British Airways,fleet and seniority
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British Airways,fleet and seniority
Hi,
hoping people can help with a few questions I have.
Do all pilots on entry to BA start off on the 32X +757/767 families?Is there a set pattern of RHS 320 or 757/767 family,followed by RHS on either the 772 or 744 followed by starting off on the LHS of the short-haul fleet again?Or is more of a first come,first served system?
How long on average,does it take to reach command with BA?
Thanks,D10
hoping people can help with a few questions I have.
Do all pilots on entry to BA start off on the 32X +757/767 families?Is there a set pattern of RHS 320 or 757/767 family,followed by RHS on either the 772 or 744 followed by starting off on the LHS of the short-haul fleet again?Or is more of a first come,first served system?
How long on average,does it take to reach command with BA?
Thanks,D10
Here's a simplified answer to a complex question.
There are over 3000 pilots in BA with the newest (or most junior) at seniority number 3264. The most senior is, of course, at number 1 and we are all in sequence between. My own number is in the low 600's having worked here for 18 years. Each year the seniority numbers are recalculated totake into account those who have retired or left - I expect to move about 180 places next year putting me just below seniority number 500.
So new pilots joining BA start at the end of the list on the fleet that they are allocated to at the time. This depends on which fleet needs to recruit and whether the pilot is a TEP (cadet) or DEP (experienced). Cadets would normally be posted to the RHS of either the Airbus 319/320 or the 737 - usually at LGW. A DEP with heavy jet experience would go to RHS on 777 or 747.
Once in place, a new pilot is frozen in that position for 5 years. He can still bid to change seats or types each year but is likely to be ignored. Once the freeze is over a bid for a change might be achieved but flying hours need to be over 3500 for command and the longhaul commands tend to be very senior so patience is needed.
There are no restrictions about short to long haul or vice versa but there are experience level restrictions which tend to mean a first move from co-pilot to Captain would be on a shorthaul type....
There are over 3000 pilots in BA with the newest (or most junior) at seniority number 3264. The most senior is, of course, at number 1 and we are all in sequence between. My own number is in the low 600's having worked here for 18 years. Each year the seniority numbers are recalculated totake into account those who have retired or left - I expect to move about 180 places next year putting me just below seniority number 500.
So new pilots joining BA start at the end of the list on the fleet that they are allocated to at the time. This depends on which fleet needs to recruit and whether the pilot is a TEP (cadet) or DEP (experienced). Cadets would normally be posted to the RHS of either the Airbus 319/320 or the 737 - usually at LGW. A DEP with heavy jet experience would go to RHS on 777 or 747.
Once in place, a new pilot is frozen in that position for 5 years. He can still bid to change seats or types each year but is likely to be ignored. Once the freeze is over a bid for a change might be achieved but flying hours need to be over 3500 for command and the longhaul commands tend to be very senior so patience is needed.
There are no restrictions about short to long haul or vice versa but there are experience level restrictions which tend to mean a first move from co-pilot to Captain would be on a shorthaul type....
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Not meaning to "disagree" with ETOPS, partly another PoV, partly where I differ with him, partly filling in what's missed:
<<Do all pilots on entry to BA start off on the 32X +757/767 families?>>
As ETOPS said - A32x LHR for most 'cadets' (TEPs in BA speak) - or 737 LGW. Some have been via BACX with recent turmoil.. and some now going 757/767.
Experienced "DEPs" can go anywhere, from the above fleets, to LH, depending on choice / luck / timing / types on licence.
<<Is there a set pattern of RHS 320 or 757/767 family,followed by RHS on either the 772 or 744 followed by starting off on the LHS of the short-haul fleet again?>>
IMHO, not really - and certainly not before the new Pay Deal. There are stuck in the wool SH pilots, and same LH - who would forego a SH command to stay P2 LH until a LH P1 slot came to their seniority. The new Pay Deal has altered the finances of this, and there has a been a great "equalling" of the seniority required to gain any command - be it C744, or C737 LGW. This may well be "temporary" as everyone adjusts to the new Pay Deal - I suspect it will go back to quite different seniorities required once the musical chairs has occurred in, say 2-4 years.
