Even Ryanair pay more than £150 and you can turn it down!:eek:

I shall duck for cover now....lol ;)

Can a lowly SLF please ask two questions?
1. If you are force drafted for a day, do you get another day off in lieu at some stage or is this an extra day's work?
2. Do I understand it right that the pay system at BA is salary plus "extras" (probably not the right word for it) and that the £250/£150 is one of those "extra" payments for working the additional day when force drafted?

Sorry to be nosy, but if a flight gets canx on me because of a tech crew shortage it's more comforting to know what the underlying causes are.

M.Mouse
 

If people don't want the £150, isn't it obvious that it's not enough? Everyman has his price. Mine is rather more than that!

Surprised at what i have read about forced days off at BA. Even our lot at Ryanair haven't come up with that one. I hope they are not reading this thread.

At Ryanair think a day off payment stands at £230 net and if you work the longest day you get £185 net so in total £415 in your pocket.

Personally I still think its not enough and there is no forced working. Got asked the other day said no. No biggy.

As a member of BALPA please dont tell me they agreed to that when in negotiation with BA management. Doesnt instill me with confidence if they ever get in at our place.

Ifleeplanes... exactly ! Even O leary pays more.

Globaliser ... That's the problem . If they contact you ( and some of the ways of avoiding this are not as easy as people think...) then if you refuse they get very aggressive and suspend you .

Unwise Owl, getting flight ops management to pay a more realistic sum is the fastest way to solve this but its not likely.
They won't even pay 10p to address it .
They would rather call the pilots unfrofessional and lie about the issues.

The DFO LCG said it's the worst thing to happen to BA pilots in 30 years!

Just to give you a further idea of what the options are at other airlines:

If we work on a day off we can choose between

• 1% of the annual salary plus another day off
  
  Or
  
• 2 days off

Or we can just say no.

Lets put a little perspective on the money

The minimum for a day draft is 6.75 hours at you hourly rate. Now asuming your hourly rate is for a pp1 FO is £37. That is £250 so £150 net. Not great but thats for the lowest paid pilots in the company on shorthaul (pay point 1).


How many of those do we have?

I have just done a 3 day draft trip which grossed at about £1800 and I am a fairly junior Captain.

BTSM

And to put that in perspective ... to be a junior Captain (SH ) here it will now take 15 or 17 years, unlike the 3 or 4 at other employers.
Don't forget BTSM this thread ( Hot Wings will add something here) was started to warn applicants about some of the Victorain work practices here.

How can anyone be forced to give up a Day Off?, it's absurd. The LOCO I work for presently get upset if they believe you are 'refusing a duty' but the whole idea that I'm going to be in trouble with the management if I refuse to give up my off-duty is unheard of and fills me with horror. Is there no protection in the 'agreement for service' type document?

How often does this sort of thing happen anyway?

Firestorm,

When you say BALPA are spineless, I assume you are referring to the volunteer representatives who give up a huge amount of their own time to do their best for their work collegues. If you aren't happy with their performance, why don't you put yourself forward for election and show them how it should be done. You could also stand as a representative on the NEC and be one of the small numer of pilot volunteers who are effectively the management team of BALPA. Yes, BALPA doesn't always get it right and due to the highly competitive nature of the industry, there are many opportunities for managment to set one group of pilots against another, but I am certainly comforted to know that fore every BALPA setback, there are many more victories small or large which generally improve our overall terms and conditions. There are 200 volunter reps working on your behalf, they can't all be spineless. If you believe that they are, take the plunge and have a go yourself.
If not, then at least don't come out with the usual excuses of "I would if it wasn't for being busy with the kids, stamp collecting club meetings etc etc...." Reps have lives too, support them or remove them, but make sure they are replaced by yourself or someone equally as "tough".

Say Mach Mumber,

If you were to get BALPA recognition in FRA, YOUwould be BALPA, ably assisted by a full time negotiator (the ones that I have had dealings with recently are superb if undepaid, under-appreciated and overworked). All you would have to do is put yourself forward for the Company Council. If you do not like BALPA, pick another organsation, but please understand, you and your collegues will be in the front line, will take the flack from both sides and will have a significant workload. Try it though, it is extremely interesting satisfying and occasionally even enjoyable.

