Balpa Or The IPA which is better?

[speedbird800]

I'm going to start flying soon, I know that I should really Join a Union, after speaking to so many pilots, I'm not sure which one to Join.
Although I here that Balpa is very poplular, many experienced pilots have advised me to join the IPA, stating that not only is it value for money but they really do help. Any advice would be welcome!

[Roman]

Why do you need to join a union? Prfoessional legal insurance is important, but you can get that independently. I'd say: represent yourself. However these things should be the choice of the individual, although there is a lot of peer pressure exerted in some airlines to join a particular group.

[speedbird800]

I've worked in several industries where there has been union and non union workforces. I'd never seen the need to be in a union until I worked in my first aviation job. Even then I never joined, but as soon as I started my second job in aviation I made sure that joining the union was one of the first things that I did.

I'm not a table banger but I do think there are certain benefits from being in a union. It doesn't have to be a "hem and us" situation. Indeed one of the airlines I worked for, which was a really good one, the company and the unions worked very closely together and everyone benefited from the close working relationship they had together.

Thanks for your input!

[BSD]

Whoa Speedbird and Roman!

Consider an alternative view. Dissociate the industrial side of things and just think about this. BALPA have access through IFALPA to the best representation in probably every country in the world.

The IPA may have a fabulous policy to protect you, but it is only so much money, and can it add the value that BALPA can provide through it's work on technical committees, finding expert witnesses etc., association with local unions and their own expertise.

Will any insurer look to fund you without keeping one eye on the bill, they are in it to make money after all. They may just go ahead and cut a deal with the prosecution. Their loss-adjusters will want them to. Will it be in your best interests?

In an accident you need the best help immediately. I know of a case where after an accident, the 2 BALPA members involved were interred by the local police, and forced without representation to make statements whilst dazed and confused. BALPA, through IFALPA got the best local aviation lawyer on the case immedaitely. He arrived by exec jet from the capital, and immediately got the 2 pilots released from custody, and had their statements dismissed, and torn up. They both returned to flying shortly afterwards.

The world is fast making litigation an Olympic sport. After an accident, everyone will range themselves against you. Will the insurer get the best lawyer, or will it go for the low-cost option? The manufacturer, the airline, the airport, will all want you blamed. It will be their prime interest. For me, BALPA at a time like that add value to your case through their expertise.

Now all you PPRUNERs out there can get hot and bothered, sound off and tell me what a twit I am, vent your spleens on this thread etc. Take a pop at me by all means, but for me it is simple.

With my 20,000th hour shortly to appear in my logbook whilst I do my level best to ensure that I shall never need BALPA, in the event that I do, I believe they offer the BEST possible back-up. For goodness sakes you even get a tax break on your subs!

If you are comfortable with the IPA, then fine. If you want tried and tested, go for BALPA, I commend them to you!

[Man Flex]

As already suggested not all unions are officially recognised in all airlines. For UK based airlines Balpa is the one to go for - for the reasons stated above.

[Angus Meecoat]

No contest. The IPA is not a union and for all it's good work in certain areas has no recognition agreements with any airlines as far as I know. That is the crux of it so in other words they are toothless.

The IPF has some sort of tie up with Ashtrays I believe but this is very much a one off.

If I'm honest I am not over enamoured with Balpa as an organisation, I have served on a couple of CCs, but like BSD I am a member as an insurance policy first. anything else they can get me with Ts & Cs is a bonus.

Sbird 800, my advice, ask yourself what you want the union for and what you get for your money, then come to a decision.

[diplomat]

There is no question about it. It has to be BALPA.

Roman

In any reputable company that has recognised BALPA under a collective bargaining agreement, an individual will not be able to effectively represent themselves. In an ideal world we would not need unions, Policemen or insurance! But we don't live in an ideal world. The only pilot groups in the UK that have decent working conditions and salaries are the ones that have BALPA representation.

Don't freeload of your colleagues union fees, join today :

http://www.balpa.org/

[harpic]

As I understand it the IPA's legal scheme will cost you £250 excess + 15% of the costs up to a £10k limit. Even if you take out the extra cover or whatever they call it you are still liable to the excess etc on the first 10K.

Until retirement I was with www.alpl.com never had to use it but it was a reassurance.

[Joe le Taxi]

Unfortunately, the IPF has the opposite effect to their no doubt good intentions.

If you find yourself needing to force through union recognition by your company by having over 50% as members, but where a proportion of that (eg) 51% who are union members are actually members of IPF, then all the management will say is "oh - well you don't have 51% membership of BALPA so I'm not talking to anyone"

If it werent for IPF, my company would be BALPA recognised. As it is, we have effectively nothing, and very poor terms and contract abuses.

[Twodonks]

http://www.ipapilot.com/
It Tells you all
check out Legal Expenses Insurance
http://www.ipapilot.com/MEMBER/leagalexpens.asp
Airline Fact Files
http://www.ipapilot.com/ffedit/selectfftoveiw.asp
Member fees
http://www.ipapilot.com/Public/p_joinhere.asp

[Roman]

May I say what civilised replies to this thread. I love it when people disagree with me and do it with good grace like this. Thanks BSD. It makes posting on Pprune so much more worthwhile when we can all avoid the bile which so ofen puts me off writing anything here.
For what it's worth I have long thought that if we could get rid of the seniority system for employment and promotion worldwide ,we would all be much happier and probably well off, and unions would become rather less relevant. Also, I've always wanted to know: how much do Balpa and the IPF pay the TUC, and how much of that goes to Labour party funding?
And BSD, I too would hate to be interred by the local police. Sounds a bit harsh (first offence, anyway).....

