I'm thinking of ejecting. Any last hail Marys out there?
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A viable alternative, if you have a suitable type rating, is to go contracting.
Wish I'd done it years ago.
Now picking up nearly twice what I used to get with a well known Big Airline that Flys to Cities, no stress, enjoying the work and happier than I ever was at my previous organised slavery employer.
Had to learn to be a pilot again, which took a little while. BACF guys will understand.
It's not for everyone, but if it suits YOU, ya'll look back and wonder why you waited.....
Wish I'd done it years ago.
Now picking up nearly twice what I used to get with a well known Big Airline that Flys to Cities, no stress, enjoying the work and happier than I ever was at my previous organised slavery employer.
Had to learn to be a pilot again, which took a little while. BACF guys will understand.
It's not for everyone, but if it suits YOU, ya'll look back and wonder why you waited.....
Interesting thread.
You always have to be careful in industries where they put you in a uniform. Usually, it means they are going to shaft you in some way: think security guards, armed forces, cabin crew, pilots.....
Do all those complaining of fatigue actually put in fatigue reports? That would be a start, (and I include myself in that). Fatigue when driving home is still fatigue caused by the rostering.
When I told my previous airline boss that working 6 on 2 off and starting on earlies, finishing on lates, was so fatiguing, he said you don't work that pattern as much as you think you do. (We did, so I left).
You always have to be careful in industries where they put you in a uniform. Usually, it means they are going to shaft you in some way: think security guards, armed forces, cabin crew, pilots.....
Do all those complaining of fatigue actually put in fatigue reports? That would be a start, (and I include myself in that). Fatigue when driving home is still fatigue caused by the rostering.
When I told my previous airline boss that working 6 on 2 off and starting on earlies, finishing on lates, was so fatiguing, he said you don't work that pattern as much as you think you do. (We did, so I left).
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When I told my previous airline boss that working 6 on 2 off and starting on earlies, finishing on lates, was so fatiguing, he said you don't work that pattern as much as you think you do. (We did, so I left).
I once had a discussion with my C.P. We were rostered the minimum 8 days off per 28. It didn't matter if there was any work to do or not, only 8 days off. Sometime there were stupid days of positioning, single sector flight, taxi home. A very long day to achieve very little; but it had to be a duty day: or endless SBY's. I suggested that, as Ops worked 4 on 4 off with late & early shifts and a more restful duty roster; the more so considering they were not locked in a tiny box, the pilots might also deserve a shift pattern of days on/off.
"You don't work shifts. Case closed."
We did, so I left.
I once had a discussion with my C.P. We were rostered the minimum 8 days off per 28. It didn't matter if there was any work to do or not, only 8 days off. Sometime there were stupid days of positioning, single sector flight, taxi home. A very long day to achieve very little; but it had to be a duty day: or endless SBY's. I suggested that, as Ops worked 4 on 4 off with late & early shifts and a more restful duty roster; the more so considering they were not locked in a tiny box, the pilots might also deserve a shift pattern of days on/off.
"You don't work shifts. Case closed."
We did, so I left.
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I too, had a similar experience.
At my first employer, Loganair, they were very easy about days off. If they didn't need you, they put you OFF.
However, that was in 1996......
After that, it was very much as described above, and with a very clear emphasis on how overpaid we all were.
I left.
At my first employer, Loganair, they were very easy about days off. If they didn't need you, they put you OFF.
However, that was in 1996......
After that, it was very much as described above, and with a very clear emphasis on how overpaid we all were.
I left.
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I read a lot of references to "hanging in there" for a big shiny jet and high salary, but honestly I would be careful. I would never try to quench a fellow aviator's passion but, if you are ready to walk away right now, you will be sick to your back teeth of the whole lifestyle in another 10 years if you stay..... long haul command or not. I am mid forties and working long haul for a very well respected carrier in Asia.......and I am done. At what should be the peak of my career, I have come to the tough realization that it is a mundane, thankless job with no scope for creativity, and it destroys any semblance of a normal family and/or social life. Now, it was all those things 20 years ago also, but with age comes perspective I suppose. For me it is time to let go and enjoy family and friends. I took a 2 year break a number of years ago. I know I will not miss it one bit.
