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Retirement

Old 8th Dec 2021, 02:52
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Retirement

In the vain hope that the Moderators do not delete or move this post and in the hope that those who are retiring will think about it, here’s my thoughts as a middle aged, average pilot.

In the last few months my company has had a few senior guys retiring and they’ve gone with nothing said.

They have remained flying throughout the pandemic, being at the top of the seniority list, whilst others have lost their jobs. They could have retired but didn’t.

Their own conscience will have to deal with this for years to come as they, in their 40’s, thought they were retiring at 60 so they’ve had an extra five years.

My main point is that they have left without a word!

In most companies there is a ‘public’ forum for staff and there are other ‘outlets’ available yet these retirees are leaving without a word being spoken about how terrible the job has become in a short space of time.

I hope this post sparks a lively debate because the current retirees have really enjoyed their careers and are now leaving to let the younger guys get on with it.

Selfish? Hopefully the moderators will let you decide.




If you had put it in the most suitable Forum to start with, there would have been no need to move this thread.

But you didn't, and I have 🙈

Senior Pilot

Last edited by Senior Pilot; 9th Dec 2021 at 00:44. Reason: Thread moved from R+N
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Old 8th Dec 2021, 03:50
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Originally Posted by srjumbo747 View Post
In the vain hope that the Moderators do not delete or move this post and in the hope that those who are retiring will think about it, here’s my thoughts as a middle aged, average pilot.
Surely as a 'Senior Jumbo 747' pilot you will set an example and quit so that the new folks can have your job.

The mods tend to delete (or move to a forum with 3 Active Users) any professional pilot stuff these days, it doesn't get the clickbait ad revenue I suppose.
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Old 8th Dec 2021, 04:02
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Ha! S R doesn’t mean senior Dear Chap!
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Old 8th Dec 2021, 05:20
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They have remained flying throughout the pandemic, being at the top of the seniority list, whilst others have lost their jobs. They could have retired but didn’t.

Their own conscience will have to deal with this for years to come as they, in their 40’s, thought they were retiring at 60 so they’ve had an extra five years.
Cry me a river. You want to live by the seniority rules you have to accept its pitfalls as well as the upside, your place on the list for command for example. Perhaps seniority list should be done away with and the upgrade based on merit. Chief pilot would be getting so many invites he'd need a social secretary as folk suck up. Fail to see why anyone should toss their job, irrespective of what they do, so that another can retain theirs. Just because someone is nearing retirement doesn't mean they don't need the cash - people who have seen their retirement fund disappear with airlines going bust, chapter 11, world financial crisis etc etc Why should they say some thing, especially about how bad the job has become?

I'm afraid the lesson I draw from the quote, right or wrong, is that you come across as a Me, Me, Me.
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Old 8th Dec 2021, 06:57
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Not sure what the leavers being referred to are meant to say…

I fit the demographic being described by the OP, and left a certain well known airline (maybe the one the OP is at) last year, before compulsory retirement age, as part of a widespread VR campaign….The company wanted as many a****** out of the door ASAP and quite understandably weren’t going to set up an equivalent of speakers corner in Crew Report to let those leaving have their final words..

Like many I’d hardly been a shrinking violet on the Union forum over the years, had stirred things up a bit on the company forum from time to time and tried to be honest about prospects at the company with anybody who I was communicating with by virtue of this place….

Not sure what else could reasonably be said or done…….
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Old 8th Dec 2021, 07:42
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Originally Posted by wiggy View Post
I fit the demographic being described by the OP, and left a certain well known airline (maybe the one the OP is at) last year, before compulsory retirement age, as part of a widespread VR campaign….The company wanted as many a****** out of the door ASAP and quite understandably weren’t going to set up an equivalent of speakers corner in Crew Report to let those leaving have their final words...
I understand the OP as not referring to VR, but actually those that did not retire early and instead continued throughout the pandemic to mandatory retirement age, only to have to retire now anyway.
Without knowing the country and golden handshake agreements though, it's hard to pick a side.
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Old 8th Dec 2021, 07:51
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Selfish? I guess putting your own livelihood ahead of someone else's is always going to be considered selfish. Fortunately, I don't care if you think my failure to retire at your convenience is selfish.

I have earned my right to continue working as long as it suits me. I reckon this older people must retire is something that comes with the new generation of P2F pilots that think the world owes them a living.
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Old 8th Dec 2021, 08:34
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Originally Posted by TorqueStripe View Post
I understand the OP as not referring to VR, but actually those that did not retire early and instead continued throughout the pandemic to mandatory retirement age, only to have to retire now anyway.
Without knowing the country and golden handshake agreements though, it's hard to pick a side.
I think you’re right, but I’m genuinely interested as to why the OP feels anybody who has retired (for whatever reason) has to stand on a soap box and offer explanations…

Firstly once you are out of the door your knowledge of how good or bad circumstances are at a company has become decays very very rapidly..secondly there have been people issuing warnings for years that some people needed to rose tinted glasses needed to be removed, and/or that various companies were perhaps not as wonderful as was commonly believed…
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Old 8th Dec 2021, 08:55
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In aviation it's always better to go out without a whimper, rather than with a bang!

