Balpa Or The IPA which is better?
 

:O I'm going to start flying soon, I know that I should really Join a Union, after speaking to so many pilots, I'm not sure which one to Join.
Although I here that Balpa is very poplular, many experienced pilots have advised me to join the IPA, stating that not only is it value for money but they really do help. Any advice would be welcome!

Why do you need to join a union? Prfoessional legal insurance is important, but you can get that independently. I'd say: represent yourself. However these things should be the choice of the individual, although there is a lot of peer pressure exerted in some airlines to join a particular group.

I've worked in several industries where there has been union and non union workforces. I'd never seen the need to be in a union until I worked in my first aviation job. Even then I never joined, but as soon as I started my second job in aviation I made sure that joining the union was one of the first things that I did.

I'm not a table banger but I do think there are certain benefits from being in a union. It doesn't have to be a "hem and us" situation. Indeed one of the airlines I worked for, which was a really good one, the company and the unions worked very closely together and everyone benefited from the close working relationship they had together.

Thanks for your input!

Whoa Speedbird and Roman!

Consider an alternative view. Dissociate the industrial side of things and just think about this. BALPA have access through IFALPA to the best representation in probably every country in the world.

The IPA may have a fabulous policy to protect you, but it is only so much money, and can it add the value that BALPA can provide through it's work on technical committees, finding expert witnesses etc., association with local unions and their own expertise.

Will any insurer look to fund you without keeping one eye on the bill, they are in it to make money after all. They may just go ahead and cut a deal with the prosecution. Their loss-adjusters will want them to. Will it be in your best interests?

In an accident you need the best help immediately. I know of a case where after an accident, the 2 BALPA members involved were interred by the local police, and forced without representation to make statements whilst dazed and confused. BALPA, through IFALPA got the best local aviation lawyer on the case immedaitely. He arrived by exec jet from the capital, and immediately got the 2 pilots released from custody, and had their statements dismissed, and torn up. They both returned to flying shortly afterwards.

The world is fast making litigation an Olympic sport. After an accident, everyone will range themselves against you. Will the insurer get the best lawyer, or will it go for the low-cost option? The manufacturer, the airline, the airport, will all want you blamed. It will be their prime interest. For me, BALPA at a time like that add value to your case through their expertise.

Now all you PPRUNERs out there can get hot and bothered, sound off and tell me what a twit I am, vent your spleens on this thread etc. Take a pop at me by all means, but for me it is simple.

With my 20,000th hour shortly to appear in my logbook whilst I do my level best to ensure that I shall never need BALPA, in the event that I do, I believe they offer the BEST possible back-up. For goodness sakes you even get a tax break on your subs!

If you are comfortable with the IPA, then fine. If you want tried and tested, go for BALPA, I commend them to you!

As already suggested not all unions are officially recognised in all airlines. For UK based airlines Balpa is the one to go for - for the reasons stated above.

No contest. The IPA is not a union and for all it's good work in certain areas has no recognition agreements with any airlines as far as I know. That is the crux of it so in other words they are toothless.

The IPF has some sort of tie up with Ashtrays I believe but this is very much a one off.

If I'm honest I am not over enamoured with Balpa as an organisation, I have served on a couple of CCs, but like BSD I am a member as an insurance policy first. anything else they can get me with Ts & Cs is a bonus.

Sbird 800, my advice, ask yourself what you want the union for and what you get for your money, then come to a decision.

There is no question about it. It has to be BALPA.

Roman

In any reputable company that has recognised BALPA under a collective bargaining agreement, an individual will not be able to effectively represent themselves. In an ideal world we would not need unions, Policemen or insurance! But we don't live in an ideal world. The only pilot groups in the UK that have decent working conditions and salaries are the ones that have BALPA representation.

Don't freeload of your colleagues union fees, join today :

http://www.balpa.org/

As I understand it the IPA's legal scheme will cost you £250 excess + 15% of the costs up to a £10k limit. Even if you take out the extra cover or whatever they call it you are still liable to the excess etc on the first 10K.

Until retirement I was with www.alpl.com never had to use it but it was a reassurance.

