Easyjet
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Easyjet
I've heard of pay for training..and I've heard of signing a training bond, but easyjet's got a great scam going. Their "type rating sponsorship scheme" has you paying for training AND signing a 5 year bond. You have to get a loan for £23,000 which they pay back over 5 years, but then they pay you £25,000 less over the same 5 years than someone who already had an endorsement. And if you leave early you're stuck with the loan payments too. In effect, you pay £25,000 for your type rating. I don't know who does their training but I can get a 737 rating for 1/5th of that. But they won't let you do that. You have to do the training with them. Great scam
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nice-beaver,
Do you agree that backseat-flyers facts are correct? If so, are you saying that it is a good and fair policy? No surprise that there seems to be a lot of resentment within ej. Can't be good to be employed by somebody who will squeeze your bollocks just cuz they can.
Do you agree that backseat-flyers facts are correct? If so, are you saying that it is a good and fair policy? No surprise that there seems to be a lot of resentment within ej. Can't be good to be employed by somebody who will squeeze your bollocks just cuz they can.
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Is it fair? It is if the person signs the contract. If you don't think it's fair don't apply or sign the contract.
There are 3 ways into my company. DEP with 1500hrs or more with some of that time on jets or heavy turboprops, the scheme we are talking about and a cadet scheme.
The scheme we are talking about is for people with some commercial experience but not a lot (minimum of 500hrs) and therefore a training risk to the company. Now the company could say, well let's not bother with them and only recruit experienced pilots but they obviously see the need for low houred guys to vary the experience levels. Should only be fair that the candidate shoulder some of the risk. There are benefits too....
The Worlds Favourite airline won't look at you until you have 1500hrs with the types they are looking for. At least eJ are giving opportunities to less experienced pilots. Ok BA won't bond you but then again they £5.1 billion in debt.
After all in the current climate eJ are not having difficulty getting pilots, this may change but I'm more than happy that my employer is at least giving opportunities to less experienced pilots and as a shareholder not risking the company £££.
If you don't like eJ's policy then wait till you've got 1500 hours with the applicable experience.
There are 3 ways into my company. DEP with 1500hrs or more with some of that time on jets or heavy turboprops, the scheme we are talking about and a cadet scheme.
The scheme we are talking about is for people with some commercial experience but not a lot (minimum of 500hrs) and therefore a training risk to the company. Now the company could say, well let's not bother with them and only recruit experienced pilots but they obviously see the need for low houred guys to vary the experience levels. Should only be fair that the candidate shoulder some of the risk. There are benefits too....
The Worlds Favourite airline won't look at you until you have 1500hrs with the types they are looking for. At least eJ are giving opportunities to less experienced pilots. Ok BA won't bond you but then again they £5.1 billion in debt.
After all in the current climate eJ are not having difficulty getting pilots, this may change but I'm more than happy that my employer is at least giving opportunities to less experienced pilots and as a shareholder not risking the company £££.
If you don't like eJ's policy then wait till you've got 1500 hours with the applicable experience.
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nice beaver: I didn't apply. If this is how EJ attracts new hires I can only imagine how they treat you once you've given them your money and can't leave without serious financial hardship. I don't mind training bonds. I don't agree with pay for training, although some people don't mind it. To expect you to pay for your own training AND sign a training bond however, is ridiculous.
Clear right: This is for a senior FO position. I have plenty of experience. Far more than 1500 hours. I just don't have a 737 endorsement. EJ says on their website that should you fail to qualify you will be reimbursed the £23,000 less £5,000. Makes it sound like the training really only costs £5,000.
EJ isn't offering jobs to non-type rated people out of the goodness of their heart. If they could find enough 737 endorsed people to fill their needs, they'd take only them. With the current system, they probably make money of the guys who pay for training. It doesn't cost £25,000 for training, yet that's what they reduce your pay by. I'd be more than willing to guarantee my services to the company for a certain length of time in exchange for training. But to pay for my own training and STILL have to guarantee my services? No thanks. Especially with no guarantees from the company. In exchange for my money and my 5 year committment I get the following promise from the company (quoted from their website):
"Our commitment to you is that you will have the chance to join the most exciting airline in Europe - with tremendous career prospects."
For £23,000 cash up front and 5 years of reduced salary I'd think something like the following would be more appropriate:
"As a senior FO, should you satisfactorily complete your training and all base checks, we committ to upgrading you to captain within {x amount of time}. Should market forces change, making an upgrade impossible, we will immediately pay off the remaining portion of your loan and advance you to the full senior FO pay scale. In addition you will be released from your 5 year commitment to the company."
