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Old 11th Oct 2017, 21:40   #1 (permalink)


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Ryanair - LinkedIn Message

Did anyone else receive one of these messages from one of their Pilot Recruiters. Talk about aggressively going for the jugular, they don't see to like Norwegian.

Darren Kinsella
Pilot Recruitment Specialist at Ryanair
Message List
Today
Darren Kinsella sent the following message at 8:53 PM
View Darren’s profile
Ryanair

Dear Simon,

I hope you’re well and you don’t mind me contacting you.
As I’m sure you know we suffered a major rostering failure recently. Having fixed it, we are rolling out significant pay increases for Ryanair pilots of up to €22,000 / £22,000 for Captains.

With our new improved pay deals, our Captains can earn 26% more than Jet2 and 20% more than Norwegian. I have attached full details of our offering with sample comparison tables so you can see the full pay breakdown for yourself.

If you’re interested in discussing this further, including how you can increase your earnings by over 20% from 01 Nov, please contact us today. We would be delighted to hear from you and would be happy to address any questions you may have.

Darren Kinsella
Pilot Recruiter at Ryanair
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File Type: jpg NEWSLETTER (002).jpg (934.8 KB, 899 views)
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Old 12th Oct 2017, 00:31   #2 (permalink)
 
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Wow, they've lost their minds (and calculators)
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Old 12th Oct 2017, 00:37   #3 (permalink)
 
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Leopards never change their spots. Divide and rule, the oldest bullying management trick in the book.

Last edited by Dan_Brown; 12th Oct 2017 at 01:00.
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Old 12th Oct 2017, 00:59   #4 (permalink)
 
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That math doesn't add up. He should have said, "we might add up to more"... That is a bad example of roster pay comparison.
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Old 12th Oct 2017, 03:09   #5 (permalink)
 
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Whilst I understand that their salary model is weighted towards sector pay - I love how all this information tells me is how as an FO my basic salary is as close as may well be 3 times what they are offering and I would still receive that if I worked 100 hours (or less...) the whole year. SO tempting....
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Old 12th Oct 2017, 03:26   #6 (permalink)
aox
 
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Tell them you got a better offer:

It is my distinct pleasure to write you again and as you are well aware many foreigners have invested thousands of United States Dollars into Nigeria transactions in Hopeless Dreams to have none of them become a reality.

Right now, as directed by our secretary general Antonio Guterres, We have agreed with the Nigeria Government that One Hundred Thousand United States Dollars Only would be paid to you through the Western Union Money Transfer Via special arrangement as first installment.

This is to enable you have enough funds to pay for the Tax Clearance and bank charges before you will receive the balance of your funds. Please take note that you will pay US$95 only, being Notarization fee and this is the only financial obligation that you will undertake to receive the One Hundred Thousand United States Dollars Only through the Western Union Money Transfer.

Lastly,i will like you to reconfirm your information to me such as your full name, address and telephone number so that I will proceed with your Western Union Money Transfer within the next 24 hrs and the transaction information will be released to you.
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Old 12th Oct 2017, 08:08   #7 (permalink)
 
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When will they realise that by the time someone has made the very difficult decision to leave, almost no amount of money will make them change their mind since all trust in the company to provide for them and their family has evaporated.

Been there, done that.
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Old 12th Oct 2017, 09:01   #8 (permalink)
 
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Looks pretty good for only 18 hours a week.
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Old 12th Oct 2017, 10:50   #9 (permalink)
 
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Once again, utter bs and propaganda from them. Useless.

