virgin f/o's
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From: Suffolk UK
Skid, I refer you to my earlier post. For what it's worth, the starting pay fo an FO at VS is around £39k pa. Down-route allowances, as has already been stated, add a further £300 to £500 monthly. Sector pay is worth no more than £100 monthly. There are other payments, such as pay for working on days off (fairly rare), delay pay, and a few other extras.
A new pay structure is under discussion; the company's latest pay offer has been decisively rejected. The likely result of these negotiations will be a reasonably enhanced basic pay, with some element of extra pay per flying hour. Most of the non-subsistence payments will probably disappear. What the net result of this will be in terms of percentage is not yet certain - and any deal may be scuppered, or at least delayed, by the forthcoming war.
B767300ER, as long as you have the right to live and work in UK and obtain a JAA ATPL, you would be welcome at Virgin. There are one or two Yanks here. 987654's experience is right in the ballpark also.
As for security of employment through another war, who knows? The company certainly has contingency plans, but I doubt anyone really knows what the effects of Desert Storm 2 will be to us, or how long they'll last.
A new pay structure is under discussion; the company's latest pay offer has been decisively rejected. The likely result of these negotiations will be a reasonably enhanced basic pay, with some element of extra pay per flying hour. Most of the non-subsistence payments will probably disappear. What the net result of this will be in terms of percentage is not yet certain - and any deal may be scuppered, or at least delayed, by the forthcoming war.
B767300ER, as long as you have the right to live and work in UK and obtain a JAA ATPL, you would be welcome at Virgin. There are one or two Yanks here. 987654's experience is right in the ballpark also.
As for security of employment through another war, who knows? The company certainly has contingency plans, but I doubt anyone really knows what the effects of Desert Storm 2 will be to us, or how long they'll last.
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 37
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From: England
Skid
With reference to yr post regarding pay on top of salary, let me try to clarify. Perhaps i was a little flippant with my beer comment.!! The allowances vary very little on a monthly basis but vary a huge amount depending on destinations which should be taken into account if you plan on counting towards the family budget. For example a 2 night LA is 223 USD. All monies are paid in cash when you check in at the hotel, not in salary. This in theory needs to last you for 2 breakfasts, 2 lunchs and 2dinners, which at local diners/restaurants will set you back about 120 USD., unless you take yr own food or live on Big-Macs. A couple of hours in the bar for 2 nights @ 6-8 dollars for beer/wine, and there is another 50 bucks up the wall! You get 1 full day off, and any activities other sitting by the pool in Summer will cost of course. Throw in 10-20 dollars in taxis from eateries and a 10 dollar phonecard to phone home and there is none left. However if you are a single guy it could be argued that for the 4 days you are away you are not spending yr salary in the bank.
Other destinations are even worse especially South Africa at about 70 pounds for 2 nights. The only place i bring back any cash from is Tokyo, usually 80-100STG you will get about 3-4 a year.
Hope this is of some help. Rgds
With reference to yr post regarding pay on top of salary, let me try to clarify. Perhaps i was a little flippant with my beer comment.!! The allowances vary very little on a monthly basis but vary a huge amount depending on destinations which should be taken into account if you plan on counting towards the family budget. For example a 2 night LA is 223 USD. All monies are paid in cash when you check in at the hotel, not in salary. This in theory needs to last you for 2 breakfasts, 2 lunchs and 2dinners, which at local diners/restaurants will set you back about 120 USD., unless you take yr own food or live on Big-Macs. A couple of hours in the bar for 2 nights @ 6-8 dollars for beer/wine, and there is another 50 bucks up the wall! You get 1 full day off, and any activities other sitting by the pool in Summer will cost of course. Throw in 10-20 dollars in taxis from eateries and a 10 dollar phonecard to phone home and there is none left. However if you are a single guy it could be argued that for the 4 days you are away you are not spending yr salary in the bank.
Other destinations are even worse especially South Africa at about 70 pounds for 2 nights. The only place i bring back any cash from is Tokyo, usually 80-100STG you will get about 3-4 a year.
Hope this is of some help. Rgds
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 459
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From: Philippines
This is all very interesting.
As a SFO at easyJet I currently take home between £2,500 and £2,800 per month.
I have never had any complaints about the money at EZY, it's just the lifestyle - but that's another story.
Regards
As a SFO at easyJet I currently take home between £2,500 and £2,800 per month.
I have never had any complaints about the money at EZY, it's just the lifestyle - but that's another story.
Regards
Joined: Feb 2001
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From: South East
Probably just dreaming but are Virgin ever interested in pilots with a total time of 2000hrs, 1800 of which are B737?