Unfortunately, the IPF has the opposite effect to their no doubt good intentions.

If you find yourself needing to force through union recognition by your company by having over 50% as members, but where a proportion of that (eg) 51% who are union members are actually members of IPF, then all the management will say is "oh - well you don't have 51% membership of BALPA so I'm not talking to anyone"

If it werent for IPF, my company would be BALPA recognised. As it is, we have effectively nothing, and very poor terms and contract abuses.

http://www.ipapilot.com/
It Tells you all
check out Legal Expenses Insurance
http://www.ipapilot.com/MEMBER/leagalexpens.asp
Airline Fact Files
http://www.ipapilot.com/ffedit/selectfftoveiw.asp
Member fees
http://www.ipapilot.com/Public/p_joinhere.asp

May I say what civilised replies to this thread. I love it when people disagree with me and do it with good grace like this. Thanks BSD. It makes posting on Pprune so much more worthwhile when we can all avoid the bile which so ofen puts me off writing anything here.
For what it's worth I have long thought that if we could get rid of the seniority system for employment and promotion worldwide ,we would all be much happier and probably well off, and unions would become rather less relevant. Also, I've always wanted to know: how much do Balpa and the IPF pay the TUC, and how much of that goes to Labour party funding?
And BSD, I too would hate to be interred by the local police. Sounds a bit harsh (first offence, anyway).....

Quote:-

"Also, I've always wanted to know: how much do Balpa and the IPF pay the TUC, and how much of that goes to Labour party funding?"

Roman, really !! Don't know about the IPA/IPF but not a single penny of BALPA members' money goes to the Labour Party. BALPA only pays the basic membership fee of the TUC which gets access to things like training courses for BALPA reps. BALPA has never paid the supplementary 'Political levy' which is what gets passed on to your darling Tony and his cronies.

The point about local assistance when involved in an incident/accident when in 'the foreign' is absolutely crucial. The IFALPA Mutual Assistance programme only available to BALPA members is just fantastic. Believe me, I have tried it !! Don't leave home without it !

LJ

i wanted to join balpa, but because my employer was not a uk company (fraction call-sign) balpa told me i could only be an associate member and therefore would not be entitled to their legal representation.

so, i joined ipf/a so i could at least have some kind of legal representation should i ever need it.

ignore the legal protection for just one moment
 

The point is though that if you work in the UK for a BALPA airline, or at least an airline which if it ever became an collectively represented company it would be a BALPA airline, you are selling yourself and your colleagues down the river if you don't join.

It's no coincidence that the airlines in the UK with the best overall terms and conditions are BA, Britannia and Virgin. I am told that these airlines have the most cohesive, unionised workforce in the UK.

IPA isn't a union. It's a group of disgruntled ex-Air Europe pilots and various others who've bought into the Thatcherite utopia. I'm as right-wing as the next bloke, but I'm proud to be a trades unionist if that means I'm a BALPA member.

BALPA can't hold back the tide, but at least it can divert the flow in our favour if we've got the backbone to back it up.

In addition BALPA have an excellent Loss of Licence policy. Searched high and low for one and BALPA's was the best available of the few that were around. BALPA also have Balpa Financial Services which a group of good Independant Financial Advisers to advise on investments, mortgages etc etc All free of charge.

A lot of people just see BALPA as something to be used to better T&C's and their 1% as being expensive but if you use the "add ons" it's quite good. It's not a panacea and there is definite room for improvement but they do ok and I'm happy with them.

Was a member of the IPA for a good number of years and I have to say that they try hard, very hard. But they just don't cut it as a replacement for BALPA. As others have said they don't have the backup or the wide range of experts on offer.

Having been involved in an "incident" in a previous company it was nice to know that I had BALPA legal help to call on. Fortunately it was not needed.

Choose wisely :ok:

I have worked for a few airlines and looked a good many that are operating. The ones that have had the best conditions are the ones that have a strong union affiliation. If you join a small airline then you may as well represent yourself, but you will be at the besk and call of the company, because that is what small airlines/company's are like. If you end up at one of the major/larger airlines, at a guess one with 200 or more flight crew 20+ aircraft/ international routes then you need a union like you need oxygen. There is no point in trying to represent yourself you might as well try adn push butter up a porcupines rear end with a hot needle.

