Airline gender pay gap
Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 286
Likes: 1
From: N/A
Ah well, nothing a bit of positive discrimination can't fix.
Good luck to all you ladies applying, I'm sure you'll feel very proud competing on equal terms.
https://www.pilotcareernews.com/thom...det-programme/
Good luck to all you ladies applying, I'm sure you'll feel very proud competing on equal terms.
https://www.pilotcareernews.com/thom...det-programme/
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 182
Likes: 29
From: where I lay my hat
Also https://careers.easyjet.com/pilots/f...opportunities/
"Requirements of the role" - No penis
"Requirements of the role" - No penis
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 460
Likes: 19
From: A little south of the "Black Sheep" brewery
In order to 'equalise' pay, are there any sponsorships aimed at recruiting more men as cabin crew? ... No, I thought not.
Surely there should be valid equality legal challenges against men being excluded from these airline sponsorships solely on the basis of gender?
Surely there should be valid equality legal challenges against men being excluded from these airline sponsorships solely on the basis of gender?
Joined: Oct 2016
Posts: 146
Likes: 0
From: North London at last
Hmm. Positive discrimination is encouraged in the UK to address historical or cultural imbalance. The issue with women as pilots is far more to do with the cost of training and the bank of mummy and daddy not being opened so readily for Prudence. Pay and opportunities on applying and throughout their career in aviation, in the UK at least, are the same. Indeed, opportunities maybe in favour of women. Gender pay gaps are measured against jobs of similar importance/difficulty and not across a corporate structure. BA or Easy are not required to measure a gender pay gap between pilots and cabin crew but independently. So there is no gender pay gap so these companies do not need to worry.
What is likely to be of more interest after we get over the current bubble of misogynist hunting is the number of black pilots against the population average.
What is likely to be of more interest after we get over the current bubble of misogynist hunting is the number of black pilots against the population average.
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 453
Likes: 0
From: UK
I would say ageism is a bigger problem than sexism in the aviation industry. It's well known that airlines favour the younger candidates for low hour positions. A newly qualified pilot the wrong side of 40 struggles much more to get a foot in the door. I therefore look forward to the launch of a sponsorship scheme for older pilots in order to redress the balance and to promote age equality.....but I won't hold my breath.
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 460
Likes: 19
From: A little south of the "Black Sheep" brewery
I couldn't care what 'group' any pilot belongs to, can they fly??!! The rest is just waffle. Do the same percentage of these 'other groups' really want to be pilots? That is a far, far more fundamental matter than trying to tinker around with blatantly discriminatory 'engineering' of the system.
Joined: Oct 2016
Posts: 146
Likes: 0
From: North London at last
I couldn't care what 'group' any pilot belongs to, can they fly??!! The rest is just waffle. Do the same percentage of these 'other groups' really want to be pilots? That is a far, far more fundamental matter than trying to tinker around with blatantly discriminatory 'engineering' of the system.
Gender Faculty Specialist
Joined: Mar 2002
Aviation Qualifications: ATPL
Posts: 2,325
Likes: 432
From: In your head.
The gender pay gap is defined as the difference in median pay between men and women. The Office for National Statistics headline measure for the gender pay gap is calculated as the difference between median gross hourly earnings (excluding overtime) as a proportion of median gross hourly earnings (excluding overtime) for men. But crucially this measure does not take into account equal pay for equal work.
Joined: Apr 2013
Posts: 163
Likes: 18
From: London
I'll just leave this here ...
FTEJerez & Thomas Cook Airlines announce new Airline Cadet programme and Scholarship for Female Pilots ? FTEJerez | News
FTEJerez & Thomas Cook Airlines announce new Airline Cadet programme and Scholarship for Female Pilots ? FTEJerez | News
Joined: Jan 2013
Posts: 73
Likes: 0
From: Europe
Whilst I have a natural dislike of positive discrimination I would ask why you would think that black children would not dream of being an airline pilot ? And if they do, what stops them from fulfilling their dream ? Then, when you know the answers to these questions you have to decide whether it is right or wrong to tinker with the system.
The same cost applies to everyone else, no matter what skin colour, religion, gender etc.... they are.
Why should there be schemes that benefit only certain skin colour or gender when everyone in Europe has the same access to gain the qualification if they can pay for it?
