Wishful thinking indeed? I logged 725 hours three years ago, 750 hours two years ago and 775 hours last year on the Airbus without overtime and without exceeding CAP significantly. No time in the bunks either.

Whether or not you think bunk time should be discounted is irrelevant. The CAA say it isn't and thats all that counts. You're also being a bit misleading with your description of the 820 hour projections. The greater masses might like to know that 80hrs+ flying per month is the standard on long haul, so simply by flying a normal line those 101 would exceed the yearly maximum this month. Do you have any figures for the number of pilots between 750 and 819 hours on May 31st? No, didn't think so.

Last year I did over 800 hours in short haul.

None of it was asleep in the bunk.

Money has absolutely nothing to do with the forced draft discussion - it's about having time off work to relax, unwind and share your life with your family ( instead of down route with some arsey tw*t who reckons 'a First Officer is an apprentice' )

Those concerned about money have the facility to volunteer for the extra work and empty the pot.

Look through the back issues of the LH fleet magazine. The graphs were there to see.

The AVERAGE is not as high as being touted here. You said you guessed the average for LH was 850-900 hours, it isn't.

leander

Your claim is that that figure is average, high, low?

Ignoring your obvious lack of ability to use English instead of crude profanity, the comparison I was making was that a newly qualified FO is, by definition, inexperienced. No doubt you think all new pilots deserve to be paid the same as a senior Captain?

Of course the FO is less experienced. Point accepted.

However there is a world of difference between the qualified FO and a plumber's apprentice. It's a very poor choice of comparison indeed.

Bunk time is counted by CAA mandate. Like it or not. It's also irrelevant to the discussion of the principle of forced draft. Of course I could ask if the captain is on rest and something goes wrong, is he no longer responsible?....

However in an attempt not to get sidetracked....

The point is, irrespective of arguments about how many hours have been worked and what they were doing at the time, is it accpetable to be called and told you MUST do overtime, irrespective of any family commitments/arrangements etc. I have an annual event I attend in mid summer for one weekend. This year, after failing to get any useful leave, I succeeded in getting the weekend off through bidding. I have waited all year for this chance to meet up with old friends and bought tickets to travel to the appointed place. Do you think I will accept a call from BA anytime in the preceding week or so?

MMouse
Why exactly?

Regardles of weather you think £150 is resonable for a days work it certainly isn't enough to motivate the company to get the planing right in the first place.

If the company payed a reasonable amount of money for days of work, a few pilots would most likely be interested in taking the extra cash, thus letting the rest keep onnenjoying their spare time.

Also, the company would quickly learn to plan better, if you plan wrong it's gotta hurt a bit. that's what's calling learning by misstakes. There is most likely a lot of problems that could be solved with better planing.

that's my 2cents

MM

I make no 'claim' for my hours - I have flown to CAP all year - my bank has reduced and I have done in excess of 800. Make of it what you will.

Many of our 'junior' pilots are immensely experienced operators from other professional organisations ( including numerous ex-captains). Junior need not necessarily equate to 'apprentice', unless you have a particular penchant for overbearing, pompous and pejorative generalities.

I have checked my post for any reference to comparative pay scales but alas I was unsuccessful. Would you care to explain what leads you to presume that I think that 'all new pilots deserve to be paid the same as a senior Captain?'

hmm, recently fell at the second hurdle trying to join the big boys... Have I had a lucky escape? with Wicked Willie taking the helm later this year, maybe I have!

Because before we all start whingeing about how hard it is flying 900 hours I think a distinction between 900 hours SH and 900 hours including several hundred fast asleep in a bunk should be made. Or is sleeping equally tiring as being awake at the controls?

Which is why I said 'newly qualified'.

Dirty Mac

Life in BA may not be perfect but I know of very few people who actually leave and very few with real life experience of other occupations or other flying jobs who would agree with the more vociferous whingers who really have no idea what they actually have.



I shall bow out of this one now but feel free to continue the abuse, I will read it.

MMouse
1. But the CAA stipulate that all hours count towards the 900 max.
2. 'Several hundred fast asleep' - have you ever flown longhaul - I have. If you have you must be one of the few - most guys I know are lucky to get more than 1-2 hours sleep on a SIN-LHR. On the 777 most operations are East Coast USA, 2 crew, no bunk rest. Therefore 850 hours = 850 hours flying.
3. The scientifically derived CAA limits are just that - a MAXIMUM, not a target.
4. I agree that 900 hours SH vs 900 hrs LH are different animals, but SH don't fly 900 hours and there is no jet lag involved.