Whatever you decide, best of luck.
Whatever you decide, best of luck.
In 49 years of commercial aviation I was fired once, made redundant once, kicked out of one country during a revolution and saw three companies go belly up.
But I had a ball. No regrets about any of it, not even the financial losses (though they hurt at the time).
My last flight ended with the third bankruptcy, but I knew it was coming. Since then, I have not missed it one bit. I sleep much better knowing I don't have to tumble out of bed at o' dark thirty. I eat proper food and I choose to do as little or much with my day as the mood takes.
However, it is nice to remain associated via part time simulator work. But if someone offered me a flying gig, no way would I go back.
But I had a ball. No regrets about any of it, not even the financial losses (though they hurt at the time).
My last flight ended with the third bankruptcy, but I knew it was coming. Since then, I have not missed it one bit. I sleep much better knowing I don't have to tumble out of bed at o' dark thirty. I eat proper food and I choose to do as little or much with my day as the mood takes.
However, it is nice to remain associated via part time simulator work. But if someone offered me a flying gig, no way would I go back.
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Bail Out, Eject?
Only YOU can make the choice.
After 35+ years in a very different profession, one much loved, the toxic overhead became too much. I bailed out years early simply because I could. Part of my thinking was that I could return within 3-4 years if I really missed it or truly needed to. Nuts! Pushing 64, I've been 'retired' since late '08, work harder that I ever have before, and would not go back at 2x the income. It worked for me and perfectly. For you, only you can decide. The only real advice that I can offer is pay attention to your feelings and QOL standards. If jumping it the right course, go for it.
Having a plan won't hurt, but if you have other skills or interests, use them. If you are seriously concerned about money, wait a few or five years, ,save like a chipmunk, cut expenses to the bone and reconsider... You sound a bit young, so you have better options than I did. Use them!
Many pilots or so committed that they cannot consider anything else. Most of the really smart ones always have a "Plan B" in their back pocket. (Loss of medical certificate, for example..) Make a "Plan B" and when able, consider again. Good luck!! If your Quality of Life (QOL) is not up to standards, make a plan to FIX IT. You do have choices...
After 35+ years in a very different profession, one much loved, the toxic overhead became too much. I bailed out years early simply because I could. Part of my thinking was that I could return within 3-4 years if I really missed it or truly needed to. Nuts! Pushing 64, I've been 'retired' since late '08, work harder that I ever have before, and would not go back at 2x the income. It worked for me and perfectly. For you, only you can decide. The only real advice that I can offer is pay attention to your feelings and QOL standards. If jumping it the right course, go for it.
Having a plan won't hurt, but if you have other skills or interests, use them. If you are seriously concerned about money, wait a few or five years, ,save like a chipmunk, cut expenses to the bone and reconsider... You sound a bit young, so you have better options than I did. Use them!
Many pilots or so committed that they cannot consider anything else. Most of the really smart ones always have a "Plan B" in their back pocket. (Loss of medical certificate, for example..) Make a "Plan B" and when able, consider again. Good luck!! If your Quality of Life (QOL) is not up to standards, make a plan to FIX IT. You do have choices...
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There seems to be a worrying amount of guys on here saying how tired, knackered, dead-on-their-feet they are. I am not a pilot (yet) but will be starting training very shortly, and just wondered what makes people so tired?
Please don't jump down my throat but I'm struggling to see how people can be so tired they had to pull over at road services 20 mins away from home after a shift as one poster mentioned. Surely you can't be that tired? I mean let's say you flew 900 hours a year, and doubled that for ground duties ect (I don't know exactly how much that would be but I can't see it being more than that) that's still 1800 hours per year, considerably less than many other professions that involve a lot of physical work also.