Out of interest my take home is usualy about £2800-£3100 (net) of which £1200 is basic and the rest is variable sector pay.
Out of interest my take home is usualy about £2800-£3100 (net) of which £1200 is basic and the rest is variable sector pay.
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Joined: Dec 1997
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From: Suffolk UK
batty, the normal requirement is for 3000 hours, 2500 at a push. There have been people taken with less than 2000, but only when pilots were few and far between!
If you do come, be prepared for a big pay cut!
If you do come, be prepared for a big pay cut!
Thread Starter
Joined: Feb 2000
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Just for the info of those about to or thinking of applying. Making this move is all about the lifestyle and only lifestyle. All of the candidates at my interview were there for that reason alone. All were willing to take paycuts of up to 20K to come to Virgin. All were from charter/lowcost/regional airlines doing short haul multi sector days and had found that they had no life to speak of at home. The company is very up front that the pay/conditions are only industry average. But, if you are interested in doing and can cope with longhaul then the lifestyle is good. (Those of you in Virgin tempted to shoot me down please allow for the fact that I don't actually do the job yet, so can only form a view from what I've seen and heard.)
Joined: Dec 2001
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From: The Twilight Zone
Skid
I also went for the interview and the pay quoted wasn't just low, it was very low for long-haul heavy drivers ! As for lifestyle.. F/O'S average 80hrs a month due shortage........ What lifestyle ?
TBE.
I also went for the interview and the pay quoted wasn't just low, it was very low for long-haul heavy drivers ! As for lifestyle.. F/O'S average 80hrs a month due shortage........ What lifestyle ?
TBE.
Joined: Jan 2000
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From: LHR/LGW
Speaking from the left hand seat: The pay IS poor, the lifestyle was good but now is not AND if the company get their way it will get very much worse.
As for the right hand seat, this company does not deserve the quality of folk it has in this seat and will have to dramatically improve its pay offer if it wants to hold onto some of these.
Do not come to Virgin for the quality of life, you will likely be dissapointed. Pay is well below the industry norm for long haul. Time to command for new joiners is probably in excess of 10 years now. Only come if you are desperate to fly a big plane on long haul routes.
Best advice: Before applying have a good talk with someone already doing the job.
As for the right hand seat, this company does not deserve the quality of folk it has in this seat and will have to dramatically improve its pay offer if it wants to hold onto some of these.
Do not come to Virgin for the quality of life, you will likely be dissapointed. Pay is well below the industry norm for long haul. Time to command for new joiners is probably in excess of 10 years now. Only come if you are desperate to fly a big plane on long haul routes.
Best advice: Before applying have a good talk with someone already doing the job.
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 12
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From: uk
Completely correct, two of my good friends have just left for warmer climes and unless the pay offer and attitude changes I will be following them. There is is a major probelm at virgin now which is ongoing between the pilots and management, somewhere along the line it will change however the jury is very muchout on how it resolves itself.
Lifestyle? Remember this is a long haul operator that runs primarily east-west, therefore days off are often spent recovering from jet lag. With new jaa regs the company will be able to squeeze even more out of us and pay us even less given their latest plans.
Oh and of course first and foremost remember than in the last round of redundancies and lay offs the low cost sector actually got bigger!! we will suffer during and after any war
My advice, keep your 20% get rid of your income tax and go to emirates, lower command time better money and more sun.
Lifestyle? Remember this is a long haul operator that runs primarily east-west, therefore days off are often spent recovering from jet lag. With new jaa regs the company will be able to squeeze even more out of us and pay us even less given their latest plans.
Oh and of course first and foremost remember than in the last round of redundancies and lay offs the low cost sector actually got bigger!! we will suffer during and after any war
My advice, keep your 20% get rid of your income tax and go to emirates, lower command time better money and more sun.
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 37
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From: England
Some interesting posts.
It is true that the lifestyle is not what it used to be, and might be about to get worse, but personally i prefer long haul to short haul. I have done both charter and scheduled short stuff, and find it much more tiring. However 2 good friends of mine did 2 years here and left to go back to S/haul. Horses 4 courses.
My roster this month is about 80 hrs with 12 days off. That means 12 nights in your own bed and 19 days on the road. Not everybodys cup of tea.
It is true that the lifestyle is not what it used to be, and might be about to get worse, but personally i prefer long haul to short haul. I have done both charter and scheduled short stuff, and find it much more tiring. However 2 good friends of mine did 2 years here and left to go back to S/haul. Horses 4 courses.
My roster this month is about 80 hrs with 12 days off. That means 12 nights in your own bed and 19 days on the road. Not everybodys cup of tea.
