Career Advice
Thread Starter
Joined: Sep 2024
Posts: 9
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From: Seoul
Career Advice
Hi guys, first time posting for some career advice.
I was lucky enough to get an FO job opportunity in a B787 straight out of instructing in Cessnas and have been flying for about a year and a half now.
I thought this was a dream come true (flying my dream aircraft + skipping the SH 4leg a day battles) and it really was until I realized it was a double edged sword.
My company focuses on LH routes along with a little bit of short and mid-haul routes on the side which leaves me about 1~4 landings per month.
From my experience flying so far, these numbers are far from enough to get my skills up quickly.
Ofcourse my company is aware of this and it will take me and my classmates approximately 9~10 years to even be eligible for command here. (meaning it might take longer if there is a long line of senior FOs waiting in line)
The company plans to expand its routes (both LH and SH) but I am just worried these so called SH (2 legged quick-turns or layover flights) routes that I get 1~2 times a month on a 787 is not enough to substitute for 4leg a day SH experience.
I have frequently asked for advice from captains in my company. Some say your 9~10 years of experience in LH flying with a mix of some SH in type will be enough to prepare you to move to the LHS on the same game. But there are others that say SH fast pace game + frequent opportunities in the controls are crucial to increasing your "capacity" as a pilot (ultimately PIC).
So my question to you guys is.. Should I stay here and wait another 8-9 years to jump from the RHS to the LHS of the 787 or should I make a move to another airline say, a low cost flying 737 to get that SH experience and shorter time to command?
++ I am also looking into opportunities like the Middle East or AJX, EVA, SIA for 787 jobs that can allow me to fly more SH routes but for the time being, above is the decision I have to make...
I was lucky enough to get an FO job opportunity in a B787 straight out of instructing in Cessnas and have been flying for about a year and a half now.
I thought this was a dream come true (flying my dream aircraft + skipping the SH 4leg a day battles) and it really was until I realized it was a double edged sword.
My company focuses on LH routes along with a little bit of short and mid-haul routes on the side which leaves me about 1~4 landings per month.
From my experience flying so far, these numbers are far from enough to get my skills up quickly.
Ofcourse my company is aware of this and it will take me and my classmates approximately 9~10 years to even be eligible for command here. (meaning it might take longer if there is a long line of senior FOs waiting in line)
The company plans to expand its routes (both LH and SH) but I am just worried these so called SH (2 legged quick-turns or layover flights) routes that I get 1~2 times a month on a 787 is not enough to substitute for 4leg a day SH experience.
I have frequently asked for advice from captains in my company. Some say your 9~10 years of experience in LH flying with a mix of some SH in type will be enough to prepare you to move to the LHS on the same game. But there are others that say SH fast pace game + frequent opportunities in the controls are crucial to increasing your "capacity" as a pilot (ultimately PIC).
So my question to you guys is.. Should I stay here and wait another 8-9 years to jump from the RHS to the LHS of the 787 or should I make a move to another airline say, a low cost flying 737 to get that SH experience and shorter time to command?
++ I am also looking into opportunities like the Middle East or AJX, EVA, SIA for 787 jobs that can allow me to fly more SH routes but for the time being, above is the decision I have to make...
Joined: Dec 2005
Aviation Qualifications: ATPL
Posts: 4,970
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From: Hong Kong
Straight out of cessnas to long haul. Are you bonded? Don't worry too much about proficiency, you'll get the hang of it in 8-9 years. Why not let the market decide? Apply only for short haul jobs with a 10% pay increase and move if you get them.
Thread Starter
Joined: Sep 2024
Posts: 9
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From: Seoul
Thank you for the reply. what does it mean to be bonded??? I am working for an airline that operates a 787 only fleet. Thats how I got the opportunity.
Joined: Nov 2018
Posts: 11
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From: London
Is 8 - 10 years unreasonable? Assuming you went straight into flying you must be early 20s at worst. That's wide body command in your 30s and then another 30 years flying LHS? A bit of extra life experience can often help with Command.
Honestly, 8 -10 years experience in commercial aviation before command sounds entirely reasonable, you have a (hopefully) long career ahead of you - what's the rush? Charter SH airlines only do 2 sector days as well. If the lifestyle works for your personal life and you can put bread on the table and buy the occasional beer, I would just try and enjoy the ride.
Honestly, 8 -10 years experience in commercial aviation before command sounds entirely reasonable, you have a (hopefully) long career ahead of you - what's the rush? Charter SH airlines only do 2 sector days as well. If the lifestyle works for your personal life and you can put bread on the table and buy the occasional beer, I would just try and enjoy the ride.
Thread Starter
Joined: Sep 2024
Posts: 9
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From: Seoul
Is 8 - 10 years unreasonable? Assuming you went straight into flying you must be early 20s at worst. That's wide body command in your 30s and then another 30 years flying LHS? A bit of extra life experience can often help with Command.
Honestly, 8 -10 years experience in commercial aviation before command sounds entirely reasonable, you have a (hopefully) long career ahead of you - what's the rush? Charter SH airlines only do 2 sector days as well. If the lifestyle works for your personal life and you can put bread on the table and buy the occasional beer, I would just try and enjoy the ride.