In short if the company you join has union representation, balpa, IPA, or whatever join it.

Roman, I admire your confidence (which also comes out in your reference to seniority - clearly you feel you would need no such protection). This suggests that you have not yet met the worst that the aviation industry might throw at you. The main reason for unions is that individuals can be played one against the other for the purposes of reducing the T&Cs of everybody.

One of the few jobs in which we repeatedly see strongly non-union types become union joining and tolerating types is aviation. We may be naturally right of centre in our political disposition but there is nothing quite like being systematically ripped off by a malevolent employer to encourage a pragmatic embracing of an effective union. Union = joining together (for mutual benefit and protection).

If it is anciliarly benefits you want at the moment, it may be IPA for you. If it is protection & anciliary benefits it may be BALPA.

The problem is that in reality it doesn't matter what you personally feel you want. If you are in a large airline like easyJet or BA, who both recognise Balpa then in order to vote or have a say, you should be a member or risk having no voice and no backup when things go wrong. If you are in the IPA, then you are out on a limb and will not get consulted on industrial issues which may affect you greatly. More and more employers are trying to get more from their pilots for less, have a look at these pages to see how many airlines are close to having a strike. Balpa has a lot of rescources which can be thrown your way, especially if you have a problem in Europe or elsewhere around the world, something the IPA cannot do.

I've worked in Aviation for 9 years. 8 of those years I have come into contact with pilots on a Daily basis. When Sitting in crew rooms talking to pilots, a large number of them have told me that they are members of Balpa but at the same time they have exactly said that they are happy. They have implied that if there was an alternative they would opt for that.

This is the reason why I asked my original question. I wanted make sure that it wasn't just the particular airline that I work for or if it is an industry wide issue.

Uk based airline?

BALPA- no contest. Why?

I won't repeat what has been said so well above.

I've spent the last week. speaking to people in the industry and talking to members in both camps. I've decided to opt for the IPA/IPF. Although I've taken onboard what the members of Balpa have said in here, when speaking members of Balpa who were not activists just members of balpa, they have told me that if the IPA/IPF had recognition in their particular airline they would rather be members of the IPA/IPF.

I've also been on the IPA/IPF website and it seems that a lot of the things Balpa members have said on this thread have been incorrect about the IPA/IPF.

When I phone the IPA/IPF and requested information to be sent to me in the post, it turned up the next day. When I phoned Balpa and asked for information to be sent to me I had to wait 2 weeks and nothing turned up 4 telephone calls later, and I'm still waiting!

After the IPA/IPF had sent the information through to me they followed it up with a telephone call and answered all the questions that I had.

I'm sure Balpa offer a great service, but the IPA/IPF proved to me that I wasn't just a revenue stream!

Thanks for all your advice.:D

IPA ok for now, pointless later on.
 

To be honest if you're just starting your initial training, it doesn't matter which you join, because the only useful thing either will provide is an overview of the employment situation. I was a member of the IPA and I found it quite good at this stage in my career, perhaps more so than BALPA. And it's true that the IPA gives one the personal touch.

Once you've qualified and got that much sort after job, things change. Now the name of the game is to protect and hopefully enhance your working conditions, pay and benefits. Assuming the airline in question has collective representation agreement with their pilots, and all the ones worth working for do, being a member of the right union becomes very important because your reps can only have a strong negotiating through strength of numbers and a general resolve amongst members to achieve their aims. You will be doing yourself and your colleagues a disservice if choose to a union other that that with the collective representation agreement. Save one airline, IPA/IPF doesn't have any of these and I can't honestly see it displace BALPA from any other airline.

problem is it ain't ever going to happen for the reasons I described. You will indeed be doing your colleagues a disservice if you are not a member of BALPA when you join an airline of any significance, (with the exception of Astraeus). Seeing as BALPA is free while you train, why not join both? Otherwise, it just unnecessarily splits the collective efforts of the pilot force.

I really wish BALPA would learn from IPAs customer service though. I too have found them dreadful at replying to correspondance or messages.

