Pilot shortage hits BA.
 

Seems like LCG and the Prince of Darkness are having a bit of a panic, as BA cancel flights due to a shortage of pilots. Sadly, BA pilots have had enough of their professionalism being taken for granted, whilst other employee groups are rewarded for walking off the job, etc...

The failure of Flight Ops management to address any of the BA pilot's concerns, coupled with recent unrealistic schedules, appears to have resulted in a withdrawal of goodwill, eg. not answering phones on days off.

Interesting times ahead I suspect.

I heard they will be requiring 4/500 pilots over the next few years,.......... just a rumour though,..........

FP

BA Pilots are gettng very switched on at avoiding forced draft, which is being used way beyond the agreement. This is pissing BA off no end.

BA are using a variety of methods to catch pilots in the force draft net. These include:

1. Calling you from ops staff personal mobiles.
2. FCDMs Acars-ing a/c and asking you to call them ASAP.
3. Dispatchers asking you to call Ops / FCDM urgently.

It appears from the BALPA forum (which I can see occasionally) that BA think the pilots are working to rule. This is due to the above avoidance of FD and a new 'Laminated Card' that spells out the industrial limits (as opposed to CAA limits). The card has been widely distributed and left in flight decks and ops areas. Pilots are learning that they can get off the a/c at the end of their industrially agreed limit, and very few are working to the CAA limits anymore.

BALPA say they have not organised a work to rule, but the pilots are getting more switched on all the time. Apparently the latest craze is for a 'Pay as you Go' mobile that only BA have the number for. Hence you know if it's them ringing.

I dont think that the dir of flt ops (LCG?) has made the pilots happy by calling them 'unprofessional'. Seems to have pissed a few guys off. Fair Cop.

Nice to see the pilots/BALPA taking a leaf out of the CC/BASSA's book. Maybe they'll start getting the same kind of respect/remuneration that the CC get.

Guys

I'm sure our methods of avoiding forced draft (of course everyone outside BA knoes what that is) are very interesting to other airline's employees, but do we have to air our internal tactics on an internet forum?

Lets remember it is NOT a requirement to always answer your home/mobile telephone, but it is a requirement to come in when BA force draft you. (Apart from SW's opinion on the -400 fleet that pilots can refuse draft if it means they will approach 900 hrs later in the year)

For someone who doesn't work for BA what is Forced draft?

Someone from a bidline fleet can give you a better definition I expect, but as I understand it the company can require you to work on a day off, the only barrier being that they have to contact you.

Hence, having a 'work only' phone line or mobile allows you to answer your 'normal' phone for social reasons without worrying that it is work demanding you turn up on an originally rostered day off.

CPB

A day off or multiple days off. Its not uncommon to force draft people for three days trips on short haul. Obviously long haul trips are all multi-day. I'm just keeping my phone switched off these days!

Draft is overtime. Someone phones you up and asks if you want to work extra day/s for extra cash.

Forced draft is overtime but with no element of choice. Meant to be used only in exceptional circumstances. BA calls pilot, says you're working tomorrow for x days, no choice at all. You are obliged to do the work, irrespective of any arrangements you have made.

Airbus and 777 particularly vulnerable. Obviously if BA can't get hold of you, they can't force you to work, and you get to enjoy the prearranged Christmas/birthday/weekend etc...

Pilots have become very good at avoiding the dreaded call and so BA has been left cancelling a number of flights.

If they started paying decent rates of pay, then pilots would go in and cover the extra work. At the moment, by the time you take Gordons' 40 odd % off, it isn't worth giving up a day of your life.

Well said . Frankly if the rate £££ was realistic then LCG , PD and DW wouldn't have the headache.

Precise figures are; minimum payment per day 4.5 hrs payable, draft element is 1.5 of that . For a new joiner (and lets face it it's the new guys who get all the stress here), it's probably £250 gross, £150 nett.

In other words, totally ****.

You couldn't get a cleaner or labourer to work for £150 a day - Well not in my area. BUT BA, expect a First officer to rush in and help out for exactly that!

The outcome, is that it creates a LOT of bad feeling.

As has been mentioned above - in previous years it used to be a reasonable sum , especially for long haul guys - but now it's a real problem for new joiners.