<<How long on average,does it take to reach command with BA?>>
I have been in BA less than 7 years, and just achieved a SH LHR command. Lucky with repect to the new Pay Deal... When I joined, a SH LHR command was taking nearly 20 years - 2 years later it was 10, and I made it in 6.5. Over these years, a LGW 737 command could be made in 1-2 years if you had the hours. The new Pay Deal has immediately increased that probably to 10 (?), even for 737 LGW. The future - who knows?
<<There are no restrictions about short to long haul or vice versa but there are experience level restrictions which tend to mean a first move from co-pilot to Captain would be on a shorthaul type....>>
Slightly disagree with ETOPS here. The only experience levels I know of in BA are for P2 LH (need ATPL for Pi/c in Heavy crewing), and command for any fleet. Years needed for SH v LH command come down to seniority, not experience.
NoD
<<Do all pilots on entry to BA start off on the 32X +757/767 families?>>
As ETOPS said - A32x LHR for most 'cadets' (TEPs in BA speak) - or 737 LGW. Some have been via BACX with recent turmoil.. and some now going 757/767.
Experienced "DEPs" can go anywhere, from the above fleets, to LH, depending on choice / luck / timing / types on licence.
<<Is there a set pattern of RHS 320 or 757/767 family,followed by RHS on either the 772 or 744 followed by starting off on the LHS of the short-haul fleet again?>>
IMHO, not really - and certainly not before the new Pay Deal. There are stuck in the wool SH pilots, and same LH - who would forego a SH command to stay P2 LH until a LH P1 slot came to their seniority. The new Pay Deal has altered the finances of this, and there has a been a great "equalling" of the seniority required to gain any command - be it C744, or C737 LGW. This may well be "temporary" as everyone adjusts to the new Pay Deal - I suspect it will go back to quite different seniorities required once the musical chairs has occurred in, say 2-4 years.
<<How long on average,does it take to reach command with BA?>>
I have been in BA less than 7 years, and just achieved a SH LHR command. Lucky with repect to the new Pay Deal... When I joined, a SH LHR command was taking nearly 20 years - 2 years later it was 10, and I made it in 6.5. Over these years, a LGW 737 command could be made in 1-2 years if you had the hours. The new Pay Deal has immediately increased that probably to 10 (?), even for 737 LGW. The future - who knows?
<<There are no restrictions about short to long haul or vice versa but there are experience level restrictions which tend to mean a first move from co-pilot to Captain would be on a shorthaul type....>>
Slightly disagree with ETOPS here. The only experience levels I know of in BA are for P2 LH (need ATPL for Pi/c in Heavy crewing), and command for any fleet. Years needed for SH v LH command come down to seniority, not experience.
NoD
Last edited by NigelOnDraft; 9th Jun 2003 at 06:33.
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NigelOnDraft ,
Who benefited most from the new pay deal, was it equal, or are there some that are significantly better off ? ?
There seems to be alot of rumour / extrapolations about the way it worked !
Can you simplify it ?!!!
Who benefited most from the new pay deal, was it equal, or are there some that are significantly better off ? ?
There seems to be alot of rumour / extrapolations about the way it worked !
Can you simplify it ?!!!
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Anti-Ice...
<<Who benefited most from the new pay deal, was it equal, or are there some that are significantly better off ? ? >>
Over the long term, most should be significantly better off... However, that of course relies on this new structure staying in place long enough for some to see those benefits.
In the short term, junior-medium Capts probably do best, but then these were the ones most "below" the Benchmarks - particularly junior LH Capts.
Of more concern right now are the areas where individuals did not do well, particularly in the short term. There was a protection mechanism put in place, but it was 1 year only... We'll see what (if anything) is done to address this over the next discussion...
<<Can you simplify it ?!!!>>
The new system is remarkably simple. But since the old system was equally remarkably complex, trying to simplify who "won" and "lost" is too difficult to establish without a lot of work...
NoD
<<Who benefited most from the new pay deal, was it equal, or are there some that are significantly better off ? ? >>
Over the long term, most should be significantly better off... However, that of course relies on this new structure staying in place long enough for some to see those benefits.
