What are everybody’s thought's on the rumours that PM has said he will sell the company if the unions get involved?

It’s definitely time for a private forum.

Survey results - disappointing response
 

We need to move on and only 11 pilots have responded so I'm wrapping it up. Reasons could be:

Apathy
Fear
Disillusionment with Pprune after all the Jet2-bashing there's been
Mistrust of my identity - for obvious reasons it could be employment suicide if it got out so it has to remain confidential

It's statistically meaningless but for what it's worth:

3 are BALPA members, 2 are IPA/IPF and 1 is in the TGWU
5 would join BALPA if this was the majority decision
8 would join the TGWU if this was the majority decision
All would be willing to pay a bit towards a private Pprune forum
Responses are roughly in proportion to base size and evenly split between Captains and F/O's

My thanks to those who took the trouble to respond.

Well that'll please em. Meeson will be opening the Bolly this afternoon.

I think this needs looking at again when (if) we have a private forum.

Quite a few are understandably concerned about airing their laundry in public.

R

On another thread MANBLK asks for my thoughts on joint unionisation (T&GW for all flight crew and ground staff) maybe my views as ground based staff hold little sway in this particular thread but here goes, there would seem to be a general view amongst head office staff that its far too late for any kind of union input for most of us. I personally think that a union would not acheive much against the type of management operated by Jet2.

From what I have read in this thread, there is far too much division between the staff for any one union to be effective. For a union to be effective it must have the support of its members, and while an air of "them and us" exists between flight deck, cabin crew and ground staff no single union could hope to achieve meaningful results.

I do feel that unionisation is a good thing, but I would venture to sugest that each of the groups within the company should persue solidarity behind the union best suited to their different needs.

Sorry for any thread drift, and feel free to ignore my thoughts after all, I'm only ground staff.


ILS

No need to apologise, ILS, that's actually very useful - thanks.

Rudolf.... dare I ask where this rumour came from? Would PM give it all up that easily? Sounds like cutting off your nose to spite your face... Mind you I heard a rumour a while back (and that's all it was) that Jet2 was being built up to sell it.

...........to MOL......

something like that......

Off another thread:
-------------------------------

http://www.pprune.org/forums/images/...ons/icon14.gif I've heard that Astraeus have just had a good pay deal through the IPA/IPF
I've heard that Astraeus have just had a good pay deal through the IPA/IPF and that the most pilots are happy with the pay deal. And they managed to get it sorted very quickly.

May be we should consider this when dealing with paydeals.
--------------------------------

At Jet2, are we justified in dismissing the IPA/IPF? They are pilot-orientated if nothing else - and cheap.

Thread drift, but relevant.... Rumour has it that at least one Jet2 757 pilot who was doing his line training with Astaeus has resigned Jet2 to go to Astraeus. Must tel you something!

Repeated from previous post:

"BALPA subscriptions are 0.5% of salary for the first year. For a Captain on £62k a year that is £310 per annum.

But 67% of BALPA subscriptions are tax deductible, so 67% of annual subscription, £207.70 gets added to your tax code; i.e. the amount you are allowed to earn before taxation starts.

That leaves an annual subscription of £102.30, or £8.53 a month."

IPA/IPF membership is: £12 to join, £6 monthly thereafter. 12 x £6 = £72 + £12 joining fee = £84. £84 / 12 = £7 a month IPA/IPF membership.

To my knowledge the IPA/F are not recognised by the Revenue as a trade union therefore not eligible for tax relief on membership fees.

BALPA membership is £1.53 more per month than the IPA/F, less than one sector payment. What is all this twaddle about BALPA being too expensive:confused:

Not quite, Maat.

Sub of £310, tax relief of 40% on 67% of it:

310 - (310 x .67 x .4) = 227 = £19 pm, £38 pm in year 2 onwards


For a F/O on say £36000:

180 - (180 x .67 x .22) = 132 = £11 pm, £22 pm in year 2 onwards


Cheaper than most of us might have thought, I would agree.

Fowler Welch/Coolchain TGWU :ok: . Better T + C s than yo lat of pros :eek: . Wheres tha Beer n Butties Harold :{ ! me Yorkie gettin saft

Itsonthebox, brilliant! This thread needs a bit of light relief.


Cargo Boy,

I think it IS relevant. Pilots who are part of an established structure where 100% BALPA is the norm cannot understand why it is so difficult for the rest of us to get there.