Clear right: This is for a senior FO position. I have plenty of experience. Far more than 1500 hours. I just don't have a 737 endorsement. EJ says on their website that should you fail to qualify you will be reimbursed the £23,000 less £5,000. Makes it sound like the training really only costs £5,000.
EJ isn't offering jobs to non-type rated people out of the goodness of their heart. If they could find enough 737 endorsed people to fill their needs, they'd take only them. With the current system, they probably make money of the guys who pay for training. It doesn't cost £25,000 for training, yet that's what they reduce your pay by. I'd be more than willing to guarantee my services to the company for a certain length of time in exchange for training. But to pay for my own training and STILL have to guarantee my services? No thanks. Especially with no guarantees from the company. In exchange for my money and my 5 year committment I get the following promise from the company (quoted from their website):
"Our commitment to you is that you will have the chance to join the most exciting airline in Europe - with tremendous career prospects."
For £23,000 cash up front and 5 years of reduced salary I'd think something like the following would be more appropriate:
"As a senior FO, should you satisfactorily complete your training and all base checks, we committ to upgrading you to captain within {x amount of time}. Should market forces change, making an upgrade impossible, we will immediately pay off the remaining portion of your loan and advance you to the full senior FO pay scale. In addition you will be released from your 5 year commitment to the company."
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Clear Right,
The website states the following:
>>Please note that there is only a limited number of spaces this year through our Direct Entry Scheme and the majority of positions will be available through our TRSS scheme.<<
I am out of work (voluntarily) with B737-300 command experience. easyJet offered me a job a couple of years ago but, for personal reasons. I turned them down.
I have re-applied, had a recommendation from within the airline, and been to Roadshows. There has been no interest.
Can I do anything to further my application or is their a policy against pilots who didn't take a job previously?
Thanks for any reply.
The website states the following:
>>Please note that there is only a limited number of spaces this year through our Direct Entry Scheme and the majority of positions will be available through our TRSS scheme.<<
I am out of work (voluntarily) with B737-300 command experience. easyJet offered me a job a couple of years ago but, for personal reasons. I turned them down.
I have re-applied, had a recommendation from within the airline, and been to Roadshows. There has been no interest.
Can I do anything to further my application or is their a policy against pilots who didn't take a job previously?
Thanks for any reply.
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Backseat.
The £25000 comes off your gross salary. So in effect you can subtract %40. That makes it £15000 in which case its not far from the cost of a regular type rating. Now for most people who are applying they are getting an increased salary straight away, even after the gross subtraction. So they are better off. You dont have to pay upfront.
Depends how keen you are really but Ryanairs deal is significantly worse and the quality of the training you would receive at easyjet is second to none.
If you are not prepared to make that sort of commitment at such an early time in your career then dont apply. We probably don't want you anyway. Go and work for someone else, its horses for courses and if easy don't suit you there is no need to publicly complain about it. In fact its boring.
NG
The £25000 comes off your gross salary. So in effect you can subtract %40. That makes it £15000 in which case its not far from the cost of a regular type rating. Now for most people who are applying they are getting an increased salary straight away, even after the gross subtraction. So they are better off. You dont have to pay upfront.
Depends how keen you are really but Ryanairs deal is significantly worse and the quality of the training you would receive at easyjet is second to none.
If you are not prepared to make that sort of commitment at such an early time in your career then dont apply. We probably don't want you anyway. Go and work for someone else, its horses for courses and if easy don't suit you there is no need to publicly complain about it. In fact its boring.
NG
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The cost of fully training a non-type rated pilot to be ready for flying on the line varies from around £25,000 to £30,000 depending on experience because it also costs the company money for line training, base training, SEP's,...
For a pilot with more than 1500hrs and appropriate experience, you do not join the scheme mentioned above but a more straight forward bond.
B757type rated, I have heard of similar cases than yours unfortunately I don't know what would be best for you to be noticed in order to get an interview maybe NG can help you out with that one...
For a pilot with more than 1500hrs and appropriate experience, you do not join the scheme mentioned above but a more straight forward bond.
B757type rated, I have heard of similar cases than yours unfortunately I don't know what would be best for you to be noticed in order to get an interview maybe NG can help you out with that one...
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Hi Springbok449,
You said that "For a pilot with more than 1500hrs and appropriate experience, you do not join the scheme mentioned above but a more straight forward bond."
