FO‘s expectations of a new Captain
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Should the FOs experience, knowledge and thoughts be ignored as is suggested in many posts here (the FO is gear flap operator but only when instructed, wear buttons done up and shave). Should the FO let the captain dig his own holes only to bail him out later? What should the FO do when there really is a good reason to take extra fuel but the captain insists minimum fuel? Should he refuse to operate? Are you going to smack the FOs hand when he can see the approach is becoming massively unstable as he suggests gear? Ignore his calls to go around when you’ve landed too deep on a contaminated wet runway?]
I think you're missing the point. No one is saying suggestions from a FO should be ignored. No one is saying ignore the FOs input on taking extra fuel. Ignore those post, they are trying to throw petrol in the fire on this thread. All that is being said is have a reason. If a FO told me he/she thought we should take extra fuel and gave me a good reason, I'll take as much fuel as needed. If he just wants extra fuel, just to have extra fuel, my CRM comes into play to try and convince him it's not really needed. This is sometimes the biggest task of the day to convince them without making them feel I don't care. I am paid to be responsible to the company and if anyone thinks it's ok to take extra fuel just for the sake taking it, then maybe there're not as professional as they think.
Even though I am a Line Trainer, part of my brief to the FO, safety pilot or trainee is that I can also make mistakes and don't be afraid to speak up and ask what am I doing. The FO is there to make sure I don't make an error and it works both ways. If I mess up, he/she has messed up by not preventing me. Works both ways. I also seek feedback from all colleagues who have been somewhere I have not yet been. I am always learning. I don't know everything. My FO/safety pilot is part of the team. I try to treat them with the respect they deserve and I let them fly as they wish as long as safety is not compromised, a go around is not needed and the company image is not brought into disrepute. I try my best to say nothing and let them fly the sector. I remember very well the number of times I flew when I was a FO and the Captain would keep chirping in "I think you're high" "You need to get down now" As a FO for 8 years, only had one go around because of wind shear and never been unstable, most times a nice CDA onto the G/S. I know what it's like to have a Captain who is nervous and keeps telling you how to fly. It's a pain and is something I try my best to refrain from doing now I am LHS. As mentioned earlier, you may think once you have changed seats from R to L it's easier, it's not. You also have to deal with all sorts in the RHS. Having to keep them on side (making sure I/we don't mess up) means sometimes you have to bite your lip and say nothing. Great thread.
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Surprised at the "no hovering over lever" comments, seems like loss of pride more than anything. Often it's a helpful reminder. Also don't agree that the only reason there are 2 pilots is in case one dies, errors happen a lot more than death/incap. If that was intended as a joke I missed it.
I'd rather people spoke up than watched me dig a hole too deep! And in return I try to do the same.
I'd rather people spoke up than watched me dig a hole too deep! And in return I try to do the same.
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No FO should assume command, but be willing to intervene when absolutely necessary due to ensure critical safety and be confident enough to advocate their point of view. My duty is to hear all inputs from the team, keep an open mind and praise where praise is due.
Peeps need to get away from "My Command, Your command"and "My leg, your leg" ,mentality. On my flightdeck - its OUR leg/task, but ultimately, as skipper, legal responsibility of my crew, pax, freight, aircraft and those I fly over is mine.
Before I ever intervene in the LHS, first question, is this flight safety critical, or is it rapidly deteriorating into a flight safety critical issue?
Second, is it economic? Will try and elicit info rather than "tell" the other seat, as no-one likes having their thought train pulled apart. This is where in depth knowledge of the operation is essential. Case in point, recent departure from mid-west airfield, transatlantic, squalls and plagues of frogs. I had been keeping a close eye on FR24 as well as the online departure board and it was obvious we would not get a clean breakaway with 30+ holding aircraft and about 20 delays stacked. FO wanted to take PLOG. Rather than telling them what to take, I carefully posed the scenario and let him come up with the answer. If done in the right way, the FO will appreciate your honesty and tutelage. He certainly did and asked for further D+G into other scenarios he was interested in. The bottom line for LH, PLOG is not necessarily cost efficient if you run the risk of diverting and dont have the duty to get into destination within a reasonable time frame of connections.
Ive operated with Co-captains before,I usually leave it to the first leg debrief, give them some humble pie but then firmly re-enforce my responsibilities, and theirs and respectfully request that in the name of professionalism, we need to ensure there is no doubt over the correct cockpit gradient. These people can rapidly turn a bad situation into a dangerous one, particularly when their egos out cash their ability and respect of the commander.
Peeps need to get away from "My Command, Your command"and "My leg, your leg" ,mentality. On my flightdeck - its OUR leg/task, but ultimately, as skipper, legal responsibility of my crew, pax, freight, aircraft and those I fly over is mine.
Before I ever intervene in the LHS, first question, is this flight safety critical, or is it rapidly deteriorating into a flight safety critical issue?