But it is difficult, very. Ask an original 1980's VS guy how long it took for BALPA to get a real grip. From Virgin's start, my guess is 10 years plus. You've arrived with it all set up for you.

Once you've got the membership, the biggest headache is actually convincing management that the union is the expected medium for communication - and that's even without the personalities at Jet2.

pilothouse, I can assure you that I speak from experience. Having worked for a company that didn't have recognition but subsequently merged with one that did and eventually organised itself to one where the IPF were 'imposed' on us and had a joint representative council (just ask Silverhawk) to my current airline which has some of the best T's & C's thanks to the pilot workforce getting their act together and realising that only by having a high membership of the only union that has experience in representing pilots.

No one said it would be easy to galvanise your colleagues into agreeing to be represented by Balpa, especially considering the backgrounds of most of them and the lack of experience of many with other airlines. However, to read on here the suggestions that anyone other than Balpa would be able to do a better job or, even worse, being represented as part of the whole workforce, however utopian you may think that is, just grates and shows how easy it is for your management to have you all running around like headless chickens.

Those who are complaining about the cost of Balpa membership and arguing about, at most, a couple of quid a month difference, fail to realise that the benefits of having powerful representation more than offset that difference. You only have to see how the Ryanair pilots have faired since they had exactly the same arguments that are being bandied about in this thread a few years ago.

Even if you do manage to persuade your colleagues to get their acts together and all join the same union, preferably the only one with experience in representing pilots, you will still need to elect from amongst the membership a company council who will be prepared to fight your corner. Not an easy task in itself but knowing people like Silverhawk and others there, I'm sure they'd be prepared to make the effort and with the professional support and training they can get from Balpa itself, would eventually make a difference.

What you don't want is a fractured workforce with a few here and a few there members of different unions and you most certainly don't want to have to negotiate your terms and conditions with cabin crew and office staff as they have different aspirations. Don't forget that pilots are considered as middle management in most companies. You have put in a huge amount of effort and money to get your licence and to remain current. You are expected to take responsibility for hundreds of lives and millions of pounds of equipment every day. That responsibility is not given to just anyone and unless you realise that, putting yourself forward as part of the wider company employee group which includes less skilled, trained and most importantly - checked individuals just demeans your status. Unless... you want to accept that the lowest common denominator will prevail in any discussions you get with your management.

Get your priorities right. Work towards getting the majority of your fellow pilots to join the only union that can represent you in your specialised area. Stop harping on about the cost. As has been pointed out it is less than many think and even then it is more than offset once you get recognition and a decent deal.

Whilst I may be preaching to deaf ears, you only have to see what is happening at easyJet. They have been continually shafted over the years as they were unable to get themselves organised using precisely the same arguments that you see in this thread. The same happened at Virgin. It was only after continuous shafting of a divided workforce that the light was seen and the pilots finally got their act together. A large majority joined the only union that has experience representing pilots and finally elected a company council, who, with the backing of trained Balpa negotiators, were able to negotiate a decent settlement and acceptable T's & C's.

If you can't see how it works or you can't persuade your colleagues how it works then you will just be exactly where you are today, divided and undervalued. If it takes 10 years then that's how long it takes but at least you've got modern communications and the internet to get your message across so use it and start convincing the waiverers.

Your correct pilothouse, I just checked.

Cargo boy is spot on though. But we might have to wait longer than 10 years.

Virgin only took experienced pilots with industry experience; it didn’t take the workforce that long to realise that despite Dickey’s charm, wit and charisma they were the lowest paid long haul pilots. No big deal in the early days; three trips a month on the classic, garden party at the boss’s house etc. Nice place to work but not massive money.

Easy to a lesser extent, but they still took relatively experienced pilots who had seen something of airline life before. The attraction to a lot I’m sure was no night flying & home every night. It might have been worth a pay drop compared to charter airlines; the work was nicer.

And I suppose that is where we at Jet2 are now. As pilothouse as pointed out before, it’s not a bad place to work particularly in MAN. Hardly any 4 sector days, decent rosters, crewing and Rostering that go out of their way to help. It’s OK.

But where I think we are different is; we take Captains and FO’s who just don’t have the experience of the industry. We do have some FO’s who have worked in commuter type airlines or in other jet airlines, but for many Channex/Jet2 is their first airline and they know nothing else. They have no experience of BALPA representation and possibly assume Arthur Scargill is a principal negotiator for BALPA. Plus to be fair, many have just paid for their pilots licence and then the type rating; they are on the breadline, some with £100K debts. They can’t afford BALPA.

