Virgin Atlantic Questions - the Master Thread! (Merged)
 

Hello All.

I'm considering putting in the application to Virgin, and wondering if anyone could help with some questions. I have seen the previous threads, but hoped for some new up to date info.

Firstly, I would hope to stay living in the Manchester area, and wondered how people get on with commuting?

What is the average take hope pay in the first couple of years, and what is the bond like?

I understand that Virgin is growing rapidly, with lots of new a/c on order - with this in mind, what is the anticipated time to command?

So far, I have only flown short/medium haul (I should be starting long haul this winter). How do you generally find long/ultra long-haul flying, and do you get used to the lack of handling? Also, do you get to know your peers, or is it a new face every time?

I would be interested to hear any other points that you may feel are relevant - good and bad.

Thanks for any help you can give me, I will appreciate it.

Nothing much has changed since the threads linked to below, but I'll try and answer some of your points:

Commuting: people commute froma good deal further away than Manchester. I think Cape Town is the furthest anyone commutes from. It's a bit of a pain, but it can be done.

The bond is 20k for, I think, three years. Pay starts at approximately 41k basic (incremented), plus 7.5k productivity pay plus around 6k allowances. Loss of licence (90k), Permanent Health Insurance (like critical illness cover), private medical cover, death in service benefit, and a defined contribution pension scheme (15% from the company so long as you cointribute a minimum of 6%) are all included. Take home pay will depend on how much you put into your pension, but you should start at around 2500 quid.

Time to command is difficult to assess. For new joiners I would anticipate somewhere around 8-10 years. It's unlikely to be more, and it could be less, depending on how long the airline continues to expand. The orders envisaged now will not quite soak up all the current FOs.

Long haul flying has been debated at length elsewhere in this forum; I'm not going to attempt to reiterate it all here! You do get to see mates from time to time, but expansion will make that less and less so.

Links:

Virgin Commands

Virgin Pay

BA vs Virgin

Virgin Recruiting

Virgin Atlantic Orders for 26 A340-600s

Hope this helps!

Thanks Scroggs,

Your info and links were helpful. I am suprised at the take home pay. I am on a considerably lower salary, and come away with pretty much the same. Is that amount of £2500 based on the standard pension contribution (6%) with flight pay included, or are there other factors here?

Thanks again for the help.

FD

I guess if you make no pension contribution, the take-home will be higher. If you make the maximum 15% contribution (age and fund dependent) it'll be less. I'm sure you could stick the gross figures into TaxCalc and see what you come out with; there are no 'hidden' company deductions! I should point out the allowances are not paid as salary, they are paid in cash down route. A net of 2.5k from a gross of around 4k per month seems about right for a UK tax payer.

This is what it says on the website: This is the link to the application:
Virgin app

Most applicants have more than 2500, for sure, as you would expect when most of them currently possess A330, 340 or B744 experience. But there are plenty with 'only' A320 or B737 time. What have you got to lose by applying?

Scroggs,

Will command time on Military transport ac reduce your time to command with Virgin? Is there a general policy on this in the Civ world? I have an option coming up and need to make a decision!

Thanks

16B

In the real world we have seniority lists so hopefully if they are worth their salt, you will have to wait your turn !

FD Standby

You might want to ask Scroggs about Standby Duties, because if your commuting then you might have to think about where you will do them, and you might have to pay for B+B etc.

These are the sort of things that Pilots to forget about at interview then moan about the first time they see one!

No command time on any aircraft for any operator will reduce your time to command in Virgin, or any other reputable and established airline. You have no right to a command ahead of those who joined before you, all of whose qualifications are by definition acceptable to the airline for command at the appropriate time. In other words, and as I have 15 years command, and 10 years training, experience from my military years (mostly on C130s), and am still a First Officer after 6 years at Virgin, you can bloody well wait your turn!