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Joined: Feb 2000
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blimey, it sounds like out of the frying pan and into the fire!! Thanks for all the comments and advice. I've got hold of a complete 340 fleet roster (deidentifed) and having scanned thru this the average days off at home, is about 14. I would guess that its about the same for the 7-400. The bu***ration factor is the amount of standbys you all seem to be getting which have to be done 1.5 hours from report point. How do the guys who live a long way from base deal with this? Also do you have to 1.5 from base for an 'available'?
Looking at the posts about my current firm, the choice may be taken away by Mr. Hussain and inept our management anyway!! Its just might turn out to be leaving one sinking ship to join another, what a gamble, my dad was right when he said I should be an accountant!!!!
Looking at the posts about my current firm, the choice may be taken away by Mr. Hussain and inept our management anyway!! Its just might turn out to be leaving one sinking ship to join another, what a gamble, my dad was right when he said I should be an accountant!!!!
Joined: Jan 2003
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From: England
Skid
Standby duty is an interesting point. The maximum is 35 a year. In order to stay within this a typical block is 3 followed by 2 av days which are in theory unlimited. This is because a lot of trips are 5 days. An av is 8.30am-10.30am contactable and 12 hours notice. If this did not happen then a 5 day trip would incur 2 day off payments. I get called on average every other block, but rarely at short notice. About once or twice a year on average. About half the crew live outside the 2 hr range many from as far as the south of France. The options include bed and breakfast, staying with friends, or driving to a motorway service station 2 hrs from base with a mobile for 8 hrs!!. Many do. Most stay at home and chance it with the back up of car won"t start etc. I am one of those that ring crewing the night before a sby block rather than a phone call at 6am, the theory being that most crew go sick the day before rather than short notice, which could really drop someone in it. Hope this helps
Standby duty is an interesting point. The maximum is 35 a year. In order to stay within this a typical block is 3 followed by 2 av days which are in theory unlimited. This is because a lot of trips are 5 days. An av is 8.30am-10.30am contactable and 12 hours notice. If this did not happen then a 5 day trip would incur 2 day off payments. I get called on average every other block, but rarely at short notice. About once or twice a year on average. About half the crew live outside the 2 hr range many from as far as the south of France. The options include bed and breakfast, staying with friends, or driving to a motorway service station 2 hrs from base with a mobile for 8 hrs!!. Many do. Most stay at home and chance it with the back up of car won"t start etc. I am one of those that ring crewing the night before a sby block rather than a phone call at 6am, the theory being that most crew go sick the day before rather than short notice, which could really drop someone in it. Hope this helps
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From: Suffolk UK
It's also likely that standby will become a monthly block, no more than once a year, in the fairly near future. That will ease things for those who live far away (we have pilots in France, Spain, even South Africa!), though for those of us who live on the border of the two-hour limit (not one and a half hours) it might be a bit of a pain if you get called out a lot.
Your interpretation of the roster is about right. The fatigue problems come when you have a Far East trip followed inmediately by a USA one; the jet lag is not for the faint-hearted! That said, like Pnooze, I infinitely prefer the long-haul lifestyle to short-haul, and things would have to get a lot worse before I'd be persauded to leave (there are family factors in my case, too).
Your interpretation of the roster is about right. The fatigue problems come when you have a Far East trip followed inmediately by a USA one; the jet lag is not for the faint-hearted! That said, like Pnooze, I infinitely prefer the long-haul lifestyle to short-haul, and things would have to get a lot worse before I'd be persauded to leave (there are family factors in my case, too).
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Joined: Feb 2000
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Interesting, HR people definately said that sby was 1.5hrs from base, but they also said that getting to base was considered to be on the Bus which takes you in from the carpark. Thanks for the AV comments, I should have read your ops gen closer for that answer. The block sby sounds like a good idea, so long as you still got your min days off as well, otherwise its a month away from home. Just out of interest, it was also mentioned that 8 day trips may be starting soon , any ideas what thats about, I thought that it mignt be the legendary tieup to Australia. Also, is there any advantage/disadvantage to a LHR or LGW base. I realise that you are all considered London based, but apparently we are able to select if we want our cars parked in LHR or LGW. Another query is about the request system, if say, you've got an important weekend coming up which you don't want to use a block of leave for (min 5 days from Ops Gen) are you able to request that weekend off and presumable your trips around it? If so, and assuming you are on the line which gets 1st choice that month, what do you find are the chances of the request being granted. If you guys are getting bored with all these questions, I quite understand, but I bet a lot of other people out there are interested in the answers you're giving.
ps gonadz, I specifically asked about the effects on work patterns that the adoption of JAA sub part Q by the UK would make on VS. I was told that it was not likly to as you have BALPA negoitated FTL scheme on top of the company interpretation of the rules. I cannot see any of you guys voting to change the existing scheme if it would detract from your lifestyle. I suspect that any imposition of the rules at any company in the UK may just be the the final straw which would unify the UK pilot population to strike action.
ps gonadz, I specifically asked about the effects on work patterns that the adoption of JAA sub part Q by the UK would make on VS. I was told that it was not likly to as you have BALPA negoitated FTL scheme on top of the company interpretation of the rules. I cannot see any of you guys voting to change the existing scheme if it would detract from your lifestyle. I suspect that any imposition of the rules at any company in the UK may just be the the final straw which would unify the UK pilot population to strike action.