Not entirely true, as on their website they say that : "Senior First Officers (SFO's) have an unfrozen ATPL with a minimum of 1500 hours total time, with a portion of that time being on heavy turboprops or medium to heavy commercial jets. For SFO's there are 2 ways to join the airline: our Direct Entry Scheme and our Type Rating Sponsorship Scheme (TRSS)."
I received an email from EZ last week in which they say : "We have already started recruiting for 2003 and this year we will only be taking a limited number of pilots through our Direct Entry Scheme therefore, most positions available next year will be for Type Rating Sponsorship Pilots and B737 type rated pilots."
So despite the fact that there are plenty of people with 1500 hours or more on today´s depressed market, they prefer pilots without any airline experience, so that they can scam/scheme £23.000,- out of them. Or they prefer 737 rated pilots.
At least the EZ online application is still for free...!
You said that "For a pilot with more than 1500hrs and appropriate experience, you do not join the scheme mentioned above but a more straight forward bond."
Not entirely true, as on their website they say that : "Senior First Officers (SFO's) have an unfrozen ATPL with a minimum of 1500 hours total time, with a portion of that time being on heavy turboprops or medium to heavy commercial jets. For SFO's there are 2 ways to join the airline: our Direct Entry Scheme and our Type Rating Sponsorship Scheme (TRSS)."
I received an email from EZ last week in which they say : "We have already started recruiting for 2003 and this year we will only be taking a limited number of pilots through our Direct Entry Scheme therefore, most positions available next year will be for Type Rating Sponsorship Pilots and B737 type rated pilots."
So despite the fact that there are plenty of people with 1500 hours or more on today´s depressed market, they prefer pilots without any airline experience, so that they can scam/scheme £23.000,- out of them. Or they prefer 737 rated pilots.
At least the EZ online application is still for free...!
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They are taking direct entry candidates through the TRSS. If you want to improve your chances of a job then you can indicate on your application that you are happy to go through the scheme regardless of your experience.
It is standard practice in the states (Southwest) for you to get your own type rating and unfortunately for some, the market seems to be able to support it at present.
Why not look differrently at it and decide whether it is right for you rather than making the comparison with others who were lucky enough to have gone before you. If you are currently flying a turoprop earning say £28 000 than you can join the scheme as a SFO, earn £30 000 (after the reduction for type rating), there is no money up front and there is the best chance of a promotion in the business. Also you may fly two types (B737, A319) in the future (no not at the same time!) and have what seems to be pretty good job security.
Or stay in your current job.
NG
It is standard practice in the states (Southwest) for you to get your own type rating and unfortunately for some, the market seems to be able to support it at present.
Why not look differrently at it and decide whether it is right for you rather than making the comparison with others who were lucky enough to have gone before you. If you are currently flying a turoprop earning say £28 000 than you can join the scheme as a SFO, earn £30 000 (after the reduction for type rating), there is no money up front and there is the best chance of a promotion in the business. Also you may fly two types (B737, A319) in the future (no not at the same time!) and have what seems to be pretty good job security.
Or stay in your current job.
NG
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It is standard practice in the states (Southwest) for you to get your own type rating and unfortunately for some, the market seems to be able to support it at present.
Sad to see that EZ is heading in the same direction as their Irish counterparts.
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RV
I think that the real cost of the easy type rating is somewhat less given that it is paid before tax and over a five year period.
Yes, it is a pity but it is a tough market at the moment. I think the fact that easy has not stated it as a long term policy for all candidates is that they are hedging their bets and it may change in the future.
That said, for many I still believe that it is not such a bad option considering the whole package.
NG
Edited for spelling, grammer and syntax and stupidity!
I think that the real cost of the easy type rating is somewhat less given that it is paid before tax and over a five year period.
Yes, it is a pity but it is a tough market at the moment. I think the fact that easy has not stated it as a long term policy for all candidates is that they are hedging their bets and it may change in the future.
That said, for many I still believe that it is not such a bad option considering the whole package.
NG
Edited for spelling, grammer and syntax and stupidity!
Last edited by Engee73; 30th Mar 2003 at 18:34.
From a Wannabes perspective I think the easyJet schemes are fair enough in the current climate. Its unfair to lump them with the Ryanair schemes of paying upfront for a rating with no gaurantee of a job.