[LJ.543]

Quote:-

"Also, I've always wanted to know: how much do Balpa and the IPF pay the TUC, and how much of that goes to Labour party funding?"

Roman, really !! Don't know about the IPA/IPF but not a single penny of BALPA members' money goes to the Labour Party. BALPA only pays the basic membership fee of the TUC which gets access to things like training courses for BALPA reps. BALPA has never paid the supplementary 'Political levy' which is what gets passed on to your darling Tony and his cronies.

The point about local assistance when involved in an incident/accident when in 'the foreign' is absolutely crucial. The IFALPA Mutual Assistance programme only available to BALPA members is just fantastic. Believe me, I have tried it !! Don't leave home without it !

LJ

[south coast]

i wanted to join balpa, but because my employer was not a uk company (fraction call-sign) balpa told me i could only be an associate member and therefore would not be entitled to their legal representation.

so, i joined ipf/a so i could at least have some kind of legal representation should i ever need it.

[notdavegorman]

ignore the legal protection for just one moment

The point is though that if you work in the UK for a BALPA airline, or at least an airline which if it ever became an collectively represented company it would be a BALPA airline, you are selling yourself and your colleagues down the river if you don't join.

It's no coincidence that the airlines in the UK with the best overall terms and conditions are BA, Britannia and Virgin. I am told that these airlines have the most cohesive, unionised workforce in the UK.

IPA isn't a union. It's a group of disgruntled ex-Air Europe pilots and various others who've bought into the Thatcherite utopia. I'm as right-wing as the next bloke, but I'm proud to be a trades unionist if that means I'm a BALPA member.

BALPA can't hold back the tide, but at least it can divert the flow in our favour if we've got the backbone to back it up.

[Rick Binson]

In addition BALPA have an excellent Loss of Licence policy. Searched high and low for one and BALPA's was the best available of the few that were around. BALPA also have Balpa Financial Services which a group of good Independant Financial Advisers to advise on investments, mortgages etc etc All free of charge.

A lot of people just see BALPA as something to be used to better T&C's and their 1% as being expensive but if you use the "add ons" it's quite good. It's not a panacea and there is definite room for improvement but they do ok and I'm happy with them.

Was a member of the IPA for a good number of years and I have to say that they try hard, very hard. But they just don't cut it as a replacement for BALPA. As others have said they don't have the backup or the wide range of experts on offer.

Having been involved in an "incident" in a previous company it was nice to know that I had BALPA legal help to call on. Fortunately it was not needed.

Choose wisely

[Best foot forward]

I have worked for a few airlines and looked a good many that are operating. The ones that have had the best conditions are the ones that have a strong union affiliation. If you join a small airline then you may as well represent yourself, but you will be at the besk and call of the company, because that is what small airlines/company's are like. If you end up at one of the major/larger airlines, at a guess one with 200 or more flight crew 20+ aircraft/ international routes then you need a union like you need oxygen. There is no point in trying to represent yourself you might as well try adn push butter up a porcupines rear end with a hot needle.

In short if the company you join has union representation, balpa, IPA, or whatever join it.

[GGV]

Why do you need to join a union? .... I'd say: represent yourself.

Roman, I admire your confidence (which also comes out in your reference to seniority - clearly you feel you would need no such protection). This suggests that you have not yet met the worst that the aviation industry might throw at you. The main reason for unions is that individuals can be played one against the other for the purposes of reducing the T&Cs of everybody.

One of the few jobs in which we repeatedly see strongly non-union types become union joining and tolerating types is aviation. We may be naturally right of centre in our political disposition but there is nothing quite like being systematically ripped off by a malevolent employer to encourage a pragmatic embracing of an effective union. Union = joining together (for mutual benefit and protection).

If it is anciliarly benefits you want at the moment, it may be IPA for you. If it is protection & anciliary benefits it may be BALPA.

[Colonel Klink]

The problem is that in reality it doesn't matter what you personally feel you want. If you are in a large airline like easyJet or BA, who both recognise Balpa then in order to vote or have a say, you should be a member or risk having no voice and no backup when things go wrong. If you are in the IPA, then you are out on a limb and will not get consulted on industrial issues which may affect you greatly. More and more employers are trying to get more from their pilots for less, have a look at these pages to see how many airlines are close to having a strike. Balpa has a lot of rescources which can be thrown your way, especially if you have a problem in Europe or elsewhere around the world, something the IPA cannot do.

[speedbird800]

I've worked in Aviation for 9 years. 8 of those years I have come into contact with pilots on a Daily basis. When Sitting in crew rooms talking to pilots, a large number of them have told me that they are members of Balpa but at the same time they have exactly said that they are happy. They have implied that if there was an alternative they would opt for that.

This is the reason why I asked my original question. I wanted make sure that it wasn't just the particular airline that I work for or if it is an industry wide issue.

[behind_the_second_midland]

Uk based airline?

BALPA- no contest. Why?

I won't repeat what has been said so well above.