cost scheduled carrier, and the rest is in the traditional IT business within a much tighter and reduced marketplace. It has always been a business ( not a utopia, not a social service, and not a training scheme for the disaffected ). It has been a hard nosed business that has had to profit to survive. To profit it has like many other businesses had to adapt to remain afloat. In recent times that has meant adapting to the competition imposed by the single "LOCO" operators. You know the ones I mean, that include making their pilots pay for their training, their uniforms, medicals, assesments, interviews and sometimes even to read their C.V's. It is in this segment of the market that the terms and conditions are now being pitched.
Do I like it ? No not really.
Do I care ? Oh yes. I think it has significant potential problems for the near term future of the whole industry.

You state in respect of final salary pensions, that, "you will have no objection to me voting to scrap scale B and close the FS pension to future accrual at the earliest possible opportunity. Didn't think so.
" I am not sure what vote you are referring to, but what ever it is, you can vote as you see fit. Unlike you, I do not presume to speak for you. In an earlier reply I thought I had already made the point that the transformation process would likely be complete in another 10 to 15 years, and a significant swing to the ideas you suggest would be likely well before then.

The reason nobody suggested leaving rather than having to make greater contributions to the FS scheme is twofold. On the one hand the logic would be sufficiently tortured to arouse the attention of Amnesty International. Secondly my contract has no clause within it that prevents the FS scheme being altered or indeed wound up at some future date. I have never been under the illusion that I could not seek out better conditions elsewhere at any point in my career with the company. However it has been a solid business and has been fair to me as I have to it. I think that is probably the case with most people here.

You have an absolute right to seek to improve your terms and conditions by whatever means you see fit. If that means people move to other carriers then so be it. If it means people fight from within likewise. I make the point yet again that this is a business within a marketplace. It must profit to survive and it is still subservient to the basic economic laws of supply and demand determining price. Your irritation and annoyance however justified, is not in itself going to usurp the realities of economics or business. Nor is that same attitude vented against the people who have invested a major portion of their working lives in this business, going to garner much support for you. However you are right in that eventually your day will come and you will be in the majority. I hope that when that day happens the market forces are on your side.

What's all the fuss about ? if your not happy, leave. The management arn't going to be bothered untill they can't get pilots, the threat of people leaving ain't gonna make any difference whatsoever....

Sorry, that comment just does not stand up against the facts: We have a seniority system in this industry and a change of job will inevitably mean loss of / delayed command. Better to stay and try to improve things. Or should we all leave BALPA and let market forces take their course?
"if your (sic) not happy, leave" = I'm alright, and I'm not interested in your plight.
Management must be chuffed about how they've managed to split us.

What a sad attitude.

How do you think pilot employment terms are a shadow of that of 20 years ago? - Because successive pilot liason groups have each said do whatever you like to the new guys - just please don't touch our nice cosy little deal. New pilots have little option but to accept what is offered because this cowardice is going on in almost every airline.

So I shudder to think what the terms will be like in another 20 years time.

Airlines are just building problems for themselves in the future. If they don't offer decent T&Cs, pilots won't consider them as career airlines and will move on. (But how many of these pilots can BA take on?)

Have things at Monarch changed much since the arrest of old B.P.

At 73 he must have had a fully paid up pension.

Would that be "Bennie the tractor"?

"The Phantom of Corleone"

Bealzebub

Pontificate all you like about how privileged us low houred irks are to be allowed the opportunity to be patronised by you, but please also try to address some of the issues that are being discussed.

There is a huge disparity in conditions which you understandably favour but we do not and no amount of condescension will change that fact. The company CAN afford to give us all fair terms and will have to do so if we are properly represented.

Sure X11,

Wrap yourself up in your cloak of indignancy if it keeps you warm, but you still haven't addressed the point as to why you accepted these terms ?

X11,
Have you put your name up for election onto the CC? If not, why not?

X11
 

Are you the BHX F/O that said to me "we'll close down your pension scheme, as soon as we're in the majority"?

Are you a BALPA member?

I recently travelled with Monarch and knew they were on a dodgy wicket when they sold me this seat for £40 extra to get the 'extra legroom'. Spot where your legs go.
Demanded refund from CEO and got told to p**s off.
http://www.mlsoftware.freeserve.co.uk/seat pitch.jpg
If that is how they treat customers, how do you expect them to treat crew?

X11 "The main problem is that longer serving MON pilots, especially the CC, are fat dumb and happy."

X11 by extension, guess what we really need on the CC are a few lean, intelligent, unhappy types. Well, if the cap fits, perhaps you would be brave enough to submit a manifesto.

I guess you'll probably have to join BALPA first, so once you've put your money where your mouth is, give us a clue who to vote for, until then do us all a favour and wind your neck in boyo.

Finman
 

At the risk of thread creep, as a Monarch employee, I have to say, I can see your point. Sorry.

CEO - PB. The seat next to the slide bustle is only fit for a one legged vertically challenged individual or a small child. To offer that seat to a six foot adult for a 9 hour fllight is criminal. The only option for the person in that seat is to extend their legs into the space of the person next to them - space they paid extra for - only to have to share it! Monarch have lost the plot and I will not use them again.

X11 must be aspiring to be the next willie walsh. :hmm:

Nothing more would we all like to see than better terms and conditions across the industry, but whilst people sell themselves short and sign up to cXXp contracts with others behind them willing to do so, management will continue to take the oportunity to lower ALL our benifits and destroy any lifestyle outside of the company. Not just happening in aviation ! :ouch:

All investment is for short term gain/greed, not long term customer and staff support. :mad:

I always feel that there are so many people who most likely have not had any experience of T&C's elsewhere who suddenly become experts in the discussion. Few of us seem aware that if you ask anyone working any job in any industry, they will most likely tell you that they want more money and better conditions. That is human nature. It is no different in aviation.

It does not matter how much people are paid, they will want more if someone somewhere else is getting more than them. Fact is that, if MON, under the current T's & C's, offered greater pay and a better pension than anyone else, not one person would give out. The same would apply for any other company. It is greed pure and simple.

I have come from my previous job where there was no health care, a pension scheme where the company added just 10% OF OUR CONTRIBUTION, where you ate what you brought with you and where as an LTC I was earning £41,000 including all sector pay and expenses. Now, as an FO I earn £42,000 before extras, and while it's not the best pension on the planet, it's a far cry from what I had before. I take home £2,500 a month and that is plenty.

900 hours a year in a 320/321 on 2 sector days is a hell of a lot easier to take physically than the 750 hours a year on 6 sector days I was used to on a turboprop. Where before my days off were used to recover from the weeks work, now I can actually enjoy them.

I can't complain about MON because I am a hell of alot better off than I was in my old place. Sure there are better conditions in other companies, but I don't want to live in London or the middle east or wherever and at the end of the day I didn't apply to them.

By all means, we should try for better T's & C's, but at the end of the day, if you don't like it, get out. I think there is nothing more sad than a 10 year pilot who has spent 9 years giving out about the company he works for. I am in aviation because I enjoy flying and because I know that if I leave this industry I will be cutting my salary in half.

Bealzebub

Whose cloak is thicker mine of indignation or yours of self righteousness?

Querty / Mach buffet

I am rapidly swimming towards the top of another pool where the existing workforce haven't sold out the incoming one for their own gain so I don't need to join your union / CC or anything else, but that doesn't change the facts.

DH121

Don't remember that conversation but treat as you wish to be treated!