I can understand that early mornings are hard work, and certainly 12 hour days are very tiring but these are by no means unique to professional flying.
Again I'm not disputing that people are very tired, and I may well be completely missing the point as to the reasons why they are so please excuse my ignorance but if anyone could explain exactly what's causing it it would be very helpful, mainly to help me make an informed choice as to whether a professional pilot career is truly what I want.
Please don't jump down my throat but I'm struggling to see how people can be so tired they had to pull over at road services 20 mins away from home after a shift as one poster mentioned. Surely you can't be that tired? I mean let's say you flew 900 hours a year, and doubled that for ground duties ect (I don't know exactly how much that would be but I can't see it being more than that) that's still 1800 hours per year, considerably less than many other professions that involve a lot of physical work also.
I can understand that early mornings are hard work, and certainly 12 hour days are very tiring but these are by no means unique to professional flying.
Again I'm not disputing that people are very tired, and I may well be completely missing the point as to the reasons why they are so please excuse my ignorance but if anyone could explain exactly what's causing it it would be very helpful, mainly to help me make an informed choice as to whether a professional pilot career is truly what I want.
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rivet squeezer……
short answer to your conundrum is No, its not the right career choice. Guess that someone is about to stump up £110k to pay for your training. Then you will take a crap job paying nothing in the hope that one day it will get better. But every day that passes and with every additional new entrant who has paid for his seat the bean counters rub their hands harder and harder while they find new ways to make life that bit more intolerable than before.
When you grow up and have a few less hormones coursing through your body you will realise that after 20 years of 4.30 starts and 21.00 return for 3 days then 2 12.00 starts with 02.00 return can be a bit tiring. And that is if you are lucky enough to get a UK post.
In short, the first few weeks will be fine. It is fun for a bit and you are sitting in a shinny new jet and will have a new iPhone. But the T and Cs are only going one way and it won't be in your favour.
short answer to your conundrum is No, its not the right career choice. Guess that someone is about to stump up £110k to pay for your training. Then you will take a crap job paying nothing in the hope that one day it will get better. But every day that passes and with every additional new entrant who has paid for his seat the bean counters rub their hands harder and harder while they find new ways to make life that bit more intolerable than before.
When you grow up and have a few less hormones coursing through your body you will realise that after 20 years of 4.30 starts and 21.00 return for 3 days then 2 12.00 starts with 02.00 return can be a bit tiring. And that is if you are lucky enough to get a UK post.
In short, the first few weeks will be fine. It is fun for a bit and you are sitting in a shinny new jet and will have a new iPhone. But the T and Cs are only going one way and it won't be in your favour.
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You must remember that some of us, would have woken up at 1230 am for a 3 am departure. Then there are those who leave at 9 pm for a night turn to India landing at 5 am. They often then sign on at 7 or 8 that same night of the arrival for a further night flight to the sub continent. Do up to 20 days of that a month and you have an A330 Captains roster.
You will find that you will also look like you have been buttboned by the monster that raped New York.
You will find that you will also look like you have been buttboned by the monster that raped New York.
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rivet squeezer, I would implore you to change your career if you haven't started and quit if you have, but I know that it's pointless.
So all I will say is best of luck. Save money. Go hog wild for the first year and #€% all the hostesses and get an M3 but after that, save ALL the money.
Repay your debts, save enough to live off of if you decide to leave and start figuring out something to study during cruise.
I give anyone starting today 1/500 chance of retiring as a pilot.
Myself I'm still thinking about leaving and I do have some options. Not sure just yet. And just to be clear, I have one of the desirable jobs in Europe.
Aviation isn't about "getting a job" it's about getting a good job. You can fly cargo out of Nigeria for 5 bucks and fall asleep to gun fire at night but is that a career? A life? Fewer and fewer good jobs and a steady stream of pilots willing to pay to get them.
Game. Set. Match.
Don't do it.
So all I will say is best of luck. Save money. Go hog wild for the first year and #€% all the hostesses and get an M3 but after that, save ALL the money.