Hello there Speedbird,

I'm most impressed with the debate you've stimulated on this topic. I think all the replies have been well written, mature, and carefully considered. Exactly, IMHO the sort of thing that makes this website worthwhile.

I'm saddened to hear that it took BALPA so long to respond to your enquiry. In my career, I have found them to be frustrating at times, I even left them once. I do admit though that the career I've enjoyed thus far with a good airline has been good largely because of BALPA. The support of BALPA by our pilots has been crucial in establishing and maintaining a decent working life.

I commended BALPA to you largely for the legal representation it could ultimately provide if you suffer a really bad day. For me that underpins membership. I still believe it to be the best.

I'm sure you have sought the best in your training, aspire to be the best you can be, and want ultimately to work in the best possible environment. You certainly won't want to end up in some frightful sweat shop company, with poor standards, poor conditions, and poor working relations.
For me, anything less than BALPA is second best.

I think that you had made your mind up before your original post. Your comment that BALPA took 2 weeks to reply after all predates your original post of 11 days ago. I'm sorry then, that I and all the others posting in favour of BALPA have not carried this debate in your case. No matter, I shall be gracious in defeat and wish you well.

Good luck to you, and remember - you can always change your mind!

It is fair to say that BALPA is what you make it. It is a "Company" based organisation with National coverage. Your subs are to pay for the skills and facilities that we lack as pilots (or don't have time to excercise) which are provided by paid union representatives and third parties. Maybe those that moan are not contributing enough (effort) and/or have unrealistic expectations. Personally speaking, BALPA has been superb value for money.

In my present company BALPA does a good job and it shows. In my last company the IPA/IPF did bugger all.

We have to support each other
 

Joining the IPA/IPF, for me was the right thing to do. I don't take away anything that the balpa members have said in here. I know from my experience of being a union rep over the years that it is also down the reps to make the membership experience a good one for all there members.

I hear and understand what the balpa members have said but at the same time I've also spoken pilots who are not in balpa or pilots who have recently joined balpa due to inpending possible strike action being taken in their airline. When asked why they joined they said it was just due to the fact that they might have to go on strike.

Please don't take my last comment out of context. I'm sure that if worked for a airline that had a union recognition and they were about to go out on strike then I would also join for my protection.

Its just that i've also read what a the balpa members have written in here and some of them have not got all the facts right.

Please below

"All ‘Full IPA/IPF’ members are provided with Legal Expenses cover under the group Basic Legal Scheme, that provides up to £10,000 of cover for incidents relating to their employment with a UK operator (there is an excess payable by the member in the event of a claim).

Such incidents that may be covered are representation of the member at hearings into aircraft accidents or incidents anywhere in the world, or pursuit/defence of any claim or legal proceedings arising out of the member’s employment against a UK based employer and pursuit of a claim against any third party for injury to the member happening within the UK.

This is a useful benefit of membership for ‘Full IPA/IPF’ members that is funded by the IPA but provided by MJ Mac & Co general insurance brokers, administered by Abbey Legal Protection and underwritten by Brit Insurance Ltd. There is, therefore, no element of discretion on the part of the Association as to which cases will be supported.

It is recognised, however, that £10,000 of cover will run out very quickly in the event of even a small claim so the Association recommends that additional cover is purchased by the member through the Supplementary Scheme for which concessionary rates are available for IPA members.

There is a range of options available depending upon the Limit of Indemnity and Territorial Limits required, as shown below:

TerritorialLimits Limit of Indemnity Annual Premium (including IPT)
Worldwide excl. USA £125,000 £89.25
Worldwide excl. USA £250,000 £137.55
Worldwide incl. USA £125,000 £147.00

In all cases, should a claim be made the Basic Scheme is used to fund the excess payable under the Supplementary Scheme so there is no further cost to the insured member.

A further benefit of the Supplementary Scheme is a free legal advice telephone line that provides confidential and impartial advice on General Legal matters, Employment matters and Aviation Legal matters."

One of the previous post got the level of cover wrong.