In the short term, junior-medium Capts probably do best, but then these were the ones most "below" the Benchmarks - particularly junior LH Capts.
Of more concern right now are the areas where individuals did not do well, particularly in the short term. There was a protection mechanism put in place, but it was 1 year only... We'll see what (if anything) is done to address this over the next discussion...
<<Can you simplify it ?!!!>>
The new system is remarkably simple. But since the old system was equally remarkably complex, trying to simplify who "won" and "lost" is too difficult to establish without a lot of work...
NoD
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744
I am also a student (hopefully about to start for Frozen ATPL in September). It is sort of a life-long ambition of mine to fly 744's for BA and I was just wondering how long it takes to get there?
Thanks
Matt Avery
Thanks
Matt Avery
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Matt...
Crystal ball stuff, but in theory:
1. Get frozen ATPL.
2. Join BA - go into RHS on a SH fleet.
3. You have an "engagement freeze" of 5 years - could then get P744.
4. If there is some necessary large scale movement between fleets, then your engagement freeze may get waived at some point. Then P744 is available from whenever this occurs, and you have unfrozen your ATPL.
Good luck!
NoD
Crystal ball stuff, but in theory:
1. Get frozen ATPL.
2. Join BA - go into RHS on a SH fleet.
3. You have an "engagement freeze" of 5 years - could then get P744.
4. If there is some necessary large scale movement between fleets, then your engagement freeze may get waived at some point. Then P744 is available from whenever this occurs, and you have unfrozen your ATPL.
Good luck!
NoD
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Matt...
Its all in my earlier reply...
1. Getting the Frozen ATPL is all in your control (well - and your Bank Managers)
2. As and when BA recruit / advertise is in the hands of the Gods.
3. When they do, passing the application and Interview Stages is up to you.
4. Having started with BA, no reason why in your 5th year you do not go RHS 744 - could be quicker, but don't count on it.
"Trying really hard" counts for 1 & 3 above. Thereafter its luck and just "bidding" for it....
NoD
Its all in my earlier reply...
1. Getting the Frozen ATPL is all in your control (well - and your Bank Managers)
2. As and when BA recruit / advertise is in the hands of the Gods.
3. When they do, passing the application and Interview Stages is up to you.
4. Having started with BA, no reason why in your 5th year you do not go RHS 744 - could be quicker, but don't count on it.
"Trying really hard" counts for 1 & 3 above. Thereafter its luck and just "bidding" for it....
NoD
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MattUK
If you get into BA then expect to get on 744 in 5 years, you may be lucky and get straight onto it if you're a DEP within enough hours. Likelihood is you will get it when your freeze is up, if they're short on the fleet then they'll unfreeze you.
If you get into BA then expect to get on 744 in 5 years, you may be lucky and get straight onto it if you're a DEP within enough hours. Likelihood is you will get it when your freeze is up, if they're short on the fleet then they'll unfreeze you.
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As already said 'seniority is everything' in BA, their is a LOT of luck how 'the list' looks when you join and how many older people lie ahead of you and will retire before you do.
I joined early 30's as a DEP and will retire at age 55 with a seniority of around 1150, maybe just enough to be a very junior long haul Capt. in my last year or so.
Other airlines I have worked for seniority only mattered for time to command, BUT in BA becuase of the 'bidline' system for rosters it makes a huge difference to your lifestyle, where you fly to and what days off you get (being junior expect to work every weekend).
I joined early 30's as a DEP and will retire at age 55 with a seniority of around 1150, maybe just enough to be a very junior long haul Capt. in my last year or so.
Other airlines I have worked for seniority only mattered for time to command, BUT in BA becuase of the 'bidline' system for rosters it makes a huge difference to your lifestyle, where you fly to and what days off you get (being junior expect to work every weekend).
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From another thread (about BMed) it sounds as though the 'hold' pool has been disbanded!
Draw your own conclusions!
With 140plus mainline jobs given away in the regions, it could take quite a while, even with BA's prodigious retirement figures, to catch up with the shrinkage!
My advice? Find someone much better to work for.
Particularly if you aren't in your first flush of youth!
Draw your own conclusions!