(It is to be hoped that the OP will also stand down from gainful employment, seeing that we are likely to have another lockdown, in favour of someone else with less seniority who needs a job).


Last edited by ShyTorque; 8th Dec 2021 at 09:53. Reason: grammar
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Old 8th Dec 2021, 09:07
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Seeing as there aren't a lot of jobs at the moment, perhaps it's time for you as a middle-aged average pilot to stand aside for the younger guys too?

Get a grip mate.
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Old 8th Dec 2021, 09:11
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You assume that those who are older with more seniority are in a financial position to leave….
to generously make way for the younger, less senior people who may be disadvantaged short term, but have
a longer term window to recover.

I am sure of lot of pilots have gone on that basis, but those who don’t are not necessarily greedy!
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Old 8th Dec 2021, 09:59
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I find the notion that senior people should retire to "allow" the new wannabies to get a job or the junior staff a promotion is very selfish of the wannabies and juniors. The senior person has invested many years of training and preparation into their job - living in a rented room in the early years or commuting large distances etc etc, - probably before the juniors were even born. That the senior now lives in a big mansion with a new car every year is a testament to their years of hard work.

Having said that we can all think of the boring old fart Captain who only shows up once a month to fly to the best destinations and who should have retired years ago because they can barely see the instruments; have difficulty programming the FMGC, and cannot handle crosswinds any more.

This is in part a consequence of the ever increasing pay with seniority. Why should more years in the same job result in more pay?, (beyond inflation increases). Promotion, yes. Extra responsibilities, yes. More hours, yes. But more money for the same job, flights and same destinations? Very difficult, I imagine, for a very senior person, raking in several hundred grand a year plus pension contributions, to give all that up.

It should probably be decided by our AMEs and on ability in the SIM. If Captain Fred really struggles and his cognitive faculties have declined, then he should be put out to grass. If, however, he keeps himself physically and mentally fit, and can manage a modern jet, then why should he not continue? Very difficult though for a company TRE to make the call that his senior colleague is unfit. That could go either way with favouritism or hate of the candidate. Perhaps the CAA should conduct the SIMs of pilots above a certain age to avoid the TREs knowing the candidates?

As far as retiring people making some sort of statement. Well, if the retiree is popular and throws a party, they can of course get up and thank those who attended, and perhaps the company for many years of happy employment etc. Ditto if the company throws a party for the retiree. But generally, a card is produced by someone and signed by crews and staff wishing Captain Fred a happy retirement, not expecting Fred to make a statement, beyond thanking his colleagues for many happy years and getting him back to his hotel room down route after that dodgy bar where he somehow lost his trousers etc.

In my own employment previous to airlines, I have seen senior people circulate letters about why they are leaving and why the management are failing etc. These just come across as sour grapes, even if true: Either do something within the company to improve the situation, or just quietly move on.

One exception might be if the person was resigning or retiring over serious company safety concerns.

Last edited by Uplinker; 8th Dec 2021 at 10:15.
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Old 8th Dec 2021, 10:11
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That the senior now lives in a big mansion with a new car every year is a testament to their years of hard work.
Crikey, I've been in the wrong job all these years. The last (and only) new car I bought was in 1982!
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Old 8th Dec 2021, 10:16
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I've never bought a new car !
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Old 8th Dec 2021, 10:47
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As a humble ex helo jock retired for 17 years bought a new car 6 months ago, nothing swish, CX-5. ST, working for who you did anything less than a Rolls Royce or Lamborghini woud seem to be slumming.
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Old 8th Dec 2021, 11:43
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Originally Posted by megan View Post
As a humble ex helo jock retired for 17 years bought a new car 6 months ago, nothing swish, CX-5. ST, working for who you did anything less than a Rolls Royce or Lamborghini woud seem to be slumming.
Well, once you know how it really works, it becomes very obvious how they got rich. The market value of my 21 year old, daily driver car is £125 according to my insurer!
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Old 8th Dec 2021, 13:57
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Originally Posted by rudestuff View Post
Seeing as there aren't a lot of jobs at the moment, perhaps it's time for you as a middle-aged average pilot to stand aside for the younger guys too?

Get a grip mate.

well said!
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Old 8th Dec 2021, 20:32
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Hopefully the mods will move this to Terms & Endearment, where it should have properly gone in the first place!
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Old 9th Dec 2021, 00:02
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Or the bin.
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Old 9th Dec 2021, 07:06
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French gliding instructor with Spanish heritage and Parkinson’s in his 70s - enthusiastic..great instructor..pleasure to see him flying..in contrast to some younger sour pusses, not pulling their weight and there for the free flying.
Who ever believed that life was supposed to be fair and balanced.
I’m still enjoying it after more than 50 years but haven’t been paid to do it since 1994..would love to get my arse in a jet again but don’t begrudge those that do..smell the air and stop moaning.
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