I suspect the first item on the table from managment would be a proposal for compulsory day off working. How would you negotiate your way round that? I understand that it might be a little difficult in FRA.

And no, I am not a BA BALPA rep.

Personally wouldn't volunteer to be a BALPA rep as I have absolutely no management aspirations!!! ;)

Kirkwall Some of us have been reps and seen the cosy little chats that go on "over the road" between guys that were on the same Hamble/Prestwick course. From my limited observations, the interests of the line pilot were not always being fought by our hard working reps. There are, I'm sure various reasons for this, running from management/training aspirations to people that are not quite up to the job. Personally, I didnt feel that I was making a difference and stopped. I believe that there are many other reps that realise that they are on a very cushy number (some reps are getting half a months work in BALPA credit) with no reserve and very little for the line pilot to show for it. Perhaps the microscope should be turned on the "underperformers" . After all, they DO get paid to do the job. They are given credit at their hourly rate. Some of us have to go to work and fly aeroplanes to achieve that. A "senior" rep that say, for instance, takes 40 hrs BALPA credit a month on PP 16 as a Captain is essentially being paid (40x 90) i.e 3600 quid a month to be a BALPA rep. That's a lot of money for what we get back. Perhaps we should go down the road of professional full time reps?

Me neither, however there is nothing wrong with it (after a cooling off period of course). After all, a rep is likely to get far more exposure to IR issues, experience and training in a couple of years than most junior managers.

It is quite normal in other industries for managers to have had experience as staff representatives. Is it really a bad thing?

The important thing is to have turnover. Reps can only do so much in their own time. If more people stepped forward to do their bit for shorter periods of time, more might be acieved and those who have been banging their heads against walls for many years on your behalf could take an occasional break.

Fancy having a go yourself? You could always sign a letter giving away your rights to ever move into managment if it bothers you so much.
personally, I think a two year cooling off period is perfectly reasonable.
There are some reps who might even make good managers ands one or two who should probably sit on company Boards. Now there's an interesting concept.

Climb

It is covered by BLR's (bid line rules) which mainline pilots work to as covered in our MOA (memorandum of agreement).

Draft assign as it is called was designed for extreme circumstances and in my 11 years in BA has been seldom used.

However for a variety of reasons, not least that BA are under established, there are now problems covering work at certain times of every month and this DA is being used on a monthly basis to keep the operation going.

It is a very divisive system. The guys hate it and the ops guys hate it but it was never designed to be used in this way.

However, if you have half a brain avoiding the call if fairly easy, as we are now wise to the tricks BA have resorted to to contact us.

For every trick, we have an answer.

Still some people blindly answer the phone when they know its going on and then whinge when they get caught.

May I ask how many hours an average BA pilot does per year?

Don't know about an average overall, but guys on the 747-400/777 all hover around 850-900 flying hrs per year, airbus guys tend to be very similar, perhaps 800-850. 757/767 seems to be lower, although I daresay that is a temporary situation.

Beernice,

If I were to hazard a guess, the average line pilot in longhaul 825-890 hours average, in shorthaul 700-800 hours - this without overtime.

Note: excludes management, BALPA reps, trainers etc

Shorthaul Airbus LHR about 775 hrs flying (twice that in duty hours)
Longhaul 747 LHR about 850 - 900 hrs flying.
Legal annual maximum 900hrs.

As at 31st May there were exactly 101 pilots, in LH, projected to exceed 820 hours in the preceding 12 months.

It is also worthy of note that those hours include time asleep in the bunk.

BA employs around 3000 pilots and the AVERAGE hours worked quoted in above posts are, like the rest of this thread either wishful thinking or selective in what is being quoted.

Somebody accused me of being a manager, I do so love that hoary old accusation wheeled out when someones biased ramblings are disagreed with.

One further point the most junior pilot would nett. £150 for a one day draft trip. A plumber might earn more but would the plumber's apprentice?

An FO is not an apprentice.