Wishful thinking indeed? I logged 725 hours three years ago, 750 hours two years ago and 775 hours last year on the Airbus without overtime and without exceeding CAP significantly. No time in the bunks either.

Whether or not you think bunk time should be discounted is irrelevant. The CAA say it isn't and thats all that counts. You're also being a bit misleading with your description of the 820 hour projections. The greater masses might like to know that 80hrs+ flying per month is the standard on long haul, so simply by flying a normal line those 101 would exceed the yearly maximum this month. Do you have any figures for the number of pilots between 750 and 819 hours on May 31st? No, didn't think so.

Last year I did over 800 hours in short haul.

None of it was asleep in the bunk.

Money has absolutely nothing to do with the forced draft discussion - it's about having time off work to relax, unwind and share your life with your family ( instead of down route with some arsey tw*t who reckons 'a First Officer is an apprentice' )

Those concerned about money have the facility to volunteer for the extra work and empty the pot.

Look through the back issues of the LH fleet magazine. The graphs were there to see.

The AVERAGE is not as high as being touted here. You said you guessed the average for LH was 850-900 hours, it isn't.

leander

Your claim is that that figure is average, high, low?

Ignoring your obvious lack of ability to use English instead of crude profanity, the comparison I was making was that a newly qualified FO is, by definition, inexperienced. No doubt you think all new pilots deserve to be paid the same as a senior Captain?

Of course the FO is less experienced. Point accepted.

However there is a world of difference between the qualified FO and a plumber's apprentice. It's a very poor choice of comparison indeed.

Bunk time is counted by CAA mandate. Like it or not. It's also irrelevant to the discussion of the principle of forced draft. Of course I could ask if the captain is on rest and something goes wrong, is he no longer responsible?....

However in an attempt not to get sidetracked....

The point is, irrespective of arguments about how many hours have been worked and what they were doing at the time, is it accpetable to be called and told you MUST do overtime, irrespective of any family commitments/arrangements etc. I have an annual event I attend in mid summer for one weekend. This year, after failing to get any useful leave, I succeeded in getting the weekend off through bidding. I have waited all year for this chance to meet up with old friends and bought tickets to travel to the appointed place. Do you think I will accept a call from BA anytime in the preceding week or so?

MMouse
Why exactly?

Regardles of weather you think £150 is resonable for a days work it certainly isn't enough to motivate the company to get the planing right in the first place.

If the company payed a reasonable amount of money for days of work, a few pilots would most likely be interested in taking the extra cash, thus letting the rest keep onnenjoying their spare time.

Also, the company would quickly learn to plan better, if you plan wrong it's gotta hurt a bit. that's what's calling learning by misstakes. There is most likely a lot of problems that could be solved with better planing.

that's my 2cents

MM

I make no 'claim' for my hours - I have flown to CAP all year - my bank has reduced and I have done in excess of 800. Make of it what you will.

Many of our 'junior' pilots are immensely experienced operators from other professional organisations ( including numerous ex-captains). Junior need not necessarily equate to 'apprentice', unless you have a particular penchant for overbearing, pompous and pejorative generalities.

I have checked my post for any reference to comparative pay scales but alas I was unsuccessful. Would you care to explain what leads you to presume that I think that 'all new pilots deserve to be paid the same as a senior Captain?'

hmm, recently fell at the second hurdle trying to join the big boys... Have I had a lucky escape? with Wicked Willie taking the helm later this year, maybe I have!

Because before we all start whingeing about how hard it is flying 900 hours I think a distinction between 900 hours SH and 900 hours including several hundred fast asleep in a bunk should be made. Or is sleeping equally tiring as being awake at the controls?

Which is why I said 'newly qualified'.

Dirty Mac

Life in BA may not be perfect but I know of very few people who actually leave and very few with real life experience of other occupations or other flying jobs who would agree with the more vociferous whingers who really have no idea what they actually have.



I shall bow out of this one now but feel free to continue the abuse, I will read it.

MMouse
1. But the CAA stipulate that all hours count towards the 900 max.
2. 'Several hundred fast asleep' - have you ever flown longhaul - I have. If you have you must be one of the few - most guys I know are lucky to get more than 1-2 hours sleep on a SIN-LHR. On the 777 most operations are East Coast USA, 2 crew, no bunk rest. Therefore 850 hours = 850 hours flying.
3. The scientifically derived CAA limits are just that - a MAXIMUM, not a target.
4. I agree that 900 hours SH vs 900 hrs LH are different animals, but SH don't fly 900 hours and there is no jet lag involved.