Last edited by GScapture; 12th Oct 2017 at 11:10.
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Old 12th Oct 2017, 10:57   #10 (permalink)
 
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Someone explain to me what the productivity package is. Selling X amount of days off/year? In that case it would have been fair to include that as well for the other airlines they are comparing to. I heard Norwegian has paid double money for every off day that they've bought this summer.
If someone falls for this, be very careful and make sure you definitely get what you are promised. As someone said in the other thread, I think majority of the bases have poorer base agreements than what they are using for advertising on LinkedIn.
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Old 12th Oct 2017, 11:06   #11 (permalink)
bfr
 
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Maybe other airlines don't pay expenses because pilots don't have to pay for uniform, medical, car park, company ID, etc. Therefore they should remove another 6000 from the total...
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Old 12th Oct 2017, 11:40   #12 (permalink)
 
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Never has such a saga brought so much pleasure!

I genuinely wish those of you working for RYR the best of luck in the search for better employment. I suspect that only when you start working for a company that treats you better, will you realise what a rotten deal it has been in the past.

You owe RYR NOTHING. Look after number one. You might be in your comfort zone doing the job you've done for the last year or two, but make the move from RYR now and you will be far better for it in the future.
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Old 12th Oct 2017, 11:40   #13 (permalink)
 
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So, using their own figures, take the expenses and the one off Productivity Bonus (that you probably won't get) off and hey presto it's the same (with a slight difference in pension contributions). Smoke and mirrors.

In fact a quick check of PPJN shows the jet2 information is wrong and all the Norwegian benefits (LOL, Bupa etc) are not included. Also by all accounts Norwegian are due a 3% pay increase in January that puts Ryanair back in 3rd place.

The worst part is there's no collective bargaining, no rostering agreement, no protection.

I'm out of here shortly. Good luck to anyone who falls for this.
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Old 12th Oct 2017, 11:45   #14 (permalink)
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cirrussy View Post
Never has such a saga brought so much pleasure!

I genuinely wish those of you working for RYR the best of luck in the search for better employment. I suspect that only when you start working for a company that treats you better, will you realise what a rotten deal it has been in the past.

You owe RYR NOTHING. Look after number one. You might be in your comfort zone doing the job you've done for the last year or two, but make the move from RYR now and you will be far better for it in the future.
Amen for that. These kind of "improved" offers with twisted "productivity"-bullshit packages proves that the company still doesn't get it. You don't hire people telling them fairytales.
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Old 12th Oct 2017, 13:32   #15 (permalink)
 
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Good things to come

I was very pleased to receive this invitation from Ryanair, it heralds the start of a headhunting war from which the pilots can only benefit .

Other airlines will have to up their game to attract and retain staff, I now look forward to my representatives holding a much better negotiating hand when looking to improve T&C’s.
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Old 12th Oct 2017, 14:04   #16 (permalink)
 
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Serving captain refutes allegations that EERC is not an internal body, offers to meet

https://www.pilots-unite.com/captain...ry-management/

... management.

Quote:
This letter was hand delivered today, 11-October-2017 to Ryanair headquarters in Dublin by Captain Imelda Comer. Michael O’Leary, Eddie Wilson and Ryanair management have consistently said that the EERC is not an internal group in Ryanair. They have said they will only meet with Ryanair pilots – now let them prove it!

Mr Michael O’Leary CEO
Ryanair
cc: Mr Eddie Willson, Mr Diarmuid Rogers, Mr Declan Ryan

Dear Michael,

I am a Ryanair Captain and I write to you as a conduit to enable constructive engagement between Ryanair management and the pilot body. The aim of this letter is to provide the company with a Ryanair pilot as you have requested, through which a constructive dialogue can take place.

As you know, the pilots issued a number of correspondences to the company, endorsed by the ERCs in 60 bases. Regrettably the company has either ignored these or claimed they were not from legitimate Ryanair pilots. I wish to confirm they were from the European ERC group which is exclusively made up of Ryanair pilots from several countries. The interim EERC represents the views of the collective pilot body, which wishes to proactively and constructively engage with the company to help resolve the current difficulties that continue to weigh on all of us.

