The Ryanair 5 on / 3 off roster . . .
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The Ryanair 5 on / 3 off roster . . .
Most times I see PPRUNE I get a banner ad declaring a wonderful lifestyle at Ryanair . . . Excuse me being a cynical cove BUT are the patterns flown really 5 on / 3 off or is this just a recruiting ploy?
The advantages of a fixed roster must be huge. Being able to plan your lifestyle, no chocolate rostering, less politics and all the obvious.
Some questions for brother pilots at Ryanair:
1. Do you get similar complaints about fatigue as at easyjet and others?
2. Do the rosters get disrupted?
3. Are the earlies really early and the lates really late?
4. How many standby's are rostered
The advantages of a fixed roster must be huge. Being able to plan your lifestyle, no chocolate rostering, less politics and all the obvious.
Some questions for brother pilots at Ryanair:
1. Do you get similar complaints about fatigue as at easyjet and others?
2. Do the rosters get disrupted?
3. Are the earlies really early and the lates really late?
4. How many standby's are rostered
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Yes the 5 on 3 off are as advertised. If you are called to work on a day off you can refuse, if you do work its £212 plus your normal sector pay. Doesnt happen very offen though as you can imagine!.
Speaking from my own summer roster earlies start on average with a 530-600 report and finish about 1500. Sometimes a little earlier sometimes a little later.
Lates start anywhere from 1230 to 1700 (usualy closer to 1230!) and finish 2200- 2315.
Standbys are on average 2-3 days a month but I am usualy called in on them, but thats extra sector pay as opposed to none!
I find I get tired on earlies but the shifts are fine and as you say there is a huge advantage to being able to plan you life.
Speaking from my own summer roster earlies start on average with a 530-600 report and finish about 1500. Sometimes a little earlier sometimes a little later.
Lates start anywhere from 1230 to 1700 (usualy closer to 1230!) and finish 2200- 2315.
Standbys are on average 2-3 days a month but I am usualy called in on them, but thats extra sector pay as opposed to none!
I find I get tired on earlies but the shifts are fine and as you say there is a huge advantage to being able to plan you life.
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5 lates -3 days off - 5 Earlies - 3 days off. Earlies after days off start after 0545. Lates before days off end before 2345 (unless G*Star decide otherwise!). Not bad compared to what I hear in orange land but 4 on 4 off would be better. The best part is knowing what you are doing for four weeks.
Suddenly FR is not looking as bad (by comparison).
Suddenly FR is not looking as bad (by comparison).
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Nassauman, Could you confirm the 5 lates-3off-5 earlies. So you could finish at 2330 local at the end of the fifth day and then three days later start at 0545 local. In my company that would be 2 rest days and one single day off.
The next day, if finished after 2000 local is a rest day and if starting before 0800 local the preceding day is a rest day. So if we were rostered that pattern, we would have rest day after late finish, three clear days off and then rest day before early start.
The next day, if finished after 2000 local is a rest day and if starting before 0800 local the preceding day is a rest day. So if we were rostered that pattern, we would have rest day after late finish, three clear days off and then rest day before early start.
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Fat boy
we're talking about ryanair here, not your company. Nassauman is correct: 5 earlies 3 days off, 5 lates 3 days off.
you might not think that lates on to earlies works out at 3 days off in your company but try earlies on to lates....that's almost 4 clear days off (96 hrs) in Ryanair. how would your company work that out? Swings and roundabouts.
we're talking about ryanair here, not your company. Nassauman is correct: 5 earlies 3 days off, 5 lates 3 days off.
you might not think that lates on to earlies works out at 3 days off in your company but try earlies on to lates....that's almost 4 clear days off (96 hrs) in Ryanair. how would your company work that out? Swings and roundabouts.
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Lates to Earlies around days off has been a real issue with a number of airlines & seriously reduces the rest time & value of days off.
Earlies - days off - lates is wonderful & is the first thing I search for on my roster.
FBS, I think we work for the same company as our new scheduling agreement is supposed to put a stop to this practice. A big step forward!