It’s a similar situation with Captain’s. We do have Capts who do have similar type experience somewhere else, but all that stopped in 2003 and since then we have mainly direct entry RAF Captains new to airlines, Captains with only commuter airline experience on B146, EMB 145, ERJ etc; those promoted from within Channex for whom Jet2 remains their first airline. The point being none of them come from a background where they have experienced the benefits of BALPA representation. It’s an easy workforce to walk all over.

Please don’t think I am making negative comments about pilots of certain backgrounds ability, abilty varies as with any other airline. Also, we have some industry veterans; they are here because of the lifestyle Jet2 offers, for the moment.

So for now we carry on as normal, having a reasonable life. But it wont last, any more than it lasted in VS or EZY. I think the difference is our workforce will be slower to realise this and they might just carry on being shafted and accept it, as they did in their previous lives. It’s surprising really, as stated elsewhere on this thread, we have several examples of how pilots have been shafted before. The F27 fleet disposal and the Airbus fleet disposal are examples. The Airbus pilots already have BALPA to thank. They would have been made redundant when the A300 went, then would have had to re-apply for their jobs and pay for the type rating on B737/757 and would not have been paid during the type rating course. Head Of Legal Service BALPA intervened and the bus pilots were transferred to other fleets. Would the T & G or IPA/IPF achieved this?

Excellent post, Maat.

Cargo boy, I don't think we'll be spread amongst several unions. It'll either be all of us in the wrong union, or not enough of us in the right one and the rest in no union at all.

Unions
 

For my two peneth worth, I would love to join a union but I don't want to join the wrong one. I think it is silly for me to cough for a union not knowing where everyone else will go. BAsically we need to set out a 'who where and when' scenario for everyone involved. Perhaps MAN BLK can PM all that responded to his survey so we have a good idea what to do with our union subs and when we need to do it.

Not particularly elloquent but I think you get the gist

Box

Sorry, not enough response to indicate.

Perhaps there is light at the end of the tunnel. Couldn't help but notice this post by "Al E.Vator" on another thread:

---------------------
Scuse me.....don't work for you chappies but:

Given the following, wouldn't it be a very silly airline manager that p1ssed his aircrew off too much:

Emirates: by many accounts about to meltdown. Not enough pilots (recruiting is only replacing those who leave). Pilots at max hours and leave cancelled etc. Currently not increasing pay and conditions but watch this space. 1 aircraft per minute for the next 100 years or whatever they are getting. I believe there were not enough 'traditional' Euro-type pilots so they turned to India & Philippines, but...

India: Already melting down. Not enough pilots. Something like 4000 qualified captains needed in the next 2 years? Check out the ever-improving contracts there.

Philippines: Major problems, so many pilots leaving that they are having trouble manning flights. Not enough pilots.

Japan: Some of the better paying pilot positions (for the present, will only get better) but even then, major problems creeping up. Something like 40% of the ANA and JAL pilot group must leave due age over the next 3 years. There just aren't the replacements. Not enough pilots.

Asia Generally: Cathay need 200+ pilots per year. Singapore need many as well. Mainland China is booming and can only train 400 pilots annually when over 2000 are required. Korean, China Airlines, Eva and Asiana all have major replacement/expansion plans and simply too few pilots for this. Not enough pilots.

Qatar/Etihad etc: What will they do? they have Not enough pilots.

The answer is of course they will all have to offer the option of workable bases in home countries for expat pilots, better money and sensible rostering. Whoever doesn't will have parked airframes costing lost of $$$$ and it will be their own fault.

Flying schools just aren't producing the numbers they have historically and airforces have downsized and also don't lose the numbers of pilots they once did.

It is therefore a brave (suggest very stupid) manager who choses this time to belittle his pilots (as a certain Ryanair personality choses to) or degrade their work conditions, particularly if this is done by stealth via Trojan Horse 5/4 plans etc.

Anybody remember Frank Lorenzo? He didn't do much good shall we say for Eastern. May I suggest that whilst this Ryanair person has done much to build the airline as a business, his 'use em up and spit em out after 5 years' career path for pilots has a finite timespan and any further stupidity would only hasten Ryanair's already major crewing problems. That wouln't be good for business.
----------------------------

boxjockey99, just ask yourself which union has more pilots and has representation at the best paying airlines with the best T's & C's. It should be a no-brainer. There is only one union that has the experience and expertise.