The pilots’ representatives are concerned about their security when they reveal their identities, in a representative context which you have set yourself against. This point was addressed in the interim EERC’s last letter to you. I restate them here for clarity:

1. No legal action will be taken against any EERC member in the performance of their representative work.

2. There will be no scheduling of additional line checks or simulator checks. Any unexpected negative outcome from routine checks will be subject to independent scrutiny/adjudication by an independent third party acceptable to both parties.

3. Any disciplinary action, taken for any reason, will be handled by an independent third party, acceptable to both parties.

4. Representatives’ base will not change unless requested by the pilot involved.

5. Rostered hours per month for representative’s will not be less than their average monthly hours from the year prior to becoming a representative, or the average hours for their base (whichever is higher). In the meantime it will be pointed that the EERC or reps will not suffer any kind of continuous unfavourable duties.

6. Ryanair will provide rostered time off (paid) to engage in representative activities on behalf of Ryanair pilots.

7. EERC members will NOT be assigned unpaid leave, unless they request it.

8. These conditions will apply for at least one year following the cessation of being a Representative.

If the company provides written assurances as to the security of pilot representatives, they will also be happy to disclose their identities and fully engage in meaningful and constructive discussions to resolve the outstanding company difficulties.

I would also like to address the concerns of my colleagues in the whole pilot body. The interim EERC is a group of Ryanair pilots, formed on an interim basis, to provide a channel through which the whole pilot body can speak with one voice to the company. On the 22nd September, 60 bases signed two letters addressed to the company, setting out the pilots’ requirements to address the ongoing difficulties. Again for clarity, I restate them here:

Permanent local contracts – following national laws and rights.
Co-ordination between national and regional pilot teams – recognised as negotiating partners.
Benchmarking of conditions with regional competitor airlines to stem the exit of pilots.
New contracts, properly negotiated, by 01 Jan 2018 – with agreed interim arrangements if negotiations are delayed.
Pilots are pilots – they will therefore have their own professional assistance for any negotiations.
Pilots want Ryanair to succeed and thrive. They want to minimise cancellations and will support as much as possible every effort to achieve this stability.
Pilots will surrender some of their leave to help resolve the current problems, but only in the context of the changes outlined above.
The interim EERC members have listened carefully to the wide range of discussions taking place in the whole group, while also carrying out our flying duties the same as every other pilot. This is clearly challenging for all of us. When the company insists that it will only engage with its own pilots, we have respected that view. However, it is also quite obvious that your company view immediately places all pilots at a significant disadvantage, creating an unreasonable imbalance in any such interactions. Your insistence on only negotiating with pilots, and only dealing with individual bases, is clearly not in the interests of pilots. Your continued insistence on both approaches move everyone further away from a sustainable solution. It may deliver you a short term fix in a handful of bases, but it will not resolve the deep seated issues that have been imposed on pilots over the last ten years, and have cumulatively given rise to our most recent difficulties.

We are pilots first, while your managers are managers first. Negotiating is the primary job of managers – safe flying is a pilot’s primary job. In addition, all our time is taken up with flying duties, leaving no time to properly prepare for or carry out an additional task that you insist only pilots must fulfil. In addition, the complexity of pilots living, operating and moving around Europe exposes us to legal, financial, income tax and social insurance considerations that we do not have expertise in. For these reasons we have reserved the right to seek any assistance we require to support us in our interactions and negotiations with the company. We believe this is an entirely reasonable position for the pilot body and its representatives at every level to adopt.

To date, the company has refused to acknowledge the right of the pilots to engage as a collective group. The company insists that you will only engage one base at a time. I respectfully suggest that this approach has failed the company, as evidenced by the shortage of pilots that has led to the cancellations crisis. It has also failed the pilots, as evidenced by the departure of so many colleagues and the short average length of pilots serving in Ryanair, as reported in Ryanair’s annual reports.

It is regrettable that the company’s response to date shows that you have not listened to the pilots’ voice so far. Ryanair’s way of interacting with its pilots is not in line with the normal practices of any of the companies to which our colleagues have gone in increasing numbers. This needs to change to enable progress to be made.