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 1,088
Likes: 7
From: England
I agree with the gist of everything above, but look at the airline gender pay gap (mainly male pilots vs. mainly female cabin crew) in light of the Tesco case.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business...n-sight-years/
Equality of opportunity seems right and just, but it seems equality of outcome is the new goal.
Injust? Crazy? World gone mad?
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business...n-sight-years/
Equality of opportunity seems right and just, but it seems equality of outcome is the new goal.
Injust? Crazy? World gone mad?
Last edited by ZeBedie; 8th March 2018 at 18:38.
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 460
Likes: 19
From: A little south of the "Black Sheep" brewery
FlipFlapFlop, I had a very interesting chat with someone who grew up on a council housing estate due to his parents having fallen on hard times. He had exactly the same money, etc., in the family as all the surrounding families. However he had something that he clearly saw that the other kids lacked: ambition. His parents had the same 'financial' wealth as the surrounding parents but they encouraged curiosity and ambition, something that was lacking in the surrounding parents. He was telling me this in connection with the push at the time to get an equal percentage of children from 'deprived' backgrounds to university as those from 'advantaged' backgrounds. And he said it simply wasn't going to happen because those kids just didn't have the ambition. (He doesn't have any academic qualifications himself, but holds a high position as an airline pilot.) So don't look at any group and see the problems there, look at the curiosity and ambition promoted by the parents; that is worth more than money. (And by the way, in our family the women have higher academic qualifications than the men!) And then look at the kids themselves: I would say that in many cases, choosing not to become an airline pilot probably shows a level of intelligent perception. Forced social engineering with 'positive discrimination' (an oxymoron if ever there was one!) is bad. Encouragement and open ambition is good.
I would like to see men initiate a legal challenge against gender discrimination in the sponsorship mentioned above.
I would like to see men initiate a legal challenge against gender discrimination in the sponsorship mentioned above.
Joined: Oct 2016
Posts: 146
Likes: 0
From: North London at last
The Equality Act 2010 gives women (and men) a right to equal pay for equal work.
The roles of flight crew and cabin crew are completely different. They are not compared to each other and are not lumped together to calculate a gender pay gap. The Act requires all companies over 250 employees to publish data. In the case of airlines they will be required to show if there is a gap for pilots and cabin crew separately from each other. It is not a single figure per employer.
I was not supporting positive discrimination. I thought I had made that clear. But there is something wrong when huge parts of the population are debarred from a career because of the cost of entry.
The roles of flight crew and cabin crew are completely different. They are not compared to each other and are not lumped together to calculate a gender pay gap. The Act requires all companies over 250 employees to publish data. In the case of airlines they will be required to show if there is a gap for pilots and cabin crew separately from each other. It is not a single figure per employer.
I was not supporting positive discrimination. I thought I had made that clear. But there is something wrong when huge parts of the population are debarred from a career because of the cost of entry.
Gender Faculty Specialist
Joined: Mar 2002
Aviation Qualifications: ATPL
Posts: 2,325
Likes: 432
From: In your head.
https://www.gov.uk/guidance/gender-p...r-calculations
Not according to government guidelines on calculating the gap. No mention whatsoever of differing jobs.
Not according to government guidelines on calculating the gap. No mention whatsoever of differing jobs.
Hourly pay figures you must calculate
You must calculate your organisation’s gender pay gap in hourly pay, as both a:
mean figure (the difference between the average of men’s and women’s pay)
median figure (the difference between the midpoints in the ranges of men’s and women’s pay)
You must calculate your organisation’s gender pay gap in hourly pay, as both a:
mean figure (the difference between the average of men’s and women’s pay)
median figure (the difference between the midpoints in the ranges of men’s and women’s pay)
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 1,089
Likes: 38
From: East Sussex
I think the rot set in with positive discrimination when Jessica Starmer decided the rules around junior pilot proficiency didn't apply to her just because she was a woman.
https://www.theguardian.com/money/20...workandcareers
https://www.theguardian.com/money/20...workandcareers
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 540
Likes: 33
From: UK
Positive discrimination vs Positive action
Positive discrimination is illegal in the EU, positive action is not. The problem companies appear to have is telling the difference. So encouraging certain under representated groups to apply is fine but preventing others from applying as a way of achieving the same thing is a no-no. My local police force fell foul of that one!