If you don't see that .....

MM

Your 'apprentice' reference was to 'junior' pilots.

'Newly qualified' only appeared after attention was drawn to your pomposity.

Back to the thread - this is about less work, not more money.

OK guys let's see now:-

Get yourself one of those premium rate numbers, you know the ones that cost about two quid per minute, then buy an answering machine and switch it to answer only mode i.e. it plays the message tape but doesn’t give an opportunity of leaving a message. Then record your message in your best PA trained voice speaking nice and S-L-O-W-L-Y as follows:-

Hello this is Captain Nigel Smallpiece (or as appropriate), unfortunately Doris and myself are not able to take your call at the moment as we are out with our son Nigel junior and our daughter Bella who has now grown to an altitude of five feet. We have taken Rover the dog, Felix the cat and chirps the budgie with us, the weather today is overcast with a possibility of showers, thank you for calling.

But seriously, Draft in the new agreement (1999/2000) was not meant to cover overtime nor underestablishment, it was to cover rare unforseen events such as grounding of one aircraft type or flu epidemics, it was only supposed to be used infrequently and both sides understood that clearly. They are trying it on, say NO!

Jeez, didn't realise that you can be forced to work on a day off. Whatever moans we have in bmi on the relative merits of our agreement to BA's at least we have in black and white:

"Rostered days off: A pilot may refuse to be called out on a rostered day off without prejudice"

Cut and dry, they sometimes ask but a polite no means that you will not be bothered again.

Max A

Although we have all known about FD as a concept I'm not sure it was ingrained in our collective consciousness as a regular life spoiler until quite recently.

In similar fashion we have all known about our contractual obligations ( as a concept ) but have always done our bit to keep the show on the road.

The increase in FD has forced an increased interest and awareness of our contract - leading to the 'Laminated Card', less running and more unanswered calls from 'number withheld'.

The question remains - if my friends and I are working to a CAP of about 90 hours pcm we either have a load of skivers hidden in our midst, or a shortage of flight crew. The debate continues.

Hopefully our respective CC's will learn from our respective woes and not let these things happen more than once / get worse across the UK industry.

thanks!
 

As a mil pilot looking to cross over into the airline world, these posts are of great help. Us mil chaps don't have the chance to hear all the inns and outs of each company. So I personally am grateful that people are willing to point out the negative sides to each contract. Being forced to work unrostered days is an important factor, when it is this sort of thing that that we leave the military to avoid.
It is then down to the individual to make an informed choice (if a choice of employers is available at all!).

Mr SB

Forced draft was previously very rare. It was written in to the agreement to cover for the extreme and unusual. It is only recently that it has become such an issue. Trying to be positive, BALPA and BA are obliged to jointly seek a way to modify arrangements to return us to the previous situation where FD was such a rarity.

Mr. Seabass

I am afraid that you will get a very distorted view of any compay by listening to the often extreme views of the disaffected few posting anonymously on PPRUNE.

I do not just refer to BA pilots either.

The issue of 'force draft' has arisen because it was rarely used. Until recently I was 'force drafted' once in 18 years. Opinions vary as to the current cause of force drafting being used more than infrequently but overall the numbers are very small and the issues causing the problem will be addressed by the joint BA/BALPA scheduling committee.

I am probably correct in saying that we have the most stable and sacrosanct rostering system in the UK.

If you truly are looking to leave the military then PM me and I will give you an honest account of what can realistically be expected - warts and all.

Yes, you could fly as M.Mouses apprentice!:D

Carnage Matey

ROFL.......

I do remember being rung up offering a draft on a Saturday morning (ETD 0500) to fly an empty B777 to Cardiff. Reporting time 0330.

The return to LHR was to be by a crew transit van.

The credit as it was longhaul was 3 hours.

At the time, after tax it was worth £140.

I did not comment to rosters on the financial gain but refused on the grounds that I had JCB driver turning up at 0900 to dig some foundations.

He finished at 1130 and took £150 for cash!!