Standby in Virgin is now done a month at a time. It is possible, through negotiation with crewing, to arrange at least some of the month's programme in advance, so minimising the need to hang around in B&Bs or hotels. However, it is possible (though unlikely) that you could spend your standby month on the ground, so you must have accommodation available. We do not do airport standby in Virgin.

Scroggs,

Thank you for putting me in the picture. Like I said, I really have no clue how it works in your world. How would you compare your job with Virgin now with the job you did in the mob? Don't know when you left, but the job has changed somewhat in the last 3 yrs or so, much more Tac orientated now. Any other ex-mil guys care to give their perspective?

(sorry if this is inducing thread creep!)

16B

Scroggs,

Thanks again for all the info, all good stuff. I would like to know if Virgin are fully crewed? There is a rumour doing the circuit that they are woefully short on both fleets and will be hard pushed to operate the aussie route at the years end. The figure I hear is another 80 pilots required by December!


Ta
TBE.

I left in 1998. My job at the time (and for the previous four years) was exclusively tactical training - low level, affil, AAR, MRR etc. Route flights were very few and far between. However, the priniples of operating a large aircraft and its crew are the same whether you're at 250ft (or lower...!) or FL400. You do get to use the autopilot a tad more in an Airbus, though!

As for Virgin's crewing situation; we are a bit short of captains at the moment because the training system (for various reasons) didn't initially manage to increase its output sufficiently to cope with the current rate of expansion. That is being dealt with. There is no similar problem with FOs, and new guys are coming on line at the required rate. I have no reason to believe that there will be any problems with, or due to, the Sydney route.

Thanks Sgroggs/Guys for all the input.

I would really like to get a general idea of how you feel about the flying. I presently do about 8 sectors a week (operating half of them). This is clearly different to the Virgin pilot's role, and I wondered if you get used to the lack of handling/ very long sectors.

With regard to commuting, do guys generally shuttle the morning of their flight (on a standyby basis?), or is their a need to travel down the day before (much less time at home).

Scroggs, you have mentioned that the average days at home per month is 10-12. Does this include rest days etc, or is this days purely in the country.

How do you get on with taking partners on trips, is it generally a safe bet for them getting back?

Lastly (for now), I know it is asking a bit, but do you know how I could get sight of any rosters? This would be superb.

Thanks again

FD

FD - it all depends on your attitude to flying. When I had 2 500 hours I was still very much in Biggles mode and would have hated long-haul. Now that I'm older, wiser and lazier it suits me just fine. Only you know how you'll react to 1 landing a month and plenty of relief sectors, no one else can tell you.

10 -12 days a month free of duty, with the new scheduling agreement it seems to be a bit more than that. On the 'Bus they tend to come in groups of 3 or 4 together, on the 400 I think the average is closer to 2. If you join soon you'll almost certainly be on the Bus.

Commuting depends on where you're coming from, how many fligths there are and what your check-in time is. The earliest checkin time is 0800, the latest 2100. The guys that commute don't seem to mind it, but I think you need to have a good reason for doing it to be able to justify it to yourself, because it can be a hassle. I would hate it, but then I have no reason to live anywhere else than where I do. If you're living on the area where you grew up, with family etc all around you then it'll probably be worth your while to stay there and put up with the commuting.

This is not a job for a flying enthusiast. Long haul sectors are, erm, long - and essentially boring. You'll get good at crosswords, reading (even the ops manuals are seen open on our flight decks!), small talk, looking out the window, etc, etc. You'll learn to live with one or two landings a month, and you can forget any demonstrations of flying prowess - it's all minimum handling and minimum risk stuff. You want to demonstrate how good you are at poling, get a share in an Extra 300 at the local flying club! Or join the RAF Reserve.

As for commuting, if you live somewhere that offers 5-10 flights daily to Heathrow, you may be able to justify travelling on the day of your flight. If there's only one or two flights daily from where you live, well, it's pretty obvious what you have to do.