Repay your debts, save enough to live off of if you decide to leave and start figuring out something to study during cruise.
I give anyone starting today 1/500 chance of retiring as a pilot.
Myself I'm still thinking about leaving and I do have some options. Not sure just yet. And just to be clear, I have one of the desirable jobs in Europe.
Aviation isn't about "getting a job" it's about getting a good job. You can fly cargo out of Nigeria for 5 bucks and fall asleep to gun fire at night but is that a career? A life? Fewer and fewer good jobs and a steady stream of pilots willing to pay to get them.
Game. Set. Match.
Don't do it.
rivet squeezer - if you have to ask the question then the answer is No.
I've spent a lifetime in aviation and I wouldn't change it for the world. There are some very negative comments on here.
Yes there are hardships but that's the nature of the job: it's not 9-5 Monday to Friday, it's often early morning starts or late night finishes, you'll miss important dates and have to cancel on friends, and then there's the cost and how you're going to pay for the training. I know it's controversial to say but half the tiredness and fatigue is caused by individuals own lifestyles.
However the rewards are great: the views for one, it's never boring, the pay and conditions are generally very good (everyone on here complains but 100k+, where else are you going to earn that as captain in possibly in your early 30's). And if you just like to fly there is nothing else like it.
Like most jobs it's what you make it.
It's not all an 'easy' ride but if you're committed I'd say go for it; you don't sound to me as if you are.
I've spent a lifetime in aviation and I wouldn't change it for the world. There are some very negative comments on here.
Yes there are hardships but that's the nature of the job: it's not 9-5 Monday to Friday, it's often early morning starts or late night finishes, you'll miss important dates and have to cancel on friends, and then there's the cost and how you're going to pay for the training. I know it's controversial to say but half the tiredness and fatigue is caused by individuals own lifestyles.
However the rewards are great: the views for one, it's never boring, the pay and conditions are generally very good (everyone on here complains but 100k+, where else are you going to earn that as captain in possibly in your early 30's). And if you just like to fly there is nothing else like it.
Like most jobs it's what you make it.
It's not all an 'easy' ride but if you're committed I'd say go for it; you don't sound to me as if you are.
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JaxofMarlow...
I clearly touched a nerve there and apologies for that but there's no need to try and patronise me with regards to my age! I may be fairly young but have been working since I left school at 16. I'm a licensed engineer now and work 2 days followed by 2 nights on shift, then usually do a couple of days overtime and have been doing this for years. Many times I have travelled to carry out AOG repairs and worked all through the night on the back of a 12 hour shift so trust me I know what tired is!
I did mention in my first post that I wasn't trying to say that it's not a tiring job, however I will say again it's not unique to aviation and there are many other jobs out there that are more tiring and pay considerably less. None of the replies to my post have really answered my question either. Nothing has suggested to me that the job of a pilot is more tiring than the one I already have. Perhaps I'm used to it now as long shifts are all I know but I still stand by my original post.
Stiglet...
Finally a positive post! Trust me I am committed, I mainly asked the question out of interest and try and perhaps make some people realise the grass isn't always greener. I agree with everything you have said in your post and that's exactly how I look at it. Maybe I will be on here in ten years time complaining about fatigue, maybe not...one thing's for sure it can't be any more fatiguing than the job I have now, but I'd bet it's a lot more enjoyable!
I clearly touched a nerve there and apologies for that but there's no need to try and patronise me with regards to my age! I may be fairly young but have been working since I left school at 16. I'm a licensed engineer now and work 2 days followed by 2 nights on shift, then usually do a couple of days overtime and have been doing this for years. Many times I have travelled to carry out AOG repairs and worked all through the night on the back of a 12 hour shift so trust me I know what tired is!
I did mention in my first post that I wasn't trying to say that it's not a tiring job, however I will say again it's not unique to aviation and there are many other jobs out there that are more tiring and pay considerably less. None of the replies to my post have really answered my question either. Nothing has suggested to me that the job of a pilot is more tiring than the one I already have. Perhaps I'm used to it now as long shifts are all I know but I still stand by my original post.