Second, is it economic? Will try and elicit info rather than "tell" the other seat, as no-one likes having their thought train pulled apart. This is where in depth knowledge of the operation is essential. Case in point, recent departure from mid-west airfield, transatlantic, squalls and plagues of frogs. I had been keeping a close eye on FR24 as well as the online departure board and it was obvious we would not get a clean breakaway with 30+ holding aircraft and about 20 delays stacked. FO wanted to take PLOG. Rather than telling them what to take, I carefully posed the scenario and let him come up with the answer. If done in the right way, the FO will appreciate your honesty and tutelage. He certainly did and asked for further D+G into other scenarios he was interested in. The bottom line for LH, PLOG is not necessarily cost efficient if you run the risk of diverting and dont have the duty to get into destination within a reasonable time frame of connections.
Ive operated with Co-captains before,I usually leave it to the first leg debrief, give them some humble pie but then firmly re-enforce my responsibilities, and theirs and respectfully request that in the name of professionalism, we need to ensure there is no doubt over the correct cockpit gradient. These people can rapidly turn a bad situation into a dangerous one, particularly when their egos out cash their ability and respect of the commander.
NO one here has suggested that the F/O's lot in life is only to jerk the gear.
One of the problems I see in my current role in simulator work is a tendency for weaker pilots (some are Captains, others F/Os) to become overly-reliant on their support pilot to scrape through their checks.
Hence my comments about pre-emptive behaviour. It's nothing to do with ego - it's all about getting the person in the hot seat to step up to the plate. PM's role should be to stick to SOP, make standard callouts and do whatever non-handling duties the FCOM or Company designates. Obvious errors and omissions need to be brought to the attention of the other pilot. But when it becomes a pattern, something is amiss.
Interesting that some Captains would not allow their F/O to load more than computer fuel because presumably the computer is always right, or defy the FMS and start the descent a little early in order to feel more comfortable with the path, yet would turn a blind eye to breaches of Company uniform and grooming protocols (every company still has such a thing, do they not?)
One of the problems I see in my current role in simulator work is a tendency for weaker pilots (some are Captains, others F/Os) to become overly-reliant on their support pilot to scrape through their checks.
Hence my comments about pre-emptive behaviour. It's nothing to do with ego - it's all about getting the person in the hot seat to step up to the plate. PM's role should be to stick to SOP, make standard callouts and do whatever non-handling duties the FCOM or Company designates. Obvious errors and omissions need to be brought to the attention of the other pilot. But when it becomes a pattern, something is amiss.
Interesting that some Captains would not allow their F/O to load more than computer fuel because presumably the computer is always right, or defy the FMS and start the descent a little early in order to feel more comfortable with the path, yet would turn a blind eye to breaches of Company uniform and grooming protocols (every company still has such a thing, do they not?)
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if you did not manage to work your way up to Captaincy with that level of experience something is wrong with your outfit or you should perhaps question yourself why you are still on the RHS ?
Gender Faculty Specialist
Interesting that some Captains would not allow their F/O to load more than computer fuel because presumably the computer is always right, or defy the FMS and start the descent a little early in order to feel more comfortable with the path, yet would turn a blind eye to breaches of Company uniform and grooming protocols (every company still has such a thing, do they not?)
If the FO is uncomfortable unless he descends 10 miles early then he shouldn’t be in the seat.
If the FO wans extra fuel he can have it...if he can justify carrying it. He can’t have it just because.
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Oh come on is that really how we fly? To ensure the FO feels comfortable? Or with efficiency, discipline and accuracy?
If the FO is uncomfortable unless he descends 10 miles early then he shouldn’t be in the seat.
If the FO wans extra fuel he can have it...if he can justify carrying it. He can’t have it just because.
Your points are valid, yet you seem like the worst kind of captain to pull out of the hat... You should maybe think a little about that. There are several ways to tell a guy the go to hell, but an elegant captain will make his FO look forward to the trip. You Sir, are not one of those...
10 miles is about 75 seconds in time. If a FO needs a little time to keep up or get ahead of the game, a good Captain will allow that. As the FO gains confidence, a good Captain will encourage a decrease in such allowance, all in the name of efficiency. Later a good Captain will demonstrate that even 10 miles after top of descent can be salvaged. TOD is rarely a hard limit. ATC will often change it anyway.
A good Captain will never put his faith totally in the FMS and hopefully will encourage FOs to keep their mental arithmetic going (schools do still teach that, I hope...).
Similarly with fuel. A good Captain will encourage the FO to have a ballpark figure in mind even before looking at the dispatch papers. Ditto take-off weight - Emirates should by now know the value of this.
A good Captain will never put his faith totally in the FMS and hopefully will encourage FOs to keep their mental arithmetic going (schools do still teach that, I hope...).
Similarly with fuel. A good Captain will encourage the FO to have a ballpark figure in mind even before looking at the dispatch papers. Ditto take-off weight - Emirates should by now know the value of this.
Last edited by Mach E Avelli; 7th Aug 2018 at 21:42.