The offers that you have made to bases in the last 48 hours have not been negotiated with anyone; do not reflect any of the concerns or requirements set out by the pilots; are confusing and in some places potentially misleading; and do not cover all pilots in Ryanair. This indicates that you have so far missed the point of what pilots require, in order to help resolve the company difficulties. The old model has brought us to the current difficulties. Repeating the mistakes of the past will not help anyone to move beyond or resolve these difficulties to find future solutions.

For these reasons, properly informed negotiations need to take place, in which the issues and concerns of all parties can be fully discussed, in the interests of the earliest resolution for our passengers, our pilots and the whole company.

I have been requested by my colleagues, both inside and outside our interim EERC group, to communicate this message to you, and to offer earliest negotiations in which pilots and their advisors can sit as equals at the table, to find the best solutions to enable all of us to look forward to a brighter future.

Yours Sincerely,

Captain Imelda Comer

Please reply to [email protected]
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Old 12th Oct 2017, 14:17   #17 (permalink)
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jonesyinthesky View Post
Dear Simon,

I hope you’re well and you don’t mind me contacting you.
As I’m sure you know we suffered a major rostering failure recently. Having fixed it, we are rolling out significant pay increases for Ryanair pilots of up to €22,000 / £22,000 for Captains.

With our new improved pay deals, our Captains can earn 26% more than Jet2 and 20% more than Norwegian. I have attached full details of our offering with sample comparison tables so you can see the full pay breakdown for yourself.

If you’re interested in discussing this further, including how you can increase your earnings by over 20% from 01 Nov, please contact us today. We would be delighted to hear from you and would be happy to address any questions you may have.

Darren Kinsella
Pilot Recruiter at Ryanair

Are they serious!

I'm sorry, but I find this extremely disrespectful towards any Pilot, this just shows me how demeaning a pilot is seen at RYR.

I understand MOL speaks like that, but is just because he is a total (pardon my french); but as we can see, the rest of the company also behaves like that, I mean HR contacting you in that way?!! it just confirms what everyone is saying...

well, following Cirrusy post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cirrussy View Post
I genuinely wish those of you working for RYR the best of luck in the search for better employment. I suspect that only when you start working for a company that treats you better, will you realise what a rotten deal it has been in the past.

You owe RYR NOTHING. Look after number one. You might be in your comfort zone doing the job you've done for the last year or two, but make the move from RYR now and you will be far better for it in the future.
A big and loud AMEN to it.
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Old 12th Oct 2017, 15:19   #18 (permalink)
 
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Money, money, money.

The answer to everything in life is not just money.

If you make it that way then your foundations are very weak.

Stan, thought you might like that one!
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Old 12th Oct 2017, 15:34   #19 (permalink)
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Can737 View Post
And here is the answer from MoL....
Pilot who has worked with Ryanair for over 10 years criticises negotiations in letter to Michael O?Leary - Independent.ie

Quote:
This letter from the so-called “EERC” is entirely disingenuous and is signed by a contractor pilot who has already resigned and is leaving Ryanair on 31st October as she confirmed she is moving to Asia. We will not be corresponding with, or replying to, the claims made by this so-called “EERC”/RPG/REPA or any other front set up by competitor pilot unions," Ryanair said in a statement.
"If Ryanair pilots wish to negotiate pay increases of up to €22,000 p.a. or anything else with the airline, they are free to do so at all times through the existing base ERC structures, which have been validated by the Supreme Court of Ireland and have operated successfully for over 25 years without any invented claims about pilot “security”.

"Ryanair wishes Ms Comer every success with her planned move to Asia."
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Old 12th Oct 2017, 16:18   #20 (permalink)
 
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There's a lot of fuzzy math in that proposal.
Not a straight comparison by any stretch.
They say "We pay more...but you have hoops to jump through and under certain circumstances only" and those hoops are always moving. I would NEVER trust MOL with my career!
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