Your time at home depends hugely on the kind of roster you have. If it's full of East Coast trips, you'll have up to six trips in the month and not a lot of time at home. If you have a Far East roster, you'll get away with three trips in the month and 17-18 days at home. Getting partners and friends away with you is not that straightforward; most trips these days are full. If you want to guarantee getting them home, you may be wise to buy (refundable) full-fare economy tickets. That said, it's fairly rare for flight deck companions to be left down route - but it's quite common for them not to get on the outbound flight!

Rosters: if I get time, I'll post or PM you a sample selection of rosters here next week - I'm away for the next few days.

Hi Guys, this is the first time I have posted on pprune.

I have quite frequently read the threads and questions posted about Virgin and read the very informative replies from Scroggs. I joined Virgin about 18 months ago on the B747-400 fleet from a short haul multi-sector company. I was a self improver and have no military experience.

I do not know scroggs and I guess that I am on the other fleet. I can say that I have agreed with most everything he has had to say about Virgin and its lifestyle and his responses are very fair, honest and balanced.

How has Virgin been for me? Well I have no real complaints about the company at all.

I joined at a time when the final stages of the recent pay/scheduling agreement was coming to a close. I can not comment about life before that but then I am sure you are not interested in that any way. My roster has been very stable. I have had no changes in the last year except for those which were induced by me by accepting some rest day working. That caused 3 roster changes due to the knock on effect. I have maintained an average of 4 trips a month and have usually got around 12 days off at home per month. Occasionally up to 15 and never as low as 10. On the B747-400 fleet our routes presently are in the main West bound so we do not suffer the East to West change in time zones. That of course may change.

On the subject of take home pay.. well I contribute the 6% to the pension and have received my first annual increment. My take home is around £2800. This has the potential to be quite a lot better over the next 12 months. In addition as Scroggs pointed out we receive our allowances down route in cash. How much of that you bring home is of course down to the individual. Sufficient to say that I have never had to put my hand in my own pocket down route and invariably bring home some cash after eating, drinking, entertainment and occasional gift. I don't sit in my room. Of course while I am away I am not dipping into my current account at home either.

As has been said before.. Long Haul flying is about lifestyle and not about flying. I don't think that I fully appreciated this before I started. You really should take this into account before applying to any long haul outfit. If you are into flying for the hands on then it may not be for you. Alternatively you can satisfy that element in your own time, as a lot of pilots do. The flying can be monotonous and on those rare occasions you fly with someone who is less than communicative can be quite painful. However, once you get your head round that then the lifestyle can be very enjoyable. I make sure that I do as much down route that I can, such as admin that I would do at home. Quite often in the cruise.
I try and enjoy my time down route such as diving in the caribbean. Most guys have a hobby that they can partake in be it training, skiing, sailing etc. It is not always a party! You will have to be prepared to do things alone on occasions. This was a bit of a shock for me at first.

The guys in the main are great but like everywhere, there is the odd one that you would prefer not to fly with. That's life!

Swapping trips is quite possible and is being made easier with a pilot contact directory.

Commuting can be an issue. As Scroggs said, people commute from a long way. I am only able to drive and quite often my Captain will be back in Paris, Nice, Brussels, Newcastle, Dublin or wherever else he may have appeared from before I have negotiated the M25 and for probably little cost. The girls also commute from far a field and do more trips than us on a lot less money so it is perfectly reasonable. I rarely stay the night before but on a particularly early flight I will stay at one of the hotels that we have an arrangement with for £30. Arriving late so I can spend as much time at home but avoid the traffic. That is in fact one of the big bonuses of long haul.. the ability to live pretty well where you like.

I have taken my partner and friends on trips on several occasions. Only once so far has she not got on. It can be difficult but if you pick your flights carefully, not that great a deal.

In essence, if you love your hands on flying and want to fly 5 days on the trot, 4 sectors a day and see the same piece of tarmac at the end of the day as the start. Virgin is definitely not for you. If you want a lifestyle career company then come to Virgin.