I've always thought that it is important to remember where you have come from and what you have achieved, at the same time you must always support others who have the desire to strive to reach their goals to and this is one of the reasons that I've decided to Join the IPA. They help people get there first flying jobs and that is something that none of us should ever forget or even turn our backs on.

Be a member of both unions if you have to. look upon it as giving something back to the organisation that helped you when you were a lot younger than you are now.:)

BALPA legal protection / tits on a bull.
 

Dear All


I know of a former airline captain, who after being treated appallingly by a company who he had worked for over six years, asked BALPA for help.

It was a legal matter, and he had several witnessess who would testify with reference to his poor treatment. This extended to foul abuse from the Operations Director, shouted in the airline HQ main office!!!

The response from BALPA?

"We do not have the money to let you have access to legal assistance".
:oh: :oh: :oh:

The said Captain then had to go to a private solicitor, who successfully took action against the company. I believe the Captain resigned from BALPA shortly after.

I am NOT saying BALPA treat all members in this manner, but this is not a very good example of how fully paid-up members are treated.

Me thinks from a legal protection view point, private cover is best. If you want legal help, you should get it - it should not be decided by a bean-counter, or people who are 'not interested'.

I also suspect the IPA are pretty good, as has been stated above.

Am also considering joining a union. Just to open up the debate a little further, I understand the T&G offer full legal cover with no cost limits or excess payments. Obviously they are not aviation experts however at £9.00 / month it is remarkable value if you want to get sound legal cover (about 1/10th Balpa charge). Other pros or cons please.......

guys, some of you are missing this substantive point here
 

You join a union to support and have a say in any collective representation agreement that you may have in your company.

If your company doesn't have a collective representation agreement, if you want one, join the union most likely to get enough support to join to force your company to recognise them, therefore it's actually counter productive to join union that is only a fringe player in our profession.

To any of you who are unsure about what I'm saying, just think of the airlines with the best overall terms & conditions in the UK. All of these are strong BALPA airlines and none of managements provide the best pay, benefits & lifestyle out of the goodness in their souls, they do it because they are faced with a strong, cohesive pilot workforce.

...and if the company has none and is unlikely to ever have any? - why should I pay over the odds for BALPA or IPA? It is clear from the easyJet thread that they have been paying BALPA a great deal of money and only after more than 3 years of constant battle are they even close to getting anywhere in 'collective representation'. They can hardly boast the best T & Cs in the industry as a result of their BALPA recognition and support. (not meant to be a BALPA bashing comment)
Any other advantages to BALPA or IPA over T&G?

For flight deck Value for money is the IPA
 

Value for money is the IPA. If we give them a chance it makes sense. Why pay over the odds for union subscriptions.

A bad union rep is worst than not having one at all. I'm not saying that any particular union is bad but you have to remember that we are all people and the union that wants to work in partnership with its members and the company is the one that will always win my vote.

If we all stick our head in the sand it will get us no where. With out a company there can be no union. I was told that by a cabin union rep a few years ago. He stated that we must strive to work in partnership with the company to get the best results for our members whilst at the same time giving some consideration to what the company needs to grow. After all if the company doesn't grow then neither can the members pay packets and terms and conditions.

It doesn't take rocket science to negociate with the management, but the longer it takes the more the high levels of subscriptions are justified. Why pay 1% of your salary when you can pay £11 a month for a really good deal. If you have to pay more to get a better deal then you must really ask yourself have you really got such a good deal in the first place if you have to pay extra for it. "Take care of the pennies and let the pounds take care of themselves" If you are a member of the IPA then continue to support them. after all they have continued to support you. If you have a union that spends more time huffing and puffing than getting a good result for its members then you are wasting your money.

£11 per month with the IPA gets expert advice for the flight deck. I'm sure the T&G don't have the expertise that the IPA do when it comes to representing flight deck.

You can scream Balpa from the roof tops. But at the same time a union is only as good as its representitives and its members, it doesn't matter how much you spend on Subscriptions. If you don't believe me ask the guys at easyjet! How much have they paid balpa over the last 3 years. How long have they been waiting for a decent pay rise. What happened to their loyalty bonus. They had it a few years ago. Where is it now?