Earlies - days off - lates is wonderful & is the first thing I search for on my roster.
FBS, I think we work for the same company as our new scheduling agreement is supposed to put a stop to this practice. A big step forward!
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Ryan, Our agreement is no more than three earlys in a row, so it would be three earlys, followed by two lates, rest day, two days off and no start before 0800 after those two days.
It does seem strange that UK companys seem to have differing definitions of a local night, which defines whether it is or isn't a day off and the CAA find this acceptable.
It does seem strange that UK companys seem to have differing definitions of a local night, which defines whether it is or isn't a day off and the CAA find this acceptable.
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So the problem is that the FR system works in practice but doesn't work in theory unlike the superior UK system which works in theory (It must ..because it has really complicated rules and 100 pages and it was written by someone in the UK) but doesn't seem to work in practice - if the non fatiguing 7 on 2 off system is a result.
Then again how could a non UK person like me begin to understand the superior workings of UK avaition,best ATC system,aircraft, best set of rules, ..weather,football etc
Ok - sorry now I'm being zenophobic myself - I like living in the UK and most of the people I meet don't sound like a few we see here. Please understand that it does get a little tiresome listening rubbish about Irish regulations - I work with a lot of UK nationals who get tired of it too.
Then again how could a non UK person like me begin to understand the superior workings of UK avaition,best ATC system,aircraft, best set of rules, ..weather,football etc
Ok - sorry now I'm being zenophobic myself - I like living in the UK and most of the people I meet don't sound like a few we see here. Please understand that it does get a little tiresome listening rubbish about Irish regulations - I work with a lot of UK nationals who get tired of it too.
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What the hell are the Ryan bashers at now!!
The system works I get my days off and can tell you now what I will be doing over Christmas this year and in theory next year etc, how many others of you can say that!!
And FatBoy Slim,
"Our agreement is no more than three earlys in a row, so it would be three earlys, followed by two lates, rest day, two days off and no start before 0800 after those two days"
Soryy but that sounds just like 5 on 3 off to me. Swapping from earlies to lates after a couple of days, your telling me thats not fatiguing dont make me laugh!!! Quite clever realy start on earlies finish on lates I would love that system.....NOT
Stop knocking what you havn't got just because your anti Ryanair.
Grow up......
The system works I get my days off and can tell you now what I will be doing over Christmas this year and in theory next year etc, how many others of you can say that!!
And FatBoy Slim,
"Our agreement is no more than three earlys in a row, so it would be three earlys, followed by two lates, rest day, two days off and no start before 0800 after those two days"
Soryy but that sounds just like 5 on 3 off to me. Swapping from earlies to lates after a couple of days, your telling me thats not fatiguing dont make me laugh!!! Quite clever realy start on earlies finish on lates I would love that system.....NOT
Stop knocking what you havn't got just because your anti Ryanair.
Grow up......
Last edited by batty; 24th Oct 2002 at 16:31.
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Having operated five early flights on a UK CAP 371 roster I am happy to testify that by day five I was really tired and often didn't make the end of the pattern. It is seemingly impossible to keep shifting your sleep pattern in an anti-clockwise direction.
It intrigues me that Ryanair pilots don't seem to complain of problems with fatigue (or over tiredness) with the pattern. However, from what has been discussed here, I wonder if that is because the pattern is (apparently) very predictable. I.E. the pattern of five earlies on a CAP 371 roster may appear at random and be mixed in with other awkward shifts. The Ryanair deal allows for eleven days recovering your sleep pattern. This would seem ample.
There seems to be a slight advantage in coping with a tiring pattern when it is what you expect. It is obviously less stressful on your private life if you can make certain plans for normal social arrangements.
Nassauman makes the amusing point that 'the FR system works in practice but doesn't work in theory '.
CAP 371 is a tortuous system to work under with some airlines; we all know that it is used as a work target and that creates the problems it is written to circumvent when sometimes a locally agrees deal suits both sides.
