Swiss Discrimination
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Ettore
Ettore ,
Just for your info. ,the working contracts were changed the other way around ,initially the ex-Crossair pilots had a LIMITED two year contract and at the begining of 2001 the company offered them an UNLIMITED contract, to keep the foreigners (including non E.U.) flying there.
And then the managment said that somebody" forgot" to inform the goverment about this and therefore the residence permits that were issued based on the initial two year contract were not renewed.
Just for your info. ,the working contracts were changed the other way around ,initially the ex-Crossair pilots had a LIMITED two year contract and at the begining of 2001 the company offered them an UNLIMITED contract, to keep the foreigners (including non E.U.) flying there.
And then the managment said that somebody" forgot" to inform the goverment about this and therefore the residence permits that were issued based on the initial two year contract were not renewed.
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Sorry, what I meant to say was the original two year permits were renewed.
It was for another 18th months after the original 2 year permit.
ONLY because Crossair/Swiss really NEEDED these pilots at this time.
Funny how Crossair/Swiss got what they wanted when they asked.
It was for another 18th months after the original 2 year permit.
ONLY because Crossair/Swiss really NEEDED these pilots at this time.
Funny how Crossair/Swiss got what they wanted when they asked.
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Snoopy2 ,
The permits were renewed on 1 year basis ,the first renewal was done problemless ,but for the second one everything started ,and they gave the last renewal until July 31st.
And yes they get what ever they want by doing what ever it takes; does not matter if is legal or not.
The permits were renewed on 1 year basis ,the first renewal was done problemless ,but for the second one everything started ,and they gave the last renewal until July 31st.
And yes they get what ever they want by doing what ever it takes; does not matter if is legal or not.
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Ettore
cmx
You speak the language!!!!!
It does not completely matter what the permit story is, the end result is DISRIMINATION!!!!! Discrimination amongst the same corps. My friends who come from the same (foreign) country as I do, will get a HUGE difference in money. Question which the management WON'T answer, is the rest of the benefits which was in discussion more than a year ago, cannot be rectified, or clarified!! And remains UNANSWERED!!!!! There is always the blame from the one to the other: if it is not the Union, then it is management, and vice versa.
The book:" Living and working in Switzerland" clearly points out Swiss discrimination to foreigners, in ALL respects.
Is this different now???? Look at previous writers in this forum for the history!!!!
cmx
You speak the language!!!!!
It does not completely matter what the permit story is, the end result is DISRIMINATION!!!!! Discrimination amongst the same corps. My friends who come from the same (foreign) country as I do, will get a HUGE difference in money. Question which the management WON'T answer, is the rest of the benefits which was in discussion more than a year ago, cannot be rectified, or clarified!! And remains UNANSWERED!!!!! There is always the blame from the one to the other: if it is not the Union, then it is management, and vice versa.
The book:" Living and working in Switzerland" clearly points out Swiss discrimination to foreigners, in ALL respects.
Is this different now???? Look at previous writers in this forum for the history!!!!
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Xenophobic Swiss
The bottom line is that typical Swiss Xenophobia has triumphed once again! How the hell would the Swiss people feel if every other country's airlines or companies started retrenchments by getting rid of Swiss nationals first? (Not a bad idea actually!) 
More than 19% of the Swiss population are employed abroad. Now that would create a smell we're accustomed to experiencing in the boardrooms of Swissair!
As for looking in my own backyard Mr MDWhatever: Switzerland is in my backyard! And it is very clearly documented what was the Swiss people's involvement in the War and more specifically The Nazi Party. Numerous unresolved court cases against Swiss companies and the Swiss government continue as we argue, with respect to returning stolen monies and properties to the rightful, dead, Jewish owners.
I too work for a Swiss owned company. And I am sickened by the blatant, outspoken racist opinions of my Swiss colleagues! The resolution of the foreigner issue at Swiss is just another display of what a sick society Switzerland has produced!
More than 19% of the Swiss population are employed abroad. Now that would create a smell we're accustomed to experiencing in the boardrooms of Swissair! As for looking in my own backyard Mr MDWhatever: Switzerland is in my backyard!
And it is very clearly documented what was the Swiss people's involvement in the War and more specifically The Nazi Party. Numerous unresolved court cases against Swiss companies and the Swiss government continue as we argue, with respect to returning stolen monies and properties to the rightful, dead, Jewish owners.I too work for a Swiss owned company. And I am sickened by the blatant, outspoken racist opinions of my Swiss colleagues! The resolution of the foreigner issue at Swiss is just another display of what a sick society Switzerland has produced!