A good captain will encourage his first officer to question what the box is telling him by cross referencing the navaids.Unfortunately modern societies use of technology has led to a generation who trusts technology implicitly. I grew up in an analogue age and still use multiple sources to validate what the box is telling me.
Recently one of my FOs was caught out because of the way he had sequenced the box and hadn’t validated it against the ILS-DME or the VOR on the far end of the runway.The difference in track miles was twelve and it left us a bit high. An orbit sorted it out.
Recently one of my FOs was caught out because of the way he had sequenced the box and hadn’t validated it against the ILS-DME or the VOR on the far end of the runway.The difference in track miles was twelve and it left us a bit high. An orbit sorted it out.
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I would expect a new captain to maintain SOPs and not start creating his own 'better' ones now that he/she is in the left seat ie. "I know its not SOP but this is far more efficient / this is the way XYZ do it".
Also I hope that they understand the difference between being a line captain and a training captain. I have seen new captains who seem to blur the difference and end up trying to fly the airplane through the FO just because the FO is not doing it the same way they would. This often leads to things going tits up because you end up either not knowing who's in control or you have a flight path that is a mixture between the captains and FOs, which normally means its not the correct one given other parameters.
Also I hope that they understand the difference between being a line captain and a training captain. I have seen new captains who seem to blur the difference and end up trying to fly the airplane through the FO just because the FO is not doing it the same way they would. This often leads to things going tits up because you end up either not knowing who's in control or you have a flight path that is a mixture between the captains and FOs, which normally means its not the correct one given other parameters.
Gender Faculty Specialist
Your points are valid, yet you seem like the worst kind of captain to pull out of the hat... You should maybe think a little about that. There are several ways to tell a guy the go to hell, but an elegant captain will make his FO look forward to the trip. You Sir, are not one of those...
Perhaps YOUR points would be valid if we communicated on the flight deck via PPRuNe. Now, back in your box.
Gender Faculty Specialist
10 miles is about 75 seconds in time. If a FO needs a little time to keep up or get ahead of the game, a good Captain will allow that. As the FO gains confidence, a good Captain will encourage a decrease in such allowance, all in the name of efficiency. Later a good Captain will demonstrate that even 10 miles after top of descent can be salvaged. TOD is rarely a hard limit. ATC will often change it anyway.
A good Captain will never put his faith totally in the FMS and hopefully will encourage FOs to keep their mental arithmetic going (schools do still teach that, I hope...).
Similarly with fuel. A good Captain will encourage the FO to have a ballpark figure in mind even before looking at the dispatch papers. Ditto take-off weight - Emirates should by now know the value of this.
A good Captain will never put his faith totally in the FMS and hopefully will encourage FOs to keep their mental arithmetic going (schools do still teach that, I hope...).
Similarly with fuel. A good Captain will encourage the FO to have a ballpark figure in mind even before looking at the dispatch papers. Ditto take-off weight - Emirates should by now know the value of this.
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It goes like this:
" Son , we are taking extra fuel , how much and why?"
Most are happy, if not all.
I take plog fuel ca 20% of the time.
I am not a glider pilot.
I have never diverted due to fuel and never will.
Some dingbat here will shortly call me , old , inefficient , but not bold.
I committed once in to Gatwick and landed with 1900kg. no drama, but a divert to STN would certainly have been.
SOP , policy and statistics are fine and dandy but Murphy has a tendency to book a seat when he see a chance to stack some Swiss Chees.
I did take plog fuel the day I got a Spit Flap on approach a few years ago. Stuck at 0.4 and 0.8, with 24 minutes of QRH and a rather odd attitude on approach.
Had fuel for another try, if needed and to alternate.
Nailed it on the first try!
We do LIDO and it is fantastically accurate ,but there is little margin for unforeseen delay runway change etc.
Pilotbrief was way off the mark at times, mostly fuel rich.
So if a FO wants plog fuel he better get it right, every time.
Regards
Cpt B
" Son , we are taking extra fuel , how much and why?"
Most are happy, if not all.
I take plog fuel ca 20% of the time.
I am not a glider pilot.
I have never diverted due to fuel and never will.
Some dingbat here will shortly call me , old , inefficient , but not bold.
I committed once in to Gatwick and landed with 1900kg. no drama, but a divert to STN would certainly have been.
SOP , policy and statistics are fine and dandy but Murphy has a tendency to book a seat when he see a chance to stack some Swiss Chees.
I did take plog fuel the day I got a Spit Flap on approach a few years ago. Stuck at 0.4 and 0.8, with 24 minutes of QRH and a rather odd attitude on approach.
Had fuel for another try, if needed and to alternate.
Nailed it on the first try!
We do LIDO and it is fantastically accurate ,but there is little margin for unforeseen delay runway change etc.
Pilotbrief was way off the mark at times, mostly fuel rich.
So if a FO wants plog fuel he better get it right, every time.
Regards
Cpt B