With 140plus mainline jobs given away in the regions, it could take quite a while, even with BA's prodigious retirement figures, to catch up with the shrinkage!
My advice? Find someone much better to work for.
Particularly if you aren't in your first flush of youth!
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BA DEP Recruitment
Latest rumour is later this year but it's all meaningless until you read the ad in Flight Int'l/on the BA website. ZFT only is also rumoured (ie they have to be able to train you to type rating without base trg on an actual aeroplane which would exclude ex-FJ types etc - so hope they don't apply this OR YOU MIGHT HAVE TO BUY OWN TR/IR...). However, things are far more reactively managed by BA than pre-9/11 so if youi're interested you need to figure out : 1. Manning requirement for Summer 04 flypro vs retirements due, 2. No of TEP cadets/hold pool pilots still outstanding for trg cses, 3. Whether Jesus, Allah, Moses, Jehovah or Buddha had a more accurate version of events than The Daily Mail. May your God go with you... 
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Noblues,
Just getting back to the original thread about seniority...
I am also fortunate enough to work for the golden runways and I agree with your comments. Being very junior I can concur that seniority is everything. That said the Carmen system which operates at Gatwick seems a little more equitable than Bidline at Heathrow. You get a percentage of what you want based on your position in the seniority list.
Minimum is 40% 'Satisfaction' for guys like me, up to 80% for SkyGods
As a slight aside: How did you figure out your retirement seniority number? Is there a computer programme to calculate it?
LFw
Just getting back to the original thread about seniority...
I am also fortunate enough to work for the golden runways and I agree with your comments. Being very junior I can concur that seniority is everything. That said the Carmen system which operates at Gatwick seems a little more equitable than Bidline at Heathrow. You get a percentage of what you want based on your position in the seniority list.
Minimum is 40% 'Satisfaction' for guys like me, up to 80% for SkyGods
As a slight aside: How did you figure out your retirement seniority number? Is there a computer programme to calculate it?
LFw
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Sorry for the late reply, I have been away on a trip.
You guess is as good as mine but to repeat what I was told by BA in May it is expected to start moving towards the end of the year.
You guess is as good as mine but to repeat what I was told by BA in May it is expected to start moving towards the end of the year.
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Lost For Words - Re. working out your seniority at retirement .... Easybid (mainline bid program) will draw you a graph of your seniority against years.
Or their are plenty of bar graphs of the number of retirements floating around to work it out from.
Dora - I heard from the person in charge of fleet promotions/bids that BA will recruit DEP's towards the end of 2003 or early 2004, and direct onto long haul fleets with priority to type rated people (777 744).
Beware of what they offer you at interview - I was told long haul fleets, ended up in a holding pool for 2 years, reinterviewed after 1.5 years, took the first thing they offered which was Airbus, am now fleet frozen for 5 years on an expanding fleet with no chance of long haul if they recruit DEP (like I was) direct onto long haul .... aaaaahhh !
Its number on the list at BA that counts, take the first thing they offer assuming it has wings (although a midland capt. friend of mine taken on as a DEP spent his 1st 6 months on 'printer duty' at checkin area straight after 911 ).
Lost for words - Yeah, Carmen system at LGW is maybe a less totatly seniority driven system to mainline bidline .....
Or their are plenty of bar graphs of the number of retirements floating around to work it out from.
Dora - I heard from the person in charge of fleet promotions/bids that BA will recruit DEP's towards the end of 2003 or early 2004, and direct onto long haul fleets with priority to type rated people (777 744).
Beware of what they offer you at interview - I was told long haul fleets, ended up in a holding pool for 2 years, reinterviewed after 1.5 years, took the first thing they offered which was Airbus, am now fleet frozen for 5 years on an expanding fleet with no chance of long haul if they recruit DEP (like I was) direct onto long haul .... aaaaahhh !
Its number on the list at BA that counts, take the first thing they offer assuming it has wings (although a midland capt. friend of mine taken on as a DEP spent his 1st 6 months on 'printer duty' at checkin area straight after 911 ).
Lost for words - Yeah, Carmen system at LGW is maybe a less totatly seniority driven system to mainline bidline .....