Honestly, 8 -10 years experience in commercial aviation before command sounds entirely reasonable, you have a (hopefully) long career ahead of you - what's the rush? Charter SH airlines only do 2 sector days as well. If the lifestyle works for your personal life and you can put bread on the table and buy the occasional beer, I would just try and enjoy the ride.
Joined: Dec 2005
Aviation Qualifications: ATPL
Posts: 4,970
Likes: 326
From: Hong Kong
Your first job on a 787, and not bonded? A bond is how they keep you from getting a type rating then leaving straight away. You usually sign a contract to say you'll stay for a certain number of years and if you leave early you have to pay for the cost of the training of a percentage of it. If you got a 787 job out of flight school with no bond then you hit the jackpot.
Joined: Oct 2019
Posts: 233
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From: SW1A 2AA
Being a Captain has very little to do with actual stick and rudder skills. Assuming you can do a decent job of flying the aircraft and passing the sim/line checks you will be fine from that point of view. A lot of command stuff is about managing things when they go wrong. The sort of stuff that crops up where you have never had any training in how to deal with it. The "Black Swan" type of events. Any Captain with a few years in the LHS could share some stories with you. Learn from them, put yourself in their shoes.
If you like it where you are, stay put. Does it work for you and your family? No flying job is perfect.
If you like it where you are, stay put. Does it work for you and your family? No flying job is perfect.
Thread Starter
Joined: Sep 2024
Posts: 9
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From: Seoul
Your first job on a 787, and not bonded? A bond is how they keep you from getting a type rating then leaving straight away. You usually sign a contract to say you'll stay for a certain number of years and if you leave early you have to pay for the cost of the training of a percentage of it. If you got a 787 job out of flight school with no bond then you hit the jackpot.
Thread Starter
Joined: Sep 2024
Posts: 9
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From: Seoul
Being a Captain has very little to do with actual stick and rudder skills. Assuming you can do a decent job of flying the aircraft and passing the sim/line checks you will be fine from that point of view. A lot of command stuff is about managing things when they go wrong. The sort of stuff that crops up where you have never had any training in how to deal with it. The "Black Swan" type of events. Any Captain with a few years in the LHS could share some stories with you. Learn from them, put yourself in their shoes.
If you like it where you are, stay put. Does it work for you and your family? No flying job is perfect.
If you like it where you are, stay put. Does it work for you and your family? No flying job is perfect.
Thread Starter
Joined: Sep 2024
Posts: 9
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From: Seoul
I guess I should take my time with it.
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 1,761
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From: Lemonia. Best Greek in the world
Having given career advice over many years in different situations, I have come across quite a few folk for whom the grass is always greener somewhere else. You do not sound like one of those people.
I think your current approach is the correct one. Every now and then, take advice and look around, casually. Ask the sort of questions that you have asked on here. You could, perhaps, seek a mentor with lots of experience somewhere. People normally respond positively to being asked to mentor someone.
Then just get on with the job.
I think your current approach is the correct one. Every now and then, take advice and look around, casually. Ask the sort of questions that you have asked on here. You could, perhaps, seek a mentor with lots of experience somewhere. People normally respond positively to being asked to mentor someone.
Then just get on with the job.
Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 665
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From: hang on let me check
I will give you the career advice I wish I was given 20 years ago.
Avoid avoid avoid jobs where the norm is long days, 4 legs-no layovers.
Anything else, if it’s a stable place with good career prospects eventually, stick with it and enjoy.
Avoid avoid avoid jobs where the norm is long days, 4 legs-no layovers.
Anything else, if it’s a stable place with good career prospects eventually, stick with it and enjoy.
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 182
Likes: 29
From: where I lay my hat
Funny, cos I did long haul in the first part of my career and began to hate the boring flying and layovers, and was much happier getting home every night, with about one to two 4 sector days every week ... and far greater job security. That said, I think the optimum is to start off with about 10 years of short haul to hone your skills, then try long haul before getting too old. Or join a flag carrier (the advice I wish I had taken at age 25) -
In fact, the best advice i ever ignored is, 'the worst thing to happen to me would be taking that very early command - so I did indeed end up hopping from one shakey start up to another, determined to keep the left seat. My advice - read 'Fate is the hunter).
In fact, the best advice i ever ignored is, 'the worst thing to happen to me would be taking that very early command - so I did indeed end up hopping from one shakey start up to another, determined to keep the left seat. My advice - read 'Fate is the hunter).
Joined: Dec 2005
Aviation Qualifications: ATPL
Posts: 4,970
Likes: 326
From: Hong Kong
Everyone wants different things, depending on whether they're running away from something or running towards it. There's loads of guys at Ryanair dreaming of Emirates - meanwhile I know a guy who quit long haul to go to Ryanair to sleep in his bed every night and watch his kids grow up. Do what makes you happy but don't think you're 'missing out' one something by not doing 4 sector days, you're only a good as the last 3 months in your logbook.