If any of you are thinking of joining BA then be aware;
(i) It IS PART of your contractural obligations, saying no will lead immediately to a nasty call from a manager and a threat of suspension. ( do your really need the hassle?)
(ii) Thanks to the stupid and negligent lack of foresight of BA managers there is an ACUTE pilot shortage at the moment. ( they mistakenly thought type rated 777 and A320 pilots would beat a path to their door when recruitment started a bout 7 months ago.)
There is a lot of force draft around. This week several flights were cancelled due to an Airbus pilot shortage. This shortage and lack of planning from arrogant pompous managers has a big deleterious impact on our passengers.
Sadly, BA can no longer attract applicants. Apparently Air Lingus have a surplus of pilots who will be flying for BA ( on loan ) later this year.
(iii) They (Flight managers) WILL use dirty tricks to get hold of you. As stated above. For example they have been known to leave a voice mail asking you to ask you to call a duty manager . ( Ie not the usual current ops ) When you call in, BANG, you get force drafted.
(iv) It affects junior guys more than senior pilots because they start from the bottom of the list.
(v) If you join BA this will affect you. Excuses such as Weddings, Christenings, Birthday dinners, Concert tickets are of no use. BA only see things from their point of view.
(vi) As a junior guy remember that BA has a preference bidding system, You will already be working every weekend. If you do get a weekend off then get drafted ( drafting is most common on weekends) you will be mightily upset!

All airlines, at times, expect you to work on a day off. Some pay fair compensation , others don't . In all cases you can decline if you choose.

The difference is; at BA YOU ARE CONTRACTURALLY BOUND TO WORK if req'd.

changed my mind

I am astounded that some half-wit has chosen to start airing what is really only of concern to those within BA!

Shuttleworth, your post is so full of inaccuracies, unfounded generalisations and plain untruths that it is not worth even attempting a response, apart from to say that you are divorced from reality if you think that £150 nett for a junior pilot's day's work is poor pay.

£150 for a an 'extra' days work, is pretty crappy. I think you'll find that most decent airlines pay a bit more than that.

It doesn't matter if the crew is a 'junior' pilot (what is that by the way?) as if they aren't there, the flight doesn't go, no matter how 'senior' the other crew member.

How can you be 'forced' to work on a day off?

You can't be forced to work on your day off. It's against UK employment law AND most certainly against the EU Human Rights legislation. A collective bargaining agreement like BLR's can't overrule an individuals rights to UK legal protection.

I suggest that anybody who has been force drafted sends an Email to their FM to ask if force drafting is legal. Also a letter to BALPA asking the same question. It would be very interesting to see how BA/BALPA respond.

Then again,at least BA does PAY for working a day off, so at least it's not stuck in the feudal dark ages like your 'major' eh?

BALPA respond? They are so spineless, it's beyond belief!

Yes and of course Emirates is all sunshine and roses.

How's the management piss taking going or your pencilled in rosters?

How's your union representation going?

Hello MMouse!
Now MM (who appears to post like some kind of pilot manager ) said ;I am astounded that some half-wit has chosen to start airing what is really only of concern to those within BA!

Hot Wings had good reasons for airing this. There have been lots of cancellations this week. Some ppruners may have been severely inconvenienced along with regular passengers. Now Flight Ops Mgt are starting a PR war. They claim it’s BALPA members working to rule. The truth is that they have totally screwed up the recruitment and fleet planning process. Some ppruners don’t have access to the BA BALPA board and it’s important that they can read the real facts. Hot Wings did the right thing.

By the way, BA’s onerous conditions of employment are of interest to some guys on Pprune because hundreds applied for jobs here. BA are unique in having the ability to suspend you if you don’t work on a day off. It may not be a PPRUNE rumour/news – but it’s certainly worth knowing.

Shuttleworth, your post is so full of inaccuracies, unfounded generalisations and plain untruths that it is not worth even attempting a response, apart from to say that you are divorced from reality if you think that £150 nett for a junior pilot's day's work is poor pay.
You'd have to be more specific here MMouse. I haven't tried to mislead anyone. Just the facts.