The Ryanair deal sounds pretty good for both sides by all account. Presumably it functions in this niche because there are neither night stops or night flights. Include these variations to your body rhythm and 900 hours a year really would cause fatigue.
It intrigues me that Ryanair pilots don't seem to complain of problems with fatigue (or over tiredness) with the pattern. However, from what has been discussed here, I wonder if that is because the pattern is (apparently) very predictable. I.E. the pattern of five earlies on a CAP 371 roster may appear at random and be mixed in with other awkward shifts. The Ryanair deal allows for eleven days recovering your sleep pattern. This would seem ample.
There seems to be a slight advantage in coping with a tiring pattern when it is what you expect. It is obviously less stressful on your private life if you can make certain plans for normal social arrangements.
Nassauman makes the amusing point that 'the FR system works in practice but doesn't work in theory '.
CAP 371 is a tortuous system to work under with some airlines; we all know that it is used as a work target and that creates the problems it is written to circumvent when sometimes a locally agrees deal suits both sides.
The Ryanair deal sounds pretty good for both sides by all account. Presumably it functions in this niche because there are neither night stops or night flights. Include these variations to your body rhythm and 900 hours a year really would cause fatigue.
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Yarpy is right in that after 5 days of earlies you are getting tired. I find that by sleeping properly ie going to bed early so you can get up early, stops me getting realy tired, as the saying goes you cant burn the candle at both ends. I also find that by day 3 I am getting used to getting up early and that in return makes me less tired.
It is great being able to have some form of normality in a job that is inherently unstable. I used to be in the RAF and the hours we flew there were plane rediculous at times.
Nice to see someone being constructive with a sensible reply Yarpy, as opposed to just opening their mouth....
It is great being able to have some form of normality in a job that is inherently unstable. I used to be in the RAF and the hours we flew there were plane rediculous at times.
Nice to see someone being constructive with a sensible reply Yarpy, as opposed to just opening their mouth....
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You can give me the Ryanair system right now, please !!!
My outfit does'nt give enough roster notice to allow a social or private life. Massive proportion of standby....rostering at one hours notice I call it ! My outfit rosters earlies (first early no earlier than 0600L or 0900L depending) becoming lates in the same block of duty, over and over and over................days off are ruined !
My body does'nt know when it should wake up or go to sleep; it never has a hint of regularity, not even five days of regularity, to get used to !!
Sorry .......yawn........feel tired for some reason..........zzzzzzzzzzz
My outfit does'nt give enough roster notice to allow a social or private life. Massive proportion of standby....rostering at one hours notice I call it ! My outfit rosters earlies (first early no earlier than 0600L or 0900L depending) becoming lates in the same block of duty, over and over and over................days off are ruined !
My body does'nt know when it should wake up or go to sleep; it never has a hint of regularity, not even five days of regularity, to get used to !!
Sorry .......yawn........feel tired for some reason..........zzzzzzzzzzz
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Best thing about our rosters is the fact that they arrive every
friday 4 weeks in advance, and then dont change.
I have no problem with the 5 days or the 4 days. Its the absence
of 6 or 7 day rosters, and the absence of short notice changes
[a regular pain in the a**e at my previous] which makes the
ryan rosters so good. Three cheers for PG and the Ctee who
delivered the goods!
friday 4 weeks in advance, and then dont change.
I have no problem with the 5 days or the 4 days. Its the absence
of 6 or 7 day rosters, and the absence of short notice changes
[a regular pain in the a**e at my previous] which makes the
ryan rosters so good. Three cheers for PG and the Ctee who
delivered the goods!
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Batty,
Hi, I do hope u r well.
Question to you though:
If u r working 900 hours a year, r these spread over 12 months, or is it more like 9 months of 100 hours a month?
If so, seeing as your basic is a fair bit lower than industry average (I am led to believe) how do u survive on the lean 3 months of no flying? I believe most of your money is made in sector pay as u allude to.
A pal of mine was on your course and I am intrigued to know, but am too afraid to ask!