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 23
Likes: 18
From: London
I have quite a similar background to you... Started flying for a living aged 31 having waited 7 years to get a lucky break (UK financial crash etc). First job was mostly long haul which was great fun but I found it very difficult to get good at it since I didn't fly regularly enough. I've only ever done this job with young kids at home. I do think it's a very different job once you start a family. Your priorities will change and your home life will be fatiguing, let alone spending nights out of bed, early starts etc. Some days I turn up to work and think it's a miracle I'm even there!
I left my long haul job and now work at BA on short haul. I like the pattern of doing 1/2 nights away and having the option of day trips. It suits me (though the constant weekend working less so) but that doesn't mean it'll suit everyone of course. A lot of people thought I was mad when I jacked in the long haul job to go and flog around Europe in a 320, but they tended to be people without kids, who were able to recover from trips exactly as they wanted to at home and spend all day in bed before a night flight etc.
Suppose the point I'm making is it depends what your life plans are. If you're planning a family soon then that may influence your decision.
Good luck with it.
I left my long haul job and now work at BA on short haul. I like the pattern of doing 1/2 nights away and having the option of day trips. It suits me (though the constant weekend working less so) but that doesn't mean it'll suit everyone of course. A lot of people thought I was mad when I jacked in the long haul job to go and flog around Europe in a 320, but they tended to be people without kids, who were able to recover from trips exactly as they wanted to at home and spend all day in bed before a night flight etc.
Suppose the point I'm making is it depends what your life plans are. If you're planning a family soon then that may influence your decision.
Good luck with it.
Thread Starter
Joined: Sep 2024
Posts: 9
Likes: 0
From: Seoul
I have quite a similar background to you... Started flying for a living aged 31 having waited 7 years to get a lucky break (UK financial crash etc). First job was mostly long haul which was great fun but I found it very difficult to get good at it since I didn't fly regularly enough. I've only ever done this job with young kids at home. I do think it's a very different job once you start a family. Your priorities will change and your home life will be fatiguing, let alone spending nights out of bed, early starts etc. Some days I turn up to work and think it's a miracle I'm even there!
I left my long haul job and now work at BA on short haul. I like the pattern of doing 1/2 nights away and having the option of day trips. It suits me (though the constant weekend working less so) but that doesn't mean it'll suit everyone of course. A lot of people thought I was mad when I jacked in the long haul job to go and flog around Europe in a 320, but they tended to be people without kids, who were able to recover from trips exactly as they wanted to at home and spend all day in bed before a night flight etc.
Suppose the point I'm making is it depends what your life plans are. If you're planning a family soon then that may influence your decision.
Good luck with it.
I left my long haul job and now work at BA on short haul. I like the pattern of doing 1/2 nights away and having the option of day trips. It suits me (though the constant weekend working less so) but that doesn't mean it'll suit everyone of course. A lot of people thought I was mad when I jacked in the long haul job to go and flog around Europe in a 320, but they tended to be people without kids, who were able to recover from trips exactly as they wanted to at home and spend all day in bed before a night flight etc.
Suppose the point I'm making is it depends what your life plans are. If you're planning a family soon then that may influence your decision.
Good luck with it.
How about the proficiency? Do you think it is a totally different game between LH and SH? Do you agree with the other guys above that proficiency is a matter of time?
Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 69
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From: UK
Totally agree with the sentiments of do what will work for your life as a whole.
I work for a UK holiday company in a regional base. For me, it works well for family life. 2 sector days, granted busier summer but very quiet winter. Sure lots of standbys but (again in my own circumstances) I can do school run etc on standby and be around at home. Whilst my wife and I have back ups in place for standby call outs (which are few and far between), my young kids only see it as me being around a lot.
if you’re current gig works well for home life, I would try and protect that as much as possible.
I know that my job, from now until retirement will not be the most exciting aviation career in the world, far from it. But for me the benefits for lifestyle are worth the trade. Do what suits you, everyone’s needs/wants are different!
I work for a UK holiday company in a regional base. For me, it works well for family life. 2 sector days, granted busier summer but very quiet winter. Sure lots of standbys but (again in my own circumstances) I can do school run etc on standby and be around at home. Whilst my wife and I have back ups in place for standby call outs (which are few and far between), my young kids only see it as me being around a lot.
if you’re current gig works well for home life, I would try and protect that as much as possible.
I know that my job, from now until retirement will not be the most exciting aviation career in the world, far from it. But for me the benefits for lifestyle are worth the trade. Do what suits you, everyone’s needs/wants are different!
Last edited by JM926; 20th September 2024 at 19:13.
Joined: May 2023
Posts: 26
Likes: 10
From: Europe
You have jackpot career there. If you miss short flights and landings, rent or buy your own cessna and fly it in your free time. 8-9 years to command on WB is almost impossible in any legacy if you start short haul. Not to mention to change companies to be able to upgrade. Being LH captain in early 40's will give you plenty of time to spend with your future family if you plan any or for your middle age crisis activities, something you probably will not have enough in any SH operations.