The pilot retention is very good so I guess that must say a lot about the company.

Anyhow, breakfast calls! (yes I am in a hotel right now on the East coast).

Downtown1994

Great post, and you have only succeeded in making me want to fly for Virgin even more.

Also coming from a short haul company, I have been knocking on their door for the last 2 years. With 3500 jet hours I am becoming rather eager.

Two questions for you mate. Were you a captain in previous company, and did you know someone on the inside of virgin.

I know several peeps who got into virgin, all were captains from my company. So I don't know whether I need some command time under my belt. And also all those that got in knew someone on the inside.

I guess I shall keep on trying.

ATIS..

In answer to your questions. Firstly, No I didn't have any command time. A command was iminent in my previous company so it was a tough decision to go.. but for me anyway, the right one. I had approximately 2500hrs on jets and 1500 hrs light aircraft experience. Mainly from instructing. A couple of guys from my company joined around the same time. One with command experience and one without. I have met quite a few new FO's over the past 18 months and there does not seem to be any hard set rules over who they recruit. In my oppinion you will not stand any better or worse chance with command experience or not. So you have every chance. The interview process seems to be largely focussed on getting the right personality.

It is difficult getting an interview I know. I don't know of any methods to increase your chances of being selected for interview. I guess the only advice I can give you is to 'pester gracefully'.


No, I didn't know of anyone in Virgin when I applied. That is not to say that it doesn't help. Virgin do not only take on people recommended by their mates. I believe that they take recommendations seriously though. It's a double edged sword getting sponsored though. You have to be sure that your sponsor's thoughts will be valued.

Good luck.

Downtown 1994,

You sound like someone decent, can you recommend me. Only joking, again thanks for the reply. Like you said I shall keep on persisting.

This makes for quite interesting reading. Scroggs and Downtown have basically described the lifestyle on longhaul in my company too (anyone who watches my posts will know where that is) but they write with a far more positive slant than my compatriots. From an outsider's point of view, VS certainly seems to be a pleasant place to work.

Would I be right in suggesting it's mainly because there is support from your fleet management, minimal internal politics and no-one from other departments constantly trying to get one over on Flight Ops?

Shame he didn't buy the Triple. :sad:

Hi there,

With regards to doing one or two landings per month, then how does it work in a 3 crew flight ( 1 Capt, 2 FO's ). For instance, outbound flight to LAX - Capt does take-off and landing in LAX. Return flight to LHR - then which FO does the take-off and landing?? Does it go by seniority or a toss of coin?

Oh Scroggs, looking forward to that sample selection of rosters, please post on here when you get the time. Cheers!!!!

Human Factor

I am not aware of which company you work for but I am can assure you that Virgin has it's fair share of people who would not speak positively about Virgin. I have worked for other companies and in other walks of life and I have come to the conclusion that some people are never happy unless they are complaining. Unfortunately those few tend to bring other people down to their level. I steer clear of politics and report only what I see and experience. The people that I see complaining are usually the same people who have been around for a long time and always include the old "This company is not what it used to be..." Show me a company that is! I can't comment on the way the company was.

P1

I reckon that I average about 3 landings a month on the Boeing. It really depends on your roster. If you have a roster which is filled with East coast trips then you wil probably do 4. On the 3 crew trips, which usually consist of a Captain and two FO's but occasionaly 2 Captains then it is a decision made in the briefing and done democraticaly. Usually the Captain will take a leg but again I have had trips when the Captain has given both legs away without having one himself. Quite often the decision will be easy as someone has just comeback off leave etc and require the landing. if all things are equal then a coin is used. If you are the cruise pilot then you will operate in the cruise one way and as PNF the other. It will usually mean that you are first in the bunk as well. If you live 20 mins from the airport then that can be a bit depressing as your not tired. For a commuter like myself... sometimes that is quite welcome.

