British Airways Direct Entry Pilot

[RexBanner]

Just a point of order, the A380 junior? Maybe it has been recently in the annual bid but the majority of the status list is super senior, you’ve got a bunch of guys who have no intention of going elsewhere and are waiting it out for dead man’s shoes of 380 LHS. To illustrate the point I’m moving into the top half of every other Long Haul fleet now (except the 787 to be fair but that won’t be long), been in almost ten years but still stuck at 70% on the A380.

(If somehow you did manage to get a seat welcome to the best kept secret in BA. Super relaxed fleet, getting to actually know and develop a relationship with your colleagues is a breath of fresh air and yes destinations are limited but that has its plus points too and let’s face it none of them are awful.)

[GS-Alpha]

Number of First Officers above 1800 seniority by fleet:

A380 = 8
A350 = 15
787 = 53
777 = 116

So new long haul commands come from senior SFOs going and taking commands. That is what I mean by relatively junior fleets. Most new long haul commands will come from the Boeing fleets, which means most new FO positions will also be on those fleets.

(Sure, the overall seniority of people relative to your seniority may be different on the different fleets, but it’s those above 1800 or so who’ll be getting long haul commands next year, and likely driving FO recruitment onto long haul next year).

[skyflyer737]

Originally Posted by hunterboy

It does appear that pilots on the 777 are dropping like flies……

What do you mean by that? Leaving the company?

[bylgw]

Not so sure about leaving, but fatigue at an all time high

[RexBanner]

It’s a common thing nowadays to see junior pilots on the 777 especially leaving the company less than a couple of years in.

[dynamicq]

Originally Posted by RexBanner

It’s a common thing nowadays to see junior pilots on the 777 especially leaving the company less than a couple of years in.

Who replaces them? I don’t see external recruitment for them on careers page usually?

[737 Jockey]

Originally Posted by dynamicq

Who replaces them? I don’t see external recruitment for them on careers page usually?

They are literally recruiting for LH FO’s right now and have been for ages.

[U563]

Originally Posted by RexBanner

It’s a common thing nowadays to see junior pilots on the 777 especially leaving the company less than a couple of years in.

presumably the new 3 day off trial will go some way to stemming this

[DuctOvht]

Originally Posted by U563

presumably the new 3 day off trial will go some way to stemming this

It’s not a trial but a permanent change.

[3Greens]

Originally Posted by DuctOvht

It’s not a trial but a permanent change.

it’s a one year trial.

[DuctOvht]

Originally Posted by 3Greens

it’s a one year trial.

Well kinda yes, but also no.

There is a trial, where all things proposed will be phased in and run concurrently. Over the trial period things may be adjusted or tweaked but, according to the newsletters, once the CC feel happy things are working as intended (presumably that we ALL have a better working life but also a better work/life balance) members will be balloted to incorporate the changes as a permanent revision to bidline rules. I can’t find any reference anywhere to the trial period being for 12 months, if it’s been said it doesn’t appear to have been in writing.

So whilst it is correct to say there is a trial period, it will ultimately lead to permanent change. It is unimaginable that people will vote to go back to ‘trip - 2 days off - trip - 2 days off’ forever.

[bda321]

the trial period being for 12 months, if it’s been said it doesn’t appear to have been in writing.

Here it is in writing:

The improvements will be phased in from October 2025 and will run as a 12-month trial initially, to allow us to assess their impact, and how they align with the other HPtE initiatives. Further details on each of these changes can be found below in an update directly from the JSS improvement team.

I do think it will become permanent but I’m not so convinced any vote will lead to the landslide envisaged. A lot of senior people I speak to seem apprehensive. They fear they’ll be paying the price for those at the bottom having better rosters and they won’t have it as cushy as they used to.

[Bison429]

I appreciate this may be an oversimplification, but since most junior 777 trips are 3-day East Coast US pairings followed by (now) 3 days off, is a ‘typical’ junior roster essentially going to be a 3-on, 3-off pattern (outside of leave or training requirements)?

[White Van Driver]

Originally Posted by Bison429

I appreciate this may be an oversimplification, but since most junior 777 trips are 3-day East Coast US pairings followed by (now) 3 days off, is a ‘typical’ junior roster essentially going to be a 3-on, 3-off pattern (outside of leave or training requirements)?

We are still limited to 3x 2-pilot trips per month (as rostered, this doesn't count reserve or carry out). There are some 3pilot 3 day trips but many are 4days.

So you will see a mixture of 3-on, 3-off and 4-on, 3-off patterns.

Of course you can waive these days if you so desire, on a month by month basis. This is useful if you're trying to stack a few days off together... but use at your own risk!

[DuctOvht]

Originally Posted by bda321

Here it is in writing:


I do think it will become permanent but I’m not so convinced any vote will lead to the landslide envisaged. A lot of senior people I speak to seem apprehensive. They fear they’ll be paying the price for those at the bottom having better rosters and they won’t have it as cushy as they used to.

Time will tell.

The issue as I see it is it’s not just the people at the bottom that are having these problems, there are plenty of skippers between 1000-1500 whose rosters look like a living hell. There are also plenty of FO’s around my seniority with command fairly close who are looking at those rosters thinking is it actually worth it considering we’d be at the very bottom of the pile? Many of us are between a rock and a hard place (wanting career progression but not at any cost) and are erring towards ‘not at the minute’, especially those with young families.

IMHO these amendments, on paper at least, are game-changing. I don’t believe it’s a case of taking from the top to feed the bottom, these changes are fundamental to the success of the airline going forward. It wasn’t like this under Bidline (where the more junior pilots would have been on blindlines), JSS has changed things fundamentally and I don’t think we can keep going as we have been. For so many reasons a LH trip (particularly 2 crew) followed by 2 days off repeated as far as one can see into the future is completely unsustainable from a health, family life and fatigue point of view. You can see that particular penny has dropped and although I can’t speak for others, I’d say it’s probably the first time in my close to 15 years with the airline where it feels like there is potential for things to actually change for the better rather than being on a constantly downward spiral. The proof will be in the pudding, but at least there’s a pudding to taste for once.

It’s worth nothing that 3 days will be the ‘Minimum’ base turnaround and you can of course end up with more depending on seniority and what you bid for. Having it as a backstop however is a very very welcome change.

[clarkeysntfc]

So now it’ll be landing from say JFK Monday morning and then earliest they can put you back at work is Friday?
Assuming arrival back at base doesn’t count.

[DuctOvht]

Starting in October that’s correct, unless you choose to waive it.

[wiggy]

Out of pure nosiness and interest can I ask of there are any thoughts on the 3 day MBT making it harder achieve CAP?

[GS-Alpha]

They are also reducing CAP and changing golden day separation rules. Apparently that will make it achievable. They ran feasibly trials within JSS for a few months, but those trails are pretty meaningless because the pilots were not biding in accordance with the new rules. So it will be interesting to see how things go.

[White Van Driver]

Originally Posted by GS-Alpha

They are also reducing CAP and changing golden day separation rules. Apparently that will make it achievable. They ran feasibly trials within JSS for a few months, but those trails are pretty meaningless because the pilots were not biding in accordance with the new rules. So it will be interesting to see how things go.

I'd add to these perfectly good points that I'd hope increased MBTR will reduce fatigue and sickness rates which has a potentially huge impact, I'd guess much bigger than the slightly reduced CAP.