Reducing it to the bare bones, the level of your terms and conditions are down to supply and demand, (which you cant do much about), and your ability to withdraw your services and go out on strike. This is only ever going to be possible with BALPA recognition; No other union is ever going to get the momentum amongst pilots to get membership levels sufficiently high, and no airline management is going to pay any more than lip-service to pilots demands unless they are filled with the fear of total operational collapse through a strike. Fine, save yourself your 1%, but you had better satisfy yourself with a salary a good 20%+ lower than the your contemporaries at a BALPA airline - A false economy, me thinks.

From reading the easyjet threads, I am worried that BALPA are still reluctant to rattle their sabre, even when membership levels are pushed above 50%; I think BALPAs worth will be demonstrated by their results at easy.

IPA are excellent at industry level lobbying, and for that I would recommend their membership, but I think it is a shame they set up the IPF. However, no airline pilot should be without BALPA membership, IMHO.

In the not inconceivable scenario of bmi collapsing, being taken over by BA for it's slots, and the majority of the pilots being summarily dismissed, the sacked Midland pilots would have ample opportunity to evaluate just how much their hefty BALPA subscriptions over the years have benefitted them, as BALPA will ALWAYS totally support BA in whatever it decides to do, to the detriment of ALL others. Anyone who thinks otherwise is dreaming. BALPA will also fight BA pilots' corner effectively, with other individuals their record is patchy to say the least.

After BALPA abandoned them to their fate during the BA takeover, the sacked DANAIR pilots, of whom some 170 out of 300 formed their own action group to try to get some justice out of BA's illegal activities, would have greatly improved chances of restitution had the IPA/IPF been then the strength it is today. The DANAIR case was immeasurably stronger than the Cathay 49'ers but had only their own limited [unemployed] resources to fall back on. DANAIR had 90%+ of it's pilots in BALPA , and some had over 30 years membership in the worthless outfit. How much insurance would their total subscriptions have bought in the open market?

In this life people say 'you get what you pay for'. Not with BALPA you don't, [unless you actively enjoy subsidising mainline BA pilots' squabbles!] At least with the IPA/IPF the playing field is level, so my choice is automatic.

XRBA thank you. That is pretty much what I believe as well.

Anyone wish to support Balpa in view of such factual and damning criticism?

Oh dear XRBA,

I don't think this Dan Air issue will ever go away for you guys. Was BALPA at fault then? I don't know because I was not close to it, but I know a man who was. I will try to get his view. However, whatever the situation was in BALPA at that time, virtually everything has changed. New General Secretary, new Chairman and new constitution of the NEC which no longer has a built in majority for BA members.

Would the same thing happen again? I don't think so. The disaffected DA pilots all ran off to form the IPA. Tell me how that has helped them?

Much as I sympathise with your cause (and I do) for your own peace of mind, I urge you to try to move on. Just sitting at home slagging off BALPA at every opportunity is not healthy. Joining BALPA and ensuring that this never happens again would be more constructive. Tents and pi*sing are the two words that come to mind.

BC

Since entering commercial aviation 10 years ago from a military background, I have come across a significant number of pilots who loathe BALPA with undying hatred - all entirely due to their experiences at Dan Air. These people have been extremely successful in robbing BALPA of its reputation and credibility among would-be members with tales of incompetence, indifference and corruption. There is no doubt that BALPA now deeply regret all that happened at with Dan Air and their part in the subsequent debacle. It was a true low point in the history of the trade union movement within aviation and did enormous damage to BALPA's reputation in particular. Nonetheless, like all situations where wrong occured in the past we have a choice. We can hold onto and nurse our deepest prejudices or we can let go and look to the future. As a Scotsman, for example, I am constantly dismayed to hear of my fellow countrymen still going on about the horror of Culloden (1745) or the Irish reliving the injustices of the Potato Famine (1869). We have a choice - my choice is to move on.