I agree with Maxy 101, say again slowly and others, and certainly do think 150 nett is not a fair payment for working on a day off. If you think its fair, as you say, then I suggest (i) You have severely misunderstood the responsibilities of the job and (ii) Not read all the other factors




Someone said
“As an aside I can't see why anyone would want to join BA these days, it used to be the place to be, but no more.”

That sums it up nicely!

By the way, that stupid comment about taxes and feeding starving people in Africa needs deleting fast!

Even Ryanair pay more than £150 and you can turn it down!:eek:

I shall duck for cover now....lol ;)

Can a lowly SLF please ask two questions?
1. If you are force drafted for a day, do you get another day off in lieu at some stage or is this an extra day's work?
2. Do I understand it right that the pay system at BA is salary plus "extras" (probably not the right word for it) and that the £250/£150 is one of those "extra" payments for working the additional day when force drafted?

Sorry to be nosy, but if a flight gets canx on me because of a tech crew shortage it's more comforting to know what the underlying causes are.

M.Mouse
 

If people don't want the £150, isn't it obvious that it's not enough? Everyman has his price. Mine is rather more than that!

Surprised at what i have read about forced days off at BA. Even our lot at Ryanair haven't come up with that one. I hope they are not reading this thread.

At Ryanair think a day off payment stands at £230 net and if you work the longest day you get £185 net so in total £415 in your pocket.

Personally I still think its not enough and there is no forced working. Got asked the other day said no. No biggy.

As a member of BALPA please dont tell me they agreed to that when in negotiation with BA management. Doesnt instill me with confidence if they ever get in at our place.

Ifleeplanes... exactly ! Even O leary pays more.

Globaliser ... That's the problem . If they contact you ( and some of the ways of avoiding this are not as easy as people think...) then if you refuse they get very aggressive and suspend you .

Unwise Owl, getting flight ops management to pay a more realistic sum is the fastest way to solve this but its not likely.
They won't even pay 10p to address it .
They would rather call the pilots unfrofessional and lie about the issues.

The DFO LCG said it's the worst thing to happen to BA pilots in 30 years!

Just to give you a further idea of what the options are at other airlines:

If we work on a day off we can choose between

• 1% of the annual salary plus another day off
  
  Or
  
• 2 days off

Or we can just say no.

Lets put a little perspective on the money

The minimum for a day draft is 6.75 hours at you hourly rate. Now asuming your hourly rate is for a pp1 FO is £37. That is £250 so £150 net. Not great but thats for the lowest paid pilots in the company on shorthaul (pay point 1).


How many of those do we have?

I have just done a 3 day draft trip which grossed at about £1800 and I am a fairly junior Captain.

BTSM

And to put that in perspective ... to be a junior Captain (SH ) here it will now take 15 or 17 years, unlike the 3 or 4 at other employers.
Don't forget BTSM this thread ( Hot Wings will add something here) was started to warn applicants about some of the Victorain work practices here.

How can anyone be forced to give up a Day Off?, it's absurd. The LOCO I work for presently get upset if they believe you are 'refusing a duty' but the whole idea that I'm going to be in trouble with the management if I refuse to give up my off-duty is unheard of and fills me with horror. Is there no protection in the 'agreement for service' type document?

How often does this sort of thing happen anyway?

Firestorm,

When you say BALPA are spineless, I assume you are referring to the volunteer representatives who give up a huge amount of their own time to do their best for their work collegues. If you aren't happy with their performance, why don't you put yourself forward for election and show them how it should be done. You could also stand as a representative on the NEC and be one of the small numer of pilot volunteers who are effectively the management team of BALPA. Yes, BALPA doesn't always get it right and due to the highly competitive nature of the industry, there are many opportunities for managment to set one group of pilots against another, but I am certainly comforted to know that fore every BALPA setback, there are many more victories small or large which generally improve our overall terms and conditions. There are 200 volunter reps working on your behalf, they can't all be spineless. If you believe that they are, take the plunge and have a go yourself.
If not, then at least don't come out with the usual excuses of "I would if it wasn't for being busy with the kids, stamp collecting club meetings etc etc...." Reps have lives too, support them or remove them, but make sure they are replaced by yourself or someone equally as "tough".