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I just hope that one day one of our swiss "collegues" can explain why a pilot with a B-permit is worth less than another one .If it is not discriminatory and xenophobic ,I will have to go through the dictionary once more and try to find a new meaning for those words .
Can you FlyMD ?
Can you FlyMD ?
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With all due respect to the handfull of Swiss people that do not conform to the xenophobic Swiss stereotype; there's an old English adage that says: Where there's smoke, there's fire. Take a look through some of the older threads on this website and see if you can count how many times this exact topic has come up? The Swiss have been accused of being racists since long before I was born. My very own experience of working, socialising and associating with them, backs up this theory completely.
Mr FlyMD, you can call me what you like, you can accuse me of whatever charges you may contrive but, you can never hide the fact that thousands of jews went to the gas chambers directly after being turned away from the Swiss borders and handed over to the Nazis!
Mr FlyMD, you can call me what you like, you can accuse me of whatever charges you may contrive but, you can never hide the fact that thousands of jews went to the gas chambers directly after being turned away from the Swiss borders and handed over to the Nazis!
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cmx,
Having put 126.9 on my "ignore" list, I might not be up to the very latest mud-slinging on this thread.
To answer your post, however:
1. I was not trying to say that those pilots put from a full-time to a limited contract were being treated fairly, so you are certainly right to talk about discrimination.
2. Any bad management, and the Crossair/Swiss management is certainly bad, will attack the weakest link of a chain... In this instance, it was the foreign pilot, not because they were foreign, but because they were vulnerable. The fact that only a handful of those pilots actually ever joined the union did not help, although in their situation I would not have joined either... So I respectfully submit than xenophobia is the wrong word.
3. I have grown up in this country, and although often living abroad, I continue to live here happily. Switzerland has the highest percentage of foreign-nationals of any nation I know. It also takes in the highest number of refugees in relation to it's size of any country I know. While we have our fair share of idiots and bigots, I simply refuse to acknowledge xenophobia as being more rampant in Switzerland than anywhere else, quite the contrary actually. I call it the way i see it, while accepting any differring opinion, as long as it stays above the belt-line (reason why Mr. 126.9 is on my "ignore" list.)
4. I did a brief 3-year stint at Swissair. Had I stayed on, I would now probably be facing dismissal. This in respect with my seniority number, not because of my passport. As I said before, number 1 to 8 on that list are Dutch, and they enjoy all the privileges that are due to them. Which is as it should be.
Greetings.
Having put 126.9 on my "ignore" list, I might not be up to the very latest mud-slinging on this thread.
To answer your post, however:
1. I was not trying to say that those pilots put from a full-time to a limited contract were being treated fairly, so you are certainly right to talk about discrimination.
2. Any bad management, and the Crossair/Swiss management is certainly bad, will attack the weakest link of a chain... In this instance, it was the foreign pilot, not because they were foreign, but because they were vulnerable. The fact that only a handful of those pilots actually ever joined the union did not help, although in their situation I would not have joined either... So I respectfully submit than xenophobia is the wrong word.
3. I have grown up in this country, and although often living abroad, I continue to live here happily. Switzerland has the highest percentage of foreign-nationals of any nation I know. It also takes in the highest number of refugees in relation to it's size of any country I know. While we have our fair share of idiots and bigots, I simply refuse to acknowledge xenophobia as being more rampant in Switzerland than anywhere else, quite the contrary actually. I call it the way i see it, while accepting any differring opinion, as long as it stays above the belt-line (reason why Mr. 126.9 is on my "ignore" list.)
4. I did a brief 3-year stint at Swissair. Had I stayed on, I would now probably be facing dismissal. This in respect with my seniority number, not because of my passport. As I said before, number 1 to 8 on that list are Dutch, and they enjoy all the privileges that are due to them. Which is as it should be.
Greetings.
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The Facts!
1. Foreign nationals employed at Swiss and resident in Switzerland based on B-Permits, were treated unfairly. For the exact facts on this matter see the termination package and it's applicability to those individuals concerned. Or even better; ask my 30 or so mates from South Africa, New Zealand, Australia etc. that have just returned home from Swiss!
2. The management at Swiss/Swissair has traditionally been bad. They managed to sink a perfectly workable company and then take Europes biggest success story (Crossair) and turn it into worthless sh!t. The ousting of Guru Moritz Suter, was just the beginning in the decline of Crossair at the hands of Swiss/Swissair Incompetence.