Does it really have to be spelt out any clearer than that? Anything else and you will just be wasting your time, money and effort.

I think we are going round in circles.

It must be decision time, and our decision is............?

Has anyone contacted BALPA to see how many are in fact members?

Also, In my airline one of my collegues publishes an unofficial crewlist with everyones email and phone number. When we tried to establish how many people were union members 1 individual send out an email to all requesting membership status. One way to find out how many you've got/ how many you need. Perhaps a crewlist is a good start. One could even set up an psuedo email if repurcussion is a concern.

Just a thought.

PF

Here's what I'm doing.

I'm sure that BALPA is the right union but:
1. I don't believe we'll get a reasonable membership.
2. Over the years I've resigned twice and on principle I won't rejoin. I don't want to put the dirty laundry on Pprune so, if you want to know why, PM me and include something that indicates that you work for Jet2.

I respect Silverhawk's judgement and I'm going to try the T&G, which will at least give us a voice if not BALPA's expertise and muscle. If there is nobody else there within a month or two, I'll resign my membership and probably leave it at that.

My T&G application will be in the post tonight.

My T&G membership card arrived today.

Let's set a deadline then. Any objections to July 31?

........... and insist on a first official T&G meeting of Jet2 members in early August?

depending on membership levels.

For information the Fixed Rate Expenses Allowance at Jet2 for 2005/6 was £728.
The Balpa negotiated FREA for 2006/7 is £850. Good, but not a massive increase for us.

Silverhawk, I'm not sure I understand.

If BALPA negotiates the FREA figures with the tax people, does that mean we can all use them regardless of membership or employer?

Or is the 2005/6 £728 figure for Jet2 unique? And what do we use for 2006/7?

Thanks.

We can all claim the £850 whether or not you are in Balpa.
Contact your tax office to have your tax code adjusted for 2006/7.

£728 was the figure agreed with Channex/Jet2 and taxman for 2005/6. That was about twice what other airlines were claiming.

Excellent - that little gem of info has paid for tonight's beer.
Thank you Silverhawk

Just spoken to HMRC and changed my code up from £728 to £850 for the FREAs. Tax office says she will contact Boh to adjust everyones codes, but best confirm this individually with your own tax office.

Worth about £340 pa. That's a lot of beer!

Well, I think you deserve a pint or two from each of us - that's a lot of beer too!

Sorry guys, blonde hostie here.... whats the £850.00 thing about? Is it the allowance I can claim for my stockings and make-up at work? I thought I had to apply to the tax office in writing for that?

Jet2Impress

Erm, thank you BALPA I believe.;)

PP

Yes PP, but if in this scenario BALPA are going to take it upon themselves to approach the taxman and effectively represent every pilot in UK, you can hardly complain if we all jump on the bandwagon. After all, if the T&G now approached the taxman on the same matter to get an even better deal, they would be told that it was all done and dusted. Also, having negotiated it on our behalf whether we like it or not, BALPA don't exactly make easy for anyone to find out about it - hence my thanks to Silverhawk.

Jet2Impress, in the nicest way, I think that this is a pilot thing. There must be a figure for cabin crew but I don't know what it is.

It would appear, silverhawk, that you are wrong on the tax relief point. This lifted from the BALPA website:
Tax Relief on Subscriptions

Although many of you will have heard already, I am pleased to be able to formally report that we have now heard from the Inland Revenue that you may obtain tax relief on most of your subscriptions to BALPA; specifically that they have approved BALPA as a relevant body under Section 344 ITEPA 2003. The State now, therefore, recognises BALPA on terms similar to the Royal College of Physicians, the Institute of Engineers and the Law Society. This means that at a conservative estimate, taking into account UK non-residents and assuming relief at 40% for UK taxpayers, this collectively will put just over £1 million immediately back into members’ pockets for last year alone.
Much of the debate has centred on the amount of an individual’s subscription that would qualify for relief. We have now agreed a figure of two thirds (66.7%), the highest figure used by the Revenue if the total subscriptions are not adjudged to be wholly qualifying.
I am also pleased to be able to advise you that the first year of qualification will be in respect of subscriptions paid in the 2003/4-tax year.