If you don't see that .....

MM

Your 'apprentice' reference was to 'junior' pilots.

'Newly qualified' only appeared after attention was drawn to your pomposity.

Back to the thread - this is about less work, not more money.

OK guys let's see now:-

Get yourself one of those premium rate numbers, you know the ones that cost about two quid per minute, then buy an answering machine and switch it to answer only mode i.e. it plays the message tape but doesn’t give an opportunity of leaving a message. Then record your message in your best PA trained voice speaking nice and S-L-O-W-L-Y as follows:-

Hello this is Captain Nigel Smallpiece (or as appropriate), unfortunately Doris and myself are not able to take your call at the moment as we are out with our son Nigel junior and our daughter Bella who has now grown to an altitude of five feet. We have taken Rover the dog, Felix the cat and chirps the budgie with us, the weather today is overcast with a possibility of showers, thank you for calling.

But seriously, Draft in the new agreement (1999/2000) was not meant to cover overtime nor underestablishment, it was to cover rare unforseen events such as grounding of one aircraft type or flu epidemics, it was only supposed to be used infrequently and both sides understood that clearly. They are trying it on, say NO!

Jeez, didn't realise that you can be forced to work on a day off. Whatever moans we have in bmi on the relative merits of our agreement to BA's at least we have in black and white:

"Rostered days off: A pilot may refuse to be called out on a rostered day off without prejudice"

Cut and dry, they sometimes ask but a polite no means that you will not be bothered again.

Max A

Although we have all known about FD as a concept I'm not sure it was ingrained in our collective consciousness as a regular life spoiler until quite recently.

In similar fashion we have all known about our contractual obligations ( as a concept ) but have always done our bit to keep the show on the road.

The increase in FD has forced an increased interest and awareness of our contract - leading to the 'Laminated Card', less running and more unanswered calls from 'number withheld'.

The question remains - if my friends and I are working to a CAP of about 90 hours pcm we either have a load of skivers hidden in our midst, or a shortage of flight crew. The debate continues.

Hopefully our respective CC's will learn from our respective woes and not let these things happen more than once / get worse across the UK industry.

thanks!
 

As a mil pilot looking to cross over into the airline world, these posts are of great help. Us mil chaps don't have the chance to hear all the inns and outs of each company. So I personally am grateful that people are willing to point out the negative sides to each contract. Being forced to work unrostered days is an important factor, when it is this sort of thing that that we leave the military to avoid.
It is then down to the individual to make an informed choice (if a choice of employers is available at all!).

Mr SB

Forced draft was previously very rare. It was written in to the agreement to cover for the extreme and unusual. It is only recently that it has become such an issue. Trying to be positive, BALPA and BA are obliged to jointly seek a way to modify arrangements to return us to the previous situation where FD was such a rarity.

Mr. Seabass

I am afraid that you will get a very distorted view of any compay by listening to the often extreme views of the disaffected few posting anonymously on PPRUNE.

I do not just refer to BA pilots either.

The issue of 'force draft' has arisen because it was rarely used. Until recently I was 'force drafted' once in 18 years. Opinions vary as to the current cause of force drafting being used more than infrequently but overall the numbers are very small and the issues causing the problem will be addressed by the joint BA/BALPA scheduling committee.

I am probably correct in saying that we have the most stable and sacrosanct rostering system in the UK.

If you truly are looking to leave the military then PM me and I will give you an honest account of what can realistically be expected - warts and all.

Yes, you could fly as M.Mouses apprentice!:D

Carnage Matey

ROFL.......

I do remember being rung up offering a draft on a Saturday morning (ETD 0500) to fly an empty B777 to Cardiff. Reporting time 0330.

The return to LHR was to be by a crew transit van.

The credit as it was longhaul was 3 hours.

At the time, after tax it was worth £140.

I did not comment to rosters on the financial gain but refused on the grounds that I had JCB driver turning up at 0900 to dig some foundations.

He finished at 1130 and took £150 for cash!!

Hi woodpecker

Not nitpicking, just clarifying for the sake of those not familiar with the dreaded Bidline Rules......

If BA "Draft" you, you can turn it down,

If BA "Force Draft" you, you must accept.

In theory BA will offer Draft initially to pilots in a defined ( by the Rules) order. If no one accepts BA will then Force Draft, again, in theory, in a defined order...................( which means the first sucker to pick up the telephone gets nailed)

that's the theory

Correct, "that's the theory"

If you go back to the start of bidline as we know it now there were many pilots on standby (on the stack) at home and at the airport. It was quite acceptable if you were at the "bottom of the stack" to go off and play golf (with pager).