I also choose to believe that despite the undoubted failings of BALPA over Dan Air, they are an excellent organisation who right now offer the only credible counter to unscrupulous management. I personally know and respect a number of member of the IPA/IPF, but as an organisation they really only represent individuals and at present have no ability to represent a company's pilots en-masse. If you have an ongoing dispute with your company as a body of pilots then the only place to turn is BALPA. The IPA/IPF, through no fault of their own, have little real experience at dealing with the high pressure situatons that can arise during the cut and thrust of mass company negotiations where both members and management are at your throat. BALPA have years of experience of dealing with this and I am increasingly grateful for their steady hand in times of crisis.

I beg to differ
 

Lets put the Dan Air issue to one side for a moment. Lets talk about the cost of Joining Balpa to the cost of Joining the IPA/IPF. Why do pilots need to pay one percent of their Salary for Membership?

I can't think of any reason why the pilots need to pay 1% With regards to the IPA/IPF it is only £11.00 per month if you want to pay extra you can to top up your benefits.

This was not started as a war between Balpa and the IPA/IPF. It's about Value for money. In the industry that we all work in over the last 10 years in Europe prices in this industry have be driven down. So why are Balpa still Charging 1% of your Salary.

Lets put it in another prospective. Some of you have been paying into your pensions for the last 10-20 years. How much is your pension worth now. Surely you should be saving as much money as possible. Surely being a member of the union is to look after you in every way including keeping the amount of money you pay in subs. 1% is far to much. Some of that money should be kept in your own bank accounts. Surely 1% means that you are paying way over the odds. If you were getting great pay deals year on year and great rostering agreements year on year, then I would say at least you can justify it. However your not. What you getting is a frenzy of people saying if it happens..... . Lets face it, if it does happen, all the membership of Balpa have paid well over the top. Unions Like, Cabin Crew 89, Amicus, Transport and General workers and unison, don't charge this much and in certain cases they have taken on legal issues that cost millions. Amicus have won over £54,000,000 in previous years in compo claims and legal claims for its members. All for £9.20 a month. So come balpa members you tell me What have you really got for your 1%. Has your pension got better. Has easyjet got a loyalty bonus? No they haven't. Before Balpa got involved they had one. When Balpa got involved they lost it!

In the worlds of the old A'level exams which I hated at the end of every question.....

Discus!

speedbird 800,

Throw your discus away. BALPA is a member of IFALPA. IFALPA recommends its member associations to charge a minimum of 1% of salary as a subscription. Something like 100 pilot associations around the world do just that. Some charge even more. From your trail of posts,you are clearly anti BALPA. Fair enough, but just remember the old adage of you get what you pay for. You don't pay very much for the IPA/IPF so don't expect very much. Your post throws so many random issues together and blames all the ills on BALPA. Clearly an organisation with approximately 8500 members has to charge more per member than one like Amicus with several million. That does not make one organisation bad or the other good. Don't forget either, that if you have an accident just about anywhere in the world, a local IFALPA affiliated pilot association will rapidly come to your aid speaking the local lingo and knowing the local laws. Believe me, I've tried it! I don't think that Amicus will offer you that service, and I'm damn sure the IPA/IPF won't.

The choice is yours.

BC

PS With the (newish) tax relief on 66.6% of your BALPA subscription and a new increased national fixed rate expense allowance on the way, the 1% subscription will effectively reduce to zero. So what price Amicus or the IPA?

Once again I beg to differ
 

I'm not Anti Balpa at all. I'm Anti 1%. It's true many people don't know the local customs of different countries and the Local Laws. Even with IFALPA 1% is a lot of money to pay.

With the IPA/IPF, you can still be represented however they will arrange for a local Lawyer in that territory to represent you. Please don't tell me that I'm anti Balpa, I'm not. I repeat I just don't think any union in the world should be charging its members 1% of there annual salary.

Put another way. You go to the company and ask for a 5% pay rise for your members. The company say we can only give you 4%. Thats our finall offer. You guys meet the company on several different times and can't get the company to move on the 1% difference. Whats the problem?

So you have the members Ballot for industrial action.

"Well we need 4% for the members and we need the extra 1% for our subs!"

Not a nice way to look at it. Or may be I just have a dark sense of Humor.

Drope the 1% and make it a more sensible price. Why don't you have a look at what nuclear power station workers pay their union!:ok:

Discuss