A huge negative thing about doing so few landings is of course if you screw it up. Nothing is nicer than finishing off a good trip with a greaser and the odd compliment from the cabin crew. If you don't and you do a landing like I did in my line training where my fillings came out, then it can be a while before you can have another go and get your confidence back.

Hope that helps.

Politics exist in Virgin just as much as in any other airline. However, in general most in Virgin are aware that we are all on the same side and that what's good for the company can also be good for the individual. The company does make quite an effort to be a good employer, and, overall, succeeds quite well. There are, of course, bones of contention between the flight ops community and the bean-counters, but the argument that resulted in our pay deal convinced the company that the flight deck are intelligent, determined to contribute to the success of the company and equally determined to benefit from that success. The result is a much more positive working relationship than we had before.

As for landings, on the Airbus you can't really expect more than one or two a month - and, with the amount of training going on at the moment, it's going to be a struggle to get that many!

I think we'll just ignore DTP's sarcasm.

Does Virgin have any reciprical agreements for staff travel with any other major airlines ?

You can buy ID75/ID90 tickets on all major airlines, but as I'm not a user of Staff Travel at all (I travel for work, not pleasure!), I don't know what other deals there are.

Re Staff travel: Virgin is a member of www.gozed.com which gets you quite a few deals.

Scoggs and Downtown have described Virgin pretty accurately IMHO.

Sorry, what's an ID75/ID90? I'm guessing it's a type of standby ticket ? Just working the feasibility of commuting and working for a major airline like Virgin . . . . . ;)

You have to have 6 months from date of joining to get BA/BM shuttle tickets and 1 year for others.

You can also get on the web sites and pick up confirmed seats for much the same price some of the time.

Standby travel is a nightmare. BA will always try and get you on ,god bless them, but be aware that if a BA hostie turns up at the last minute, he/she has priority over you!. I have also been turfed out of my seat before now because some fat businessman wants to get an earlier flight, ie the one I've been sitting on.
Midland are hopeless for standby, especially ex LHR. They have a nasty habit of cancelling flights when not enough pax turn up, putting EMB 145's on the LHR-MAN run at the weekend and sending off half empty airbusses when there are staff waiting to get on.

Personally I now buy confirmed tickets off the net most of the time. The stress was killing me. Also I like to know that I can get home after an overnight flight and not spend all day waiting. Keep a couple of standbys handy in case of unforeseen delays and of course your standby month.

As for the hotels, £30 if you can get them, and yo can only book 2 weeks in advance. During the summer months, forget it.

As for costs, yes it is expensive but cheaper than a mortgage in the south. I've been doing it for two years and so far its worked with a few notable exceptions. The only way to make it easier for me would be a move to the Airbus fleet. (later check in times and only one flight ex LGW). One day I hope!.

Lots of people commute, and the subject is covered in one or more of the threads I linked to in my first post on this thread. As I find travelling a complete pain in the proverbial, I wouldn't do it - but I don't have the personal factors that make it a desirable option. On the other hand, I get the M25....!

Hello there Scroggs




-- now that you seem to be back in town, any chance of a few Airbus sample Rosters ??

Your posts re life in Virgin are hugely appreciated -- much of value and most useful : application lodged !

Hi there,

thank you guys for all the nice replies. Really helpfull!

Can anyone give a bit more information on what the "real" minimum requirments at the moment are for joining Virgin?

2500hrs does not seem realistic to me....

Being a UK company its only logical that most of the pilots are Britisch.....How difficult is it for other nationalities to get in ( off course nationalities with the right to live in the UK)

Thanks a lot,

G

There are alot of people applying with Airbus ratings at the moment, that seems as important as the hours at the present time. This allows the company to allocate quick courses to the A340.

There are quite a few non-British in Virgin, I can't think that would be a problem.

