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Why do we not require 1500 hours for a RHS job ?

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Why do we not require 1500 hours for a RHS job ?

Old 19th Jun 2019, 13:20
  #121 (permalink)  
Aso
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Officer Kite Forgive me, but didn't the largest aviation crash in history happen before deregulation with the environment being exactly the utopia that you describe? Caused by a crew with an infinite amount of hours and everything else you list? Of what use were all of those things? And that's only one example of how unjustified all this wishful thinking is
No, that is not possible. I guess you mean Tenerife. That was clearly because the cap had not enough hours on Cessna in GA. Otherwise he would not need any stupid clearance and easily managed to jump over that Pan Am and manualy flown to AMS as VFR. Because that is how real pros do that.
Spot on: IT IS ALL ABOUT TRAINING AND QUALITY OF THE INDIVIDUAL NOT HOURS...

Sorry I had to shout but I feel that the P of Professional of PPRuNe could be removed again
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Old 19th Jun 2019, 14:00
  #122 (permalink)  
 
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Is the 1,500 hour rule not just to reduce the supply pool of suitable pilots desperate for a job and willing to work for rubbish terms and conditions? Hence forcing regionals to pay more than a fast food worker? Meaning pilots aren't travelling cross country to start their tour?

I tend to agree that hours mean very little. It is down to the individual and standard of training.
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Old 21st Jun 2019, 03:04
  #123 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by 4runner View Post
Flight instructing is a fantastic way of achieving experience. Youíre essentially a Captain early in your career, you actually practice the knowledge that you learned, you learn to work with a variety of personalities in the cockpit, you learn leadership and decision making and time management skills. Itís too bad that Europe ruined GA, but itís your bed, you lay in it. Iíve flown with 755 hour P2F cadets. They didnít pay their dues through instructing, they didnít interview for their ďjobĒ and they have a sense of accomplishment for accomplishing nothing that was earned.
ďDidnít pay their duesĒ?

ďDidnít interview for the jobĒ?

ĒAccomplished nothingĒ?

What a load of it. Seriously you Americans have zero clue about how aviation works outside of your borders donít you? Youíre probably shocked that in the other 200+ countries in the world aircraft get off ground without US pilots behind the controls.

Having experienced both, Iíll take a thoroughly vetted, well trained Euro style ab initio pilot any day over a 1500hr US style wonder whoís ďexperienceĒ is watching amateurs do circuits in CAVOK weather and has had no proper screening or training for an airline job.


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Old 21st Jun 2019, 04:01
  #124 (permalink)  
 
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I think it’s a bit sad to start immediately after school on an airliner as a young pilot. It’s not very challenging and as fun as flying in the bush for example with twin old pistons from the 60th/70th or Cessna Caravan where you land on place you won’t even believe it’s a runway. It really builds your confidence. Flying on your own with basically no rule, multiple different aircraft at the same time, with no paperwork whatsoever except the techlog and no QAR was kinda dangerous, but as a young pilot it’s so much fun. I’m flying Airbus for 5 years now and I really love it. Don’t get me wrong, there are other challenges and satisfaction but I do miss sometimes the freedom of real flying, single crew operation and adrenaline that you never get in airliner.

Saying that I fly with a lot of guys who only flew ATR or Jet before and most of them are very good pilots. For a safety point of view I don’t think it’s an issue as long as they are properly trained and their company allows them to fly raw data.





Last edited by pineteam; 21st Jun 2019 at 06:07. Reason: Typo
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Old 21st Jun 2019, 06:32
  #125 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by pineteam View Post
I think itís a bit sad to start immediately after school on an airliner as a young pilot. Itís not very challenging and as fun as flying in the bush for example with twin old pistons from the 60th/70th or Cessna Caravan where you land on place you wonít even believe itís a runway. It really builds your confidence. Flying on your own with basically no rule, multiple different aircraft at the same time, with no paperwork whatsoever except the techlog and no QAR was kinda dangerous, but as a young pilot itís so much fun.