3. Switzerland employs around 18% of its workforce from abroad. Most of these are employed in the unskilled sector with about 8% coming in as qualified individuals on B-Permits. Of this group only around 2% will ever be allowed to remain permanently in Switzerland.
4. The nations accepting most refugees in Europe are, in order of numbers accepted, Great Britain, France, Germany, Italy, Holland, Spain... Switzerland I believe, was recently accused by Amnesty International of "...not playing an active role..." in the plight of the world's refugees.
5. Numbers 1 to eight on that list should be numbers 700 to 708 (or there about) since Crossair actually bought Swissair and not vice-versa! Do we need to be reminded that Swissair is Dead!
Ignore that!
2. The management at Swiss/Swissair has traditionally been bad. They managed to sink a perfectly workable company and then take Europes biggest success story (Crossair) and turn it into worthless sh!t. The ousting of Guru Moritz Suter, was just the beginning in the decline of Crossair at the hands of Swiss/Swissair Incompetence.
3. Switzerland employs around 18% of its workforce from abroad. Most of these are employed in the unskilled sector with about 8% coming in as qualified individuals on B-Permits. Of this group only around 2% will ever be allowed to remain permanently in Switzerland.
4. The nations accepting most refugees in Europe are, in order of numbers accepted, Great Britain, France, Germany, Italy, Holland, Spain... Switzerland I believe, was recently accused by Amnesty International of "...not playing an active role..." in the plight of the world's refugees.
5. Numbers 1 to eight on that list should be numbers 700 to 708 (or there about) since Crossair actually bought Swissair and not vice-versa! Do we need to be reminded that Swissair is Dead!
Ignore that!
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the facts 2
I have to say that my experience with swiss people on personal relation has been very good ,almost all the people that I treated on a social basis were very nice ,open and friendly.
But as well the other face of the system ,and here I include the business managment ,politics ,etc. is absolutely disgusting ,the B permits were treated with discrimination and xenophobia and that is something that nobody can deny .A little example besides the revoking of the B-permits,and not the working contracts which remained unlimited is the fact that we can not get the unemployement insurance after being discounted from our salaries every month for 3 years. That has a presise word which is STEALING ,just because our vulnerable position on account to our weak nationality and I am sorry to insist on the word but is no other than XENOPHOBIA.
Cheers.......
But as well the other face of the system ,and here I include the business managment ,politics ,etc. is absolutely disgusting ,the B permits were treated with discrimination and xenophobia and that is something that nobody can deny .A little example besides the revoking of the B-permits,and not the working contracts which remained unlimited is the fact that we can not get the unemployement insurance after being discounted from our salaries every month for 3 years. That has a presise word which is STEALING ,just because our vulnerable position on account to our weak nationality and I am sorry to insist on the word but is no other than XENOPHOBIA.
Cheers.......
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cmx,
I'm not sure I understand completely the last remark of your post... If my knowledge of applicable Swiss law serves me correctly, anyone who has worked more than 6 month on an unlimited contract is entitled to unemployment benefits... That this does not apply to a limited-term contract is self-evident, and the same everywhere, e.g. I had a 6-month contract in Bali, and that is how long my permit of stay was, which means I had no right to look for another job once this contract expired, and had to leave the country immediately. Can you tell me again just what your status was?? Tks
I'm not sure I understand completely the last remark of your post... If my knowledge of applicable Swiss law serves me correctly, anyone who has worked more than 6 month on an unlimited contract is entitled to unemployment benefits... That this does not apply to a limited-term contract is self-evident, and the same everywhere, e.g. I had a 6-month contract in Bali, and that is how long my permit of stay was, which means I had no right to look for another job once this contract expired, and had to leave the country immediately. Can you tell me again just what your status was?? Tks
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FlyMD ,
The contracts were unlimited ,what was not renewed was the B-permits ,because the company "forgot" to inform the goverment when they changed the contracts from limited(2 years) to unlimited.
So then the goverment said that they don't have to renew the permits cause were issued on the initial two years contract.
Funny isn't it
The contracts were unlimited ,what was not renewed was the B-permits ,because the company "forgot" to inform the goverment when they changed the contracts from limited(2 years) to unlimited.
So then the goverment said that they don't have to renew the permits cause were issued on the initial two years contract.
Funny isn't it
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Here is an interesting story about how nice Switzerland treats itīs foreigners... Conincidence ? I think not ! You want the full report ? Here it is !
Thatīs precisely the reason why Switzerland is a racist country !
Ask yourself the following question : "why were they vulnerable in the first place?"
They were vulerable because Switzerland is the only īcivilizedī country that gives temporary visas for foreigners and then kick them out as soon as there are not enough drug dealers coming to launder their money in this little Alpine Banana Republic!