My 10 cents worth if it`s of any interest - I joined Virgin 11 years ago after the Dan Air debacle (I was an F/O on the 1-11 when it all fell apart), I did four years in the RHS with VS before managing to scramble over the centre console into the LHS on the 400. I can honestly say that it`s been an absolute ball since day one. Every trip has been an adventure and the new joiners I fly with now are every bit as brilliant and entertaining company as the people I joined with. In my humble opinion this is the best job in UK aviation.

Great post about Virgin. I have always been a big fan and I would love to join the 400 fleet some day in the distant future... A few questions:

1. What percentage of newhires are from Easy and Ryan?

2. If you have an A320 type and experience, will you "most likely" be allocated to the A340 fleet or is allocation random?

3. What is the likelihood of getting hired if you only have turboprop time (say Dash 8-400 time) vs. jet time? Does Virgin hire turboprop drivers (e.g., Flybe Dash or Eastern Airways Jetstream pilots) directly into the 400 or Airbus or do they want you to have jet time?

Hey Weather Report, having flown the Bac-111, do you ever miss the round dials and steam gauges vs. the glass equipment on the 400?

Cheers

LVL CHG I'll try to answer your questions:

1. Don't know - and I doubt the recruiters would release statistics. I've met a few ex-EZ coming on line recently, but no ex Ryans. That doesn't mean anything though - I don't get to meet all new pilots!

2. As the A320 to A340 conversion is pretty straightforward (read 'cheap'), it's pretty much a no-brainer. It's not unknown for Airbus peeps to go to the 744, but it's rare. And we haven't bought 26 new 744s......

3. We have hired people with only TP time in the past (in fact, I was one, to all intents and purposes!), but I can't comment on current policy until I've met a TP driver or two who've been through the latest procedures. I would have thought that experience of modern glass equipment was more relevant than whether or not your aeroplane had windmills on the front!

Entirely agree with Scroggs on his first two points.

Not so sure about TP time though. A friend tried to join us two years ago (about 5000hrs TP time, full ATPL, well known to several senior Captains). He was interviewed and asked to come back when he had some jet time. After two seasons with Sleazy he's now a Virgin.

Tried to assist another buddy (Ex RN rotary and loads of commercial TP time outside) earlier this year and they said they wouldn't even look at him until he obtained some jet time.

I suggest if you don't have the jet time you will be very low priority in the recruitment stakes - plenty of competition for places at the moment.

Of course it could all change very quickly if we cease to be a prefered employer.

Good luck:ok:

standby can be a nightmare ex man with both ba and bd, the lhr flights are pretty generally chocker these days and a lot of bd long haul crew and flight deck commute and get highest priority. we always do our best to get you away and down to check in on time. After 6months you will get access to zed tickets, but be aware ba have lowered their prices, but have started charging UB tax on their tickets! That can get very expensive and the 1415 ba to lhr is no longer so that pushes spare seats on bd to the minimum. Weekend mornings are bad on bd due to the embraers.
You can always drive when the going gets tough, not to bad going out, it's the return thats the killer!
hope this helps.

Where my workers are more important than you
 

I remember seeing an advertisement years ago with Richard Branson refering to Virgin Atlantic as "Where My Workers Are More Important Than You."

Excellent !

Unfortunately, my age most likely prohibits me from ever joining them; 50 and recently up-graded to LHS B 737.

I always thought Virgin would be the ultimate and I can see I wasn´t wrong. :ok:

First of all, nice one everybody, an excellent thread!

Anybody know of any Embraer skippers getting a look in? I meet the hous ok and have jet command time. To move to a Boeing or Airbus job and take a pay cut (move to RHS), or to wait? Any advise is appreciated!:confused:

Blue skies and Tailwinds

Checkthrust..

I assume you are on the ERJ..

I can't specifically answer your question regarding Embraer Captains, but I can tell you that I know of at least 2 ex- CRJ Captains who have joined us over the last year. One at least had only CRJ experience.

As has been previously stated, it's jet time and more importantly it's glass. As the ERJ and CRJ are broadly similair then you should be right in the ball park.

Good luck.