But with time BA (in their wisdom) reduced the numbers on standby and started to use the draft facility as standby cover.

If one has the right number of crews per aircraft, together with sensible rostering (not max duty with min rest, together with min turnrounds) it could work.

Odd "drafts on the day" were cheaper than many pilots "on the stack". However BA would ignore the "draft from volunteers from the top", then, if no takers "force-draft" from the bottom of the seniority. They had their own lists of "helpful" pilots that lived locally and were able to be "drafted on the day" at very short notice. Human nature I suppose, but not within the "rules".

However, as the workload increased the number of "volunteer drafts" (starting at the top) decreased such that rosters having had no "volunteers" following numerous telephone calls had to resort to "force drafting" (from the bottom). In theory the most junior pilot would be contacted offering a "draft", and if he refuses the offer is then hit with a "force draft". If you were near the bottom, and had refused an "offer" then keep away from the phone the next time it rings 'cos it may well be a force draft!

There were stories of pilots installing an extra phone (BA only required one number) for work calls. One chap even had a red phone! If it rang and you wanted to talk to BA then answer it, if not don't!

Although amusing the tales of wives answering phones and suggested hubby was "off fishing" were numerous. Rosters even resorted, once the wife answered, to suggesting "BA here, just to let you know you husband has got stuck in JFK" to which she (off he guard) replied "but he is next to me here!!". "Fine, in that case we wish to force draft him". Now we see modern equivalents in the form of "caller id" and "call barring" taking the place of the well trained wife!

Pilots are a reasonable bunch, and will "go the extra mile" for the company as long as they don't feel the company is taking the p*ss. At the moment they feel they are.

Just a last thought, scheduling is always difficult under bidline at the beginning of each month with trips carrying in from the previous month clashing with the first trip(s) of the new month. When half term/ bank holiday weekends are also at the beginning of the month it can be desperate. June is one such month. BALPA approached the company months ago pointing out the problem and suggesting they reduce the number of trips overlapping into June, together with reducing SEPT, Simulator, route checks etc for the first few days of the month. The suggestions were ignored. BA are now paying the price with cancelled trips.

I wonder if another angle to all this "disruption" is that BA are looking to scrap Bidline. What a great opportunity for the company to approach more than reasonable BALPA and its very reasonable reps and suggest "Bidline isn't working" "we need to bring the pilots into the 21st Century" "We'll run any new system in parallel for 6 months" "We guarantee that you wont be worse off" Interesting times ahead, I feel.

If they do get hold of you and it is a day off then why can't you just say you've just had 3 pints of beer? After all, you're allowed to do whatever you like on a day off...

Because they are not going to be drafting you for that day but the next one,two or three days...

Never been FD'ed in 5 years. Have turned down draft on the odd occasion. Never seen anyone work to rule. Have seen people work to the CAA legal limits. Not surprised if were short of pilots. We are fairly paid. We do work hard. Last time I did draft it was worth about 500 notes a day.

Bottom Line

maxy101

IMHO there seems to have been a change of mood amongst the BA BALPA Reps. Historically yes, there were perhaps too many agreements made down at the lodge or at a "College" reunion. However since the flushing out of one high profile Rep ( to management) last year and the quiet retirement of one or two others I reckon BALPA has now got a bit of spine. Hopefully the general membership has got the same.

I am absolutely against destructive actions, like a wild strike to say something. But it is of MAJOR importance that pilots stick together and speak and act as one. Our unity and professionalism are the only things we can use to negociate AND help our company move ahead.

So indeed: it's definitely (and always) time to show some spine in the talks with management. Respect and be respected, right?
Be reasonable and be treated reasonably, right?

The future's still bright!:ok:

So, BA Pilots union, what's the objection to employing contract pilots now, then? As can be seen from this thread, BA pilots would prefer not to have forced days. Well, why not use contractors?

Many other airlines do this very successfully and they integrate with permanent full-time staff with no problems. Or I am just being too stupid to even think of suggesting such a dramatic and obviously ridiculous idea? Moaning is more fun than finding solutions!

Why not contract out all our jobs and save money? The aim is to get BA to improve starter conditions so that they can recruit people to the Airbus fleet and get the right number of pilots. Contracting out means reduced opportunities for BA pilots (fewer commands available as establishment levels shrink), and does nothing to drive up the base level of remuneration for UK pilots as a whole. Not to mention driving a coach and horses through our scope agreement. The point is moot anyway because the management don't want to pay the high costs associated with contracting out the work, they'd rather just work their own pilots into the ground as its cheaper.