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 37
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From: England
Hi Skid
I will try and awnser yr questions one at a time and hope it helps.
1. The sby is 2 hours from the telephone call to being in the office. However crewing are fairly flexible with flt deck, and treat us as responsible adults. I fly out of LHR but live 20 mins from LGW, and get the co. shuttle bus which runs every hour or so. If you just miss a bus 2 hrs is impossible but crewing are understanding and know that you are doing yr best. As long as you make departure time then no worries.
2. Yep monthly sby is on the way soon, and is generally welcomed. It will probably be about 4-5 blocks of sby about 3-5 days long with 2-3 days off in between, but this is just supposition at the moment. I would not be surprised if half of the month gets filled in with trips before the 1st of the month
3. In the 5 years i have been here Australia has been on the cards, which would be a 8-10 day trip, however nothing doing yet. A conversation with a director several weeks ago hinted at the possibility next year providing that 5th freedom rights are av from HKG. Watch this space.
4. All flt deck are London based, although the A340 only flies from LHR, but the B747 flies fairly evenly from both. Where you choose to have your carpark pass is up to you. In practice if you are on the Boeing and park at LHR but are flying from LGW then you have to get the co. shuttle bus. However the guys often swap trips to avoid this.
5. Trip and day off requests are handled on a rotating seniority basis. On the A340 there are 3 groups of F/Os. Each group spends 4 months as top group, 4 in the middle and 4 at the bottom per year. Within each group is date of joining seniority. When in top group you pretty much get wot you want. At the bottom of the req form is a comments section where you can explain that it is yr wifes birthday, kids sports day, etc. and rostering will do their best. On the A340 we are lucky to have a very good rostering lady who always does her best to heip you meet family commitments. I do not know the -400 roster people so can"t comment. Sometimes it is better to ask for an unpopular trip getting back on a Friday to get the Weekend off rather than asking for the actual days off. It depends where you are in the system, seniority wise. You will soon get the hang of the system.
Hope this all helps. Post again if you have any other Q's
I will try and awnser yr questions one at a time and hope it helps.
1. The sby is 2 hours from the telephone call to being in the office. However crewing are fairly flexible with flt deck, and treat us as responsible adults. I fly out of LHR but live 20 mins from LGW, and get the co. shuttle bus which runs every hour or so. If you just miss a bus 2 hrs is impossible but crewing are understanding and know that you are doing yr best. As long as you make departure time then no worries.
2. Yep monthly sby is on the way soon, and is generally welcomed. It will probably be about 4-5 blocks of sby about 3-5 days long with 2-3 days off in between, but this is just supposition at the moment. I would not be surprised if half of the month gets filled in with trips before the 1st of the month
3. In the 5 years i have been here Australia has been on the cards, which would be a 8-10 day trip, however nothing doing yet. A conversation with a director several weeks ago hinted at the possibility next year providing that 5th freedom rights are av from HKG. Watch this space.
4. All flt deck are London based, although the A340 only flies from LHR, but the B747 flies fairly evenly from both. Where you choose to have your carpark pass is up to you. In practice if you are on the Boeing and park at LHR but are flying from LGW then you have to get the co. shuttle bus. However the guys often swap trips to avoid this.
5. Trip and day off requests are handled on a rotating seniority basis. On the A340 there are 3 groups of F/Os. Each group spends 4 months as top group, 4 in the middle and 4 at the bottom per year. Within each group is date of joining seniority. When in top group you pretty much get wot you want. At the bottom of the req form is a comments section where you can explain that it is yr wifes birthday, kids sports day, etc. and rostering will do their best. On the A340 we are lucky to have a very good rostering lady who always does her best to heip you meet family commitments. I do not know the -400 roster people so can"t comment. Sometimes it is better to ask for an unpopular trip getting back on a Friday to get the Weekend off rather than asking for the actual days off. It depends where you are in the system, seniority wise. You will soon get the hang of the system.
Hope this all helps. Post again if you have any other Q's