Stiglet...
Finally a positive post! Trust me I am committed, I mainly asked the question out of interest and try and perhaps make some people realise the grass isn't always greener. I agree with everything you have said in your post and that's exactly how I look at it. Maybe I will be on here in ten years time complaining about fatigue, maybe not...one thing's for sure it can't be any more fatiguing than the job I have now, but I'd bet it's a lot more enjoyable!
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Don't say you weren't warned. Yep, we are all earning £100k + by the time we are 30. Laughing my tits off now.
You already have a career. Stick to it and fly for fun. Don't believe the hype selling you a place on a training course. Yes, there maybe a shortage, from the airlines point of view, of pilots who will fly for FA but how long are you going to be happy to do that ? There is massive downward pressure on pilots terms and conditions and now they have caught on to the fact that there is an endless supply of cheap labour the pressure will get worse. Only a matter of time before captains terms are attacked in the same way. You may be lucky and get the right seat from the outset and stick to it for your entire career - but if you do you will have to. Change company and you fall to the bottom again. Three redundancies in the last 9 years have taught me that. You then have to go somewhere your life style may not be compatible with - as I did - reluctantly dragging a wife and two kids to a sandpit for a few years. Back now, but £100k pa. No chance.
Tiredness and fatigue are issues - but they are not the main ones by a long way.
You already have a career. Stick to it and fly for fun. Don't believe the hype selling you a place on a training course. Yes, there maybe a shortage, from the airlines point of view, of pilots who will fly for FA but how long are you going to be happy to do that ? There is massive downward pressure on pilots terms and conditions and now they have caught on to the fact that there is an endless supply of cheap labour the pressure will get worse. Only a matter of time before captains terms are attacked in the same way. You may be lucky and get the right seat from the outset and stick to it for your entire career - but if you do you will have to. Change company and you fall to the bottom again. Three redundancies in the last 9 years have taught me that. You then have to go somewhere your life style may not be compatible with - as I did - reluctantly dragging a wife and two kids to a sandpit for a few years. Back now, but £100k pa. No chance.
Tiredness and fatigue are issues - but they are not the main ones by a long way.
Last edited by JaxofMarlow; 8th Mar 2015 at 18:31.
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100k.... I wish, on my 5th company now and the best I have seen is 65k a couple of years ago, it is nearly half that now. And now I am paid in Euro I have taken a big hit with the recent rise in the Pound verse the Euro, losing about £500 a month on that gig..... If I could do something else I would but at the moment Im stuck with it but keeping my eyes wide open.
Your call really.
Your call really.
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People talk of the "two buckets" when talking Middle east, but this is just as valid anywhere else. Fill the cash bucket enough and bail or carry the 
bucket as long as you can and bail.
It's simple really. Flying a career? No, not any more.
bucket as long as you can and bail.It's simple really. Flying a career? No, not any more.
Stiglet has it right. Flying is not a job. It's not even a career. It's a vocation. If you come into it for any other reason than being unable to spend your few years here any other way, you've got it wrong.
I'm seeing too many people come into the profession for the wrong reasons. Yes, I did decide to stop flying, but that was after 32 years. And I'm still involved (part time) because it is all still so interesting. Some flying jobs pay a fortune, others are huge fun. Point is, YOU decide how you spend your life. If you don't really think flying is worth it, then stop.
Someone once said, "You can do whatever you want - provided you are prepared to make the necessary sacrifices". That applies.
I'm seeing too many people come into the profession for the wrong reasons. Yes, I did decide to stop flying, but that was after 32 years. And I'm still involved (part time) because it is all still so interesting. Some flying jobs pay a fortune, others are huge fun. Point is, YOU decide how you spend your life. If you don't really think flying is worth it, then stop.
Someone once said, "You can do whatever you want - provided you are prepared to make the necessary sacrifices". That applies.