Instruction for Tax Return

The amount shown in box 1.34 is 66.7% of my annual subscription to BALPA, as recently agreed with the Inland Revenue. Although this does not yet appear on List 3 confirmation is confirmed by your Personal Tax Policy reference SAP/126/PRW/s344. My annual subscription for the 2003/4 year was £ (X). Please also amend my code number for 2004/5 to reflect my 2004/5 subscriptions which I estimate as £ (Y) and of which I claim relief in the amount of £ (2/3Y) "

Which suggests to me that it is not a blanket agreement with the revenue for any trade union. So I rang my accountant who informs me that it is to the best of her knowledge it is a BALPA specific agreement. I should add that her company is very near the airport and does numerous tax returns for pilots from different companies.

With reference to the fixed rate expense allowance (FREA): This is the amount entered in box 1.33 of the tax return and is the amount agreed between the company and it’s local tax office to cover wear and tear aircrew items, it was £728 on my last tax return. I rang my accountant to check this, and she says FREA is being changed in this tax year, but she didn’t know the details. So I rang BALPA Financial Service and asked them. Apparently FREA cannot be claimed for this tax year, we now have to claim individual expenses. The lady in BFS wasn’t sure of the details, but BFS is to issue a letter to all members in 3 to 4 weeks time detailing the changes and advising what and how we can claim expenses in lieu of FREA.

It would appear your information might be wrong again. Will the T & G write to its members advising how to claim expenses from the revenue?

I’m sorry silverhawk and pilothouse; this T & G thing is half cocked. I don’t want well meaning individuals dishing duff advice to other pilots or negotiating with the company on my behalf and I wont support your efforts or the T & G.

We would do better to get a Jet2 specific forum as silverhawk is attempting to do and use it to organise ourselves and form Company Council. We would need 4 CC members at least. If more than 4 people want to be on the CC, candidates can produce their own manifesto and the other members of the forum can vote for who they want to represent them. MANBLK has conducted a poll of sorts, he could organise the voting. Since the moderator of a company forum knows who PPuners are, it would be easy to make sure only genuine Jet2 members get to vote once. As far as aware, company specific forums are the only forums that members have to prove their identity. Once a CC formed, the CC writes to ID and request a meeting to discuss sector pay, which is after all, why this thread started. Our aim should be £4 per sector for FO’s leaving the Capts unchanged. If ID wont meet us or negotiate, then we start talking unions.

Suspect your accountant is behind the curve. I discussed this today with Inland Revenue, as was. My code already changed to the new agreement. Simply done on tax code, not on a tax return. I'm PAYE.


Pprune admin are undergoing large structural changes. Private forum will take some time.

Pilothouse,

It was tongue in cheek, hence my smilie!;)

How should they do this for non-members? Use some of my membership money to mail shot them, assuming they had the staff and time to find out where they all live?! Or perhaps they could use some of my membership money to pay for an ad in Flight International? Or perhaps they could ask the hard working CC members to get pilot management to issue notices to ALL pilots in the company, oh that wouldn't work in Jet2 though would it! Or perhaps they could just do what we pay them for and inform those of us who are members.....;)

Don't take offence mate, I'm just having a laugh.:ok: Good luck with your T&G exploits, I really do hope you succeed in breaking new ground, even though I don't belive it is your best option.

PP

Pilot pete,

Stop wasting your time mate, Jet2 is full of naive divided crew that will not listen to your sensible advice.:ugh:
Unionisation on the scale of what is required will not happen here, yeah some will join the T&G but before long they will become disillusioned with that also.

In post 199 pilothouse wrote:-
'Jet2Impress, in the nicest way, I think that this is a pilot thing. There must be a figure for cabin crew but I don't know what it is.';)

If this post doesn't prove that BALPA is the only way for the pilot workforce then I don't know what does. We just dont know the requirements of our colleagues and if we choose to find out it will only water down our own negotiations . WE need to look after ourselves in the first instance as a pilot community if we can then go on to assist our other colleagues then we can do so if we wish.
A lot of respondents to this thread have mentioned their distrust in BALPA but as I and others have stated earlier it's all down to the strength and resolve of the crew council that we the pilots elect not BALPA itself. If we did choose BALPA then the crew council that we elect is vital to its success.
Also if we can get representation going for a smaller part of the workforce it will then be easier to expand our quest with the rest of the workforce.

Meeson did it with the company itself, he started the company on a smallish scale at Leeds which then became somewhat of a stronghold as it grew,this then allowed him to expanded outwards cleaning up as he went.
This is what we need to do but with a union. THE RIGHT UNION.:ok:

Maat and Ardacre,

What proportion of Jet2 pilots would you expect to be prepared to join BALPA?