Anyhow Batty, r u still waking up the neighbours in the 200 or r u a NG driver yet?
Hi, I do hope u r well.
Question to you though:
If u r working 900 hours a year, r these spread over 12 months, or is it more like 9 months of 100 hours a month?
If so, seeing as your basic is a fair bit lower than industry average (I am led to believe) how do u survive on the lean 3 months of no flying? I believe most of your money is made in sector pay as u allude to.
A pal of mine was on your course and I am intrigued to know, but am too afraid to ask!
Anyhow Batty, r u still waking up the neighbours in the 200 or r u a NG driver yet?
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Batty
CAP371 does not allow starts before 0600LT after days off and no more than 3 earlys on the bounce.
Do you think the lack of rules referring to earlys / lates at FR
are positive contributions to a more stable roster / lifestyle?.
CAP371 does not allow starts before 0600LT after days off and no more than 3 earlys on the bounce.
Do you think the lack of rules referring to earlys / lates at FR
are positive contributions to a more stable roster / lifestyle?.
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Jeez, Mr angry
Take the blinkers off man. Just because it's not cap371 doesn't make it wrong.
The answer to your question is that there is not a lack of rules, there are just different rules and, yes, it does make a positive contribution to lifestyle
my advice to you is pour yourself a cold beer and relax a while. you'll give yourself a coronary staying so angry
Take the blinkers off man. Just because it's not cap371 doesn't make it wrong.
The answer to your question is that there is not a lack of rules, there are just different rules and, yes, it does make a positive contribution to lifestyle
my advice to you is pour yourself a cold beer and relax a while. you'll give yourself a coronary staying so angry
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Mr Angry,
Yes it may not be CAP371 but I have a stable roster, a stable family life and Im not tired ! That says lots to me!!
So is it a better idea then to do three days earlies and then swap to lates just as your body is getting used to the earlies and then protests at you for working late out of the rythumn it has just established? Is it better to work 3 earlies then 2 lates, have 3 days off, the first of which your body doesnt know which way is up, just to start earlies again ie approx 3.5 days off.
I work 5 earlies, and my body is used to it by day 5. I then have the rest of day 5 off, then 3 days, and most of day 1 on lates off, nearly 96 hours. I know which system I would prefer, and have.....
Yes it may not be CAP371 but I have a stable roster, a stable family life and Im not tired ! That says lots to me!!
So is it a better idea then to do three days earlies and then swap to lates just as your body is getting used to the earlies and then protests at you for working late out of the rythumn it has just established? Is it better to work 3 earlies then 2 lates, have 3 days off, the first of which your body doesnt know which way is up, just to start earlies again ie approx 3.5 days off.
I work 5 earlies, and my body is used to it by day 5. I then have the rest of day 5 off, then 3 days, and most of day 1 on lates off, nearly 96 hours. I know which system I would prefer, and have.....
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RyanPilot / Yarpy
er i'm not angry !
I've been concerned for too many years that all the rules of CAP371 particularly the max earlys make it too confusing and forces Operators into mixed earlys / lates /nights. You then add social rules and there is no chance because for example a social rule of starting after 0800 means a stby followed by earlys, then you get called out for a afternoon and the roster goes to pot.
There is medical evidence that the more sectors you do the more fatigueing it gets but nothing about consecutives after 3 to say it gets worse.
The replys you have given make a refreshing change from the usual anti rostering bashers, and given the woes at Ezy it seems strange they don't try and copy your lead.
er i'm not angry !
I've been concerned for too many years that all the rules of CAP371 particularly the max earlys make it too confusing and forces Operators into mixed earlys / lates /nights. You then add social rules and there is no chance because for example a social rule of starting after 0800 means a stby followed by earlys, then you get called out for a afternoon and the roster goes to pot.
There is medical evidence that the more sectors you do the more fatigueing it gets but nothing about consecutives after 3 to say it gets worse.
The replys you have given make a refreshing change from the usual anti rostering bashers, and given the woes at Ezy it seems strange they don't try and copy your lead.