Say Mach Mumber,

If you were to get BALPA recognition in FRA, YOUwould be BALPA, ably assisted by a full time negotiator (the ones that I have had dealings with recently are superb if undepaid, under-appreciated and overworked). All you would have to do is put yourself forward for the Company Council. If you do not like BALPA, pick another organsation, but please understand, you and your collegues will be in the front line, will take the flack from both sides and will have a significant workload. Try it though, it is extremely interesting satisfying and occasionally even enjoyable.

I suspect the first item on the table from managment would be a proposal for compulsory day off working. How would you negotiate your way round that? I understand that it might be a little difficult in FRA.

And no, I am not a BA BALPA rep.

Personally wouldn't volunteer to be a BALPA rep as I have absolutely no management aspirations!!! ;)

Kirkwall Some of us have been reps and seen the cosy little chats that go on "over the road" between guys that were on the same Hamble/Prestwick course. From my limited observations, the interests of the line pilot were not always being fought by our hard working reps. There are, I'm sure various reasons for this, running from management/training aspirations to people that are not quite up to the job. Personally, I didnt feel that I was making a difference and stopped. I believe that there are many other reps that realise that they are on a very cushy number (some reps are getting half a months work in BALPA credit) with no reserve and very little for the line pilot to show for it. Perhaps the microscope should be turned on the "underperformers" . After all, they DO get paid to do the job. They are given credit at their hourly rate. Some of us have to go to work and fly aeroplanes to achieve that. A "senior" rep that say, for instance, takes 40 hrs BALPA credit a month on PP 16 as a Captain is essentially being paid (40x 90) i.e 3600 quid a month to be a BALPA rep. That's a lot of money for what we get back. Perhaps we should go down the road of professional full time reps?

Me neither, however there is nothing wrong with it (after a cooling off period of course). After all, a rep is likely to get far more exposure to IR issues, experience and training in a couple of years than most junior managers.

It is quite normal in other industries for managers to have had experience as staff representatives. Is it really a bad thing?

The important thing is to have turnover. Reps can only do so much in their own time. If more people stepped forward to do their bit for shorter periods of time, more might be acieved and those who have been banging their heads against walls for many years on your behalf could take an occasional break.

Fancy having a go yourself? You could always sign a letter giving away your rights to ever move into managment if it bothers you so much.
personally, I think a two year cooling off period is perfectly reasonable.
There are some reps who might even make good managers ands one or two who should probably sit on company Boards. Now there's an interesting concept.

Climb

It is covered by BLR's (bid line rules) which mainline pilots work to as covered in our MOA (memorandum of agreement).

Draft assign as it is called was designed for extreme circumstances and in my 11 years in BA has been seldom used.

However for a variety of reasons, not least that BA are under established, there are now problems covering work at certain times of every month and this DA is being used on a monthly basis to keep the operation going.

It is a very divisive system. The guys hate it and the ops guys hate it but it was never designed to be used in this way.

However, if you have half a brain avoiding the call if fairly easy, as we are now wise to the tricks BA have resorted to to contact us.

For every trick, we have an answer.

Still some people blindly answer the phone when they know its going on and then whinge when they get caught.

May I ask how many hours an average BA pilot does per year?

Don't know about an average overall, but guys on the 747-400/777 all hover around 850-900 flying hrs per year, airbus guys tend to be very similar, perhaps 800-850. 757/767 seems to be lower, although I daresay that is a temporary situation.

Beernice,

If I were to hazard a guess, the average line pilot in longhaul 825-890 hours average, in shorthaul 700-800 hours - this without overtime.

Note: excludes management, BALPA reps, trainers etc

Shorthaul Airbus LHR about 775 hrs flying (twice that in duty hours)
Longhaul 747 LHR about 850 - 900 hrs flying.
Legal annual maximum 900hrs.

As at 31st May there were exactly 101 pilots, in LH, projected to exceed 820 hours in the preceding 12 months.

It is also worthy of note that those hours include time asleep in the bunk.

BA employs around 3000 pilots and the AVERAGE hours worked quoted in above posts are, like the rest of this thread either wishful thinking or selective in what is being quoted.

Somebody accused me of being a manager, I do so love that hoary old accusation wheeled out when someones biased ramblings are disagreed with.

One further point the most junior pilot would nett. £150 for a one day draft trip. A plumber might earn more but would the plumber's apprentice?

An FO is not an apprentice.