I suspect the structure of their recruitment paths is to do with ensuring a spectrum of experience is recruited. Its no good just sucking in experienced jet drivers who will all want a rapid command. Nor is it desireable to suck in a phalanx of 200hr cadets. The mix of direct entry jet drivers, 1,500hr TP drivers and 200hr cadets seems to be the most desireable and hence their current recruitment stance.
In essence the laws of supply and demand prevail.
This should not though see pilots as a body acquiesce to any undermining of the profession. Vigilence is needed. The terms and conditions of those at the bottom of the rung need to be defended by those higher up the ladder lest we all be dragged down.
But what do I know. Roll on the pilot shortage!
WWW
I suspect the structure of their recruitment paths is to do with ensuring a spectrum of experience is recruited. Its no good just sucking in experienced jet drivers who will all want a rapid command. Nor is it desireable to suck in a phalanx of 200hr cadets. The mix of direct entry jet drivers, 1,500hr TP drivers and 200hr cadets seems to be the most desireable and hence their current recruitment stance.
In essence the laws of supply and demand prevail.
This should not though see pilots as a body acquiesce to any undermining of the profession. Vigilence is needed. The terms and conditions of those at the bottom of the rung need to be defended by those higher up the ladder lest we all be dragged down.
But what do I know. Roll on the pilot shortage!
WWW
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WWW
Seeing as how "..those higher up the ladder.." have bent over and parted their own cheeks, why on earth do you think they would look after those just starting on the bottom rung!
I wonder also if the Inland Revenue might consider a better tax code for those paying for their own training, because you can take it that ej will be claiming all the VAT back and charging 40% of whats left against corporation tax. Those of you taking up this offer should call your tax office (it being the same as ej's) and ask what the deal is.
Also for what it's worth a bond can only reflect the cost to the company if they have not spent £25,000 on type training they can not bond you for that amount. Just like if two pilots go through a course that costs £25,000 they can not bond £25,000 each only £12,500.
I am more than willing to be proven wrong here but this stems from previous experience.
Seeing as how "..those higher up the ladder.." have bent over and parted their own cheeks, why on earth do you think they would look after those just starting on the bottom rung!
I wonder also if the Inland Revenue might consider a better tax code for those paying for their own training, because you can take it that ej will be claiming all the VAT back and charging 40% of whats left against corporation tax. Those of you taking up this offer should call your tax office (it being the same as ej's) and ask what the deal is.
Also for what it's worth a bond can only reflect the cost to the company if they have not spent £25,000 on type training they can not bond you for that amount. Just like if two pilots go through a course that costs £25,000 they can not bond £25,000 each only £12,500.
I am more than willing to be proven wrong here but this stems from previous experience.
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Hood,
Your point rings bells from a European, non UK, experience a few years ago. The airline bonded pilots for their training costs, equal amounts. When they left within the bonded period the company tried to recoup its bond. The pilots asked for an itemised personal training account. It was obvious from the training records that different pilots had incurred different costs. Thus a standard bond could not be applied.
The company could not provide a personal account nor justify the bond as per contract. The judge through out the company's claim, unless they could provide justifying evidence for the claim.
The pilots did not refuse to pay the bond, only what was attributable to their training. The claim dissolved, was not pursued, and was subsequently dropped.
Your point rings bells from a European, non UK, experience a few years ago. The airline bonded pilots for their training costs, equal amounts. When they left within the bonded period the company tried to recoup its bond. The pilots asked for an itemised personal training account. It was obvious from the training records that different pilots had incurred different costs. Thus a standard bond could not be applied.
The company could not provide a personal account nor justify the bond as per contract. The judge through out the company's claim, unless they could provide justifying evidence for the claim.
The pilots did not refuse to pay the bond, only what was attributable to their training. The claim dissolved, was not pursued, and was subsequently dropped.
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Hello WWW,
This is not entirely correct either. Let me quote from the Ryanair website :
True, Ryanair charges £50 for an application and another fee for the sim check, but it´s all too easy to bash Ryanair (which happens a lot on this forum), while it seems that EZ is not much better when you look at the bottom line.
Its unfair to lump them with the Ryanair schemes of paying upfront for a rating with no gaurantee of a job.
3. Ryanair Pilot 3. Successful and suitable candidates will be offered a contract to fly for Ryanair subject to obtaining a B737 rating from a Ryanair approved training organisation
4. Obtain your B737-rating from a Ryanair approved training organisation. If you pass the simulator assessment, you will be offered a contract to fly for Ryanair subject to obtaining your B737-rating from a Ryanair approved training organisation. See the panel on the left for a list of Ryanair-approved training organisations.