We have gone from 3500pilots to just under 3000. The company needs to recruit but appears to be having problems attracting pilots to the Shorthaul environment. What does that tell you about the deal on offer?

We all complain about the forced draft, but this is an opportunity to improve the terms and conditions on shorthaul. We are always hearing about the market rate. Well here it is. Can't get enough pilots, make the job more attractive.

Temporary pilots from whatever source allow BA to hide from the market pressures out there and prop up the current situation. Additionally why stop on that fleet? Short of 747 pilots, no problem let's pull in a few from Asia, that would help keep the pay of these pesky pilots down....

One could be forgiven for wondering if the sudden increase in Forced Draft isn't really an attempt to undermine BLR and encourage us to allow BA to pull in cheaper pilots........

No consolation but its the same all the way down the food-chain. All airlines are trying to do more with less relying when push comes to shove on the pilots 'professionalism' to save the day. They don't employ enough, they train them too late when a problem becomes apparent and then when they scrape through another year, the managers take their bonus payments and pat themselves on the back. My company is small fry compared to BA but we do employ 350 pilots operating a mixed Boeing/Airbus fleet and industrial relations are very fragile as a second round of pay negotiations is about to be turned down or so rumour has it !

Diesel. You have a good point . Well said.

Airlines are doing OK at the minute. For the last 3 years we've had various "excuses", som real - 9/11, Iraq war, fuel prices.
This year most airlines in the UK are doing OK and this is the time that the pilots need to claw back on their terms and conditions.
In the next couple of years we may see a recession and airlines will be clawing T&Cs back in their direction.
If we don't act now then the future will see even further reductions and degradations of both pay and conditions.
BA is at the top of the chain and if they offered a great deal to new joiners then those airlines lower down the chain would have to pay more to retain people as well.
So I fully support BA pilots in trying to improve their lot.
As for BA's current deal for new joiners, it is SO not worth it! The money is a big cut for many FOs and although the allowances make up for it, you are working more hours than most charter airlines, have a crap pension and the time to command is also a big minus point for many.
Other than new young FOs who are right at the bottom of the seniority lists at other companies, who are they hoping to attract?

Airbus Girl

I believe the current deal for BA new joiners is well worth it. I currently earn a decent salary with a low cost, however my take home with BA, even in year 1 will be £800 a month more, and only about £500 a month less than a Captain where I work. The pension is an improvement compared with now and I will be flying no more hours (currently 900 a year) yet have more days off. This is the sector where BA new joiners will come from, as you say probably not so much from the charter airlines.

Regards

Airbus Girl.

Would you mind naming the airlines where "many FO's" earn £3600 or more NET a month (on a months flying) ???

Oh and with a pay bridge for when you get your command ?


Just can't think of that many (Maybe VS); unless you'd been with them a very long time.


Thanks.

Here's my thought process I went through when considering application to BA. I am a SFO for a typical LCC.

Now: £41k + usual fdp package
BA: £42k + usual fdp package

Now: 1.5 years to command
BA: 12-15 (?) years to command.

No thanks! Furthermore, my age (late 30's) is such that I may never get a command (a pal of mine in BA was declined because he only had a year to go.)

Furthermore, I have personally encountered some astonishing pomposity amongst certain BA captains, and I really wouldn't enjoy that.

Finally, I'd forever have a very low seniority, and would have to endure scrag-end rosters and possibly FD!

Thanks, but no thanks. Didn't bother applying. Fine for a 22 year old looking for a long career, but not very attractive for us rated people with an established career.

Stu

I think you have hit the nail on the head. It's all ok if you are just starting out but BA is after experienced and type rated DEPs. To this group, the long time to command alone undermines the deal.

We hear so much about market forces. Well it works both ways.

The Greaser, what you failed to mention is that you make more cash and get a few days off more per month but you end up spending it downroute whilst spending loads of time away from home.

Pressure on marriage, seeing your kids etc etc

Great opportunity but no thanks.

If it's such a long time to command why the pressure to recruit experienced DEP's? Surely experience levels in BA aren't that bad?

Scottie
I believe the idea is the experienced DEPs are recruited to go straight onto the 777 (something to do with having the hours for the ATPL and hence the DEPs are able to do the "heavy" pilot/acting pilot in Command job on the long range sectors). BTW If you fancy some sport and want to open another can of worms you might want to ask why BA don't need/aren't recruiting DEPs direct onto the 747 as well...........

Stu/Diesel
IMHO you are spot on in your assessment.

Rgds all