Any bad management, and the Crossair/Swiss management is certainly bad, will attack the weakest link of a chain... In this instance, it was the foreign pilot, not because they were foreign, but because they were vulnerable.
Ask yourself the following question : "why were they vulnerable in the first place?"
They were vulerable because Switzerland is the only īcivilizedī country that gives temporary visas for foreigners and then kick them out as soon as there are not enough drug dealers coming to launder their money in this little Alpine Banana Republic!
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cmx,
so was it a 2-year contract, or an unlimited one???
To reiterate, I think you were "played" by a lousy management, not by the government... B-permit means you get to stay as long as your employer declares you have a working contract, same as in any country. Also to reiterate, most other countries are at least as stringent towards temporary permits, IF you get them in the first place. Have you tried working in France as a non-EU citizen? (just an example...)
R.Vesco:
Yes, we have idiots and racists, too... But to say it again, we have the highest per-capita amount of foreign nationals and refugees of any country, and the popular initiative last year (which I did not vote for) aimed at limiting the number of illegal entries, and promoted the fast deportation of "false" refugees having commited crimes in Switzerland... hardly the subject matter in this case.
In general, it seems that most people around the world have had a false, much to "clean" image of Switzerland for a long time, and now that they discover us as being a country with problems like everybody else, some people "love to hate us"... fine, enjoy yourselves, next year you'll be hating somebody else, the popular press of your country will tell you who in time...
so was it a 2-year contract, or an unlimited one???
To reiterate, I think you were "played" by a lousy management, not by the government... B-permit means you get to stay as long as your employer declares you have a working contract, same as in any country. Also to reiterate, most other countries are at least as stringent towards temporary permits, IF you get them in the first place. Have you tried working in France as a non-EU citizen? (just an example...)
R.Vesco:
Yes, we have idiots and racists, too... But to say it again, we have the highest per-capita amount of foreign nationals and refugees of any country, and the popular initiative last year (which I did not vote for) aimed at limiting the number of illegal entries, and promoted the fast deportation of "false" refugees having commited crimes in Switzerland... hardly the subject matter in this case.
In general, it seems that most people around the world have had a false, much to "clean" image of Switzerland for a long time, and now that they discover us as being a country with problems like everybody else, some people "love to hate us"... fine, enjoy yourselves, next year you'll be hating somebody else, the popular press of your country will tell you who in time...
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FlyMD ,
The initial contract was for 2 years ,after the training was completed ,they offered the unlimited contract that everybody signed.
Then the goverment didn't renew the permits because they said : "the company didn't inform us about the change of the two year contract to unlimited,so we don't have to renew the permits that were issued under the initial two years contract".
Do you understand the game????????
FlyMD,
Something else ,Yes I am now living in Spain as NON-EU citizen ,and aswell looking for a job with the same chances,salary,and contract of a spanish pilot.
Amazing isn't it???
The initial contract was for 2 years ,after the training was completed ,they offered the unlimited contract that everybody signed.
Then the goverment didn't renew the permits because they said : "the company didn't inform us about the change of the two year contract to unlimited,so we don't have to renew the permits that were issued under the initial two years contract".
Do you understand the game????????
FlyMD,
Something else ,Yes I am now living in Spain as NON-EU citizen ,and aswell looking for a job with the same chances,salary,and contract of a spanish pilot.
Amazing isn't it???
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I think this is deliberate act of dark and mean hearted Personnel Chief Lugenbull. All those mean people will be cursed and see them suffer in our life time.
overall vision of the entire team seems very unprofessional.eg:
They ordered Emb145 with HUGS and irs, paid millions extra for it, how are they going to justify the extra amount paid for the benefit. Actual use of HUGS has not paid off the cost incured and similarly irs use in European airspace was waste of money. After all these unnecessary investment they are now reverting back to Saab 2000 and return EMB 145 to manufacturer. I think a responsile management should never toss off staff like that and waste money to the extend the company collapses, or did they think after all its swiss taxpayers money?
overall vision of the entire team seems very unprofessional.eg:
They ordered Emb145 with HUGS and irs, paid millions extra for it, how are they going to justify the extra amount paid for the benefit. Actual use of HUGS has not paid off the cost incured and similarly irs use in European airspace was waste of money. After all these unnecessary investment they are now reverting back to Saab 2000 and return EMB 145 to manufacturer. I think a responsile management should never toss off staff like that and waste money to the extend the company collapses, or did they think after all its swiss taxpayers money?