And it's also dangerous. Plenty of pilots have lost their lives in light aircraft bush flying. We shouldn't expect new pilots to do that in order to get an airline job. Not everyone wanting to be a pilot desires an "adrenaline rush". Some are more attracted to the advantages of flying airliners than light bush aircraft. If they do want an adrenaline rush take up skydiving or bungee jumping.

Saying that I fly with a lot of guys who only flew ATR or Jet before and most of them are very good pilots. For a safety point of view I donít think itís an issue as long as they are properly trained
So what's the problem then.
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Old 21st Jun 2019, 06:54
  #126 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by dr dre View Post
So what's the problem then.
No problem. It’s just sad IMHO. Flying only shinny metallic Jet your all carrier does not sound that exciting. People who become “pilots” just for the life style are not pilots. Sorry.


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Old 21st Jun 2019, 06:56
  #127 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by dr dre View Post
a 1500hr US style wonder whoís ďexperienceĒ is watching amateurs do circuits in CAVOK weather and has had no proper screening or training for an airline job.
Since thatís not the way it works - I doubt youíve ďexperienced bothĒ. They are are both screened, and then theyíre further trained. In addition to their previous experience.

Many EVA Suits from new hires previous jobs hanging in your training center ? No ? Thought not.
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Old 21st Jun 2019, 07:35
  #128 (permalink)  
 
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There are crap pilots at 1500 hrs and greater. There are very astute ones with merely 200. Itís about their training and ability, both technically and non technically. This varies widely from FTOs, ATOs through to airlines. You could place a 5000 hour limit and achieve the same results. A futile argument.

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Old 21st Jun 2019, 08:10
  #129 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by pineteam View Post
I think itís a bit sad to start immediately after school on an airliner as a young pilot. Itís not very challenging and as fun as flying in the bush for example with twin old pistons from the 60th/70th or Cessna Caravan where you land on place you wonít even believe itís a runway. It really builds your confidence. Flying on your own with basically no rule, multiple different aircraft at the same time, with no paperwork whatsoever except the techlog and no QAR was kinda dangerous, but as a young pilot itís so much fun. Iím flying Airbus for 5 years now and I really love it. Donít get me wrong, there are other challenges and satisfaction but I do miss sometimes the freedom of real flying, single crew operation and adrenaline that you never get in airliner.

Saying that I fly with a lot of guys who only flew ATR or Jet before and most of them are very good pilots. For a safety point of view I donít think itís an issue as long as they are properly trained and their company allows them to fly raw data.





Now please tell me where a European pilot can do bush flying in Europe? My ears are wide open to listen to your guidance.
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Old 21st Jun 2019, 08:16
  #130 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Banana Joe View Post
Now please tell me where a European pilot can do bush flying in Europe? My ears are wide open to listen to your guidance.
You pack your bag and you go job hunting in Africa like I did. Easy right?
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Old 21st Jun 2019, 08:29
  #131 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by pineteam View Post


You pack your bag and you go job hunting in Africa like I did. Easy right?
It is not as easy as you are making it sound. Over the last few years, several African countries' authorities have, rightly so, increased the minimum requirements for foreigners. The bare minimum at the moment seems to be 500 hours and a FI rating is a big advantage. The average graduate in Europe still needs to find a way to log 300 hours to be eligible to qualify for any position.

However, Susi Air remains a viable option. You can apply and go through the selection with less 250 hours but those are required to start.


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Old 21st Jun 2019, 08:38
  #132 (permalink)  
 
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Hello Banana Joe,

This is very true. Itís much more difficult nowdays. It was already not that easy 10 years ago.
Iím not pointing fingers at pilots jumping straight on Jet. If my first job was on a 737 or 320, I would take it immediately. But I had the chance to do something else and Iím glad I did it and would recommend any new fellow pilots not to rush on airliners as itís pretty cool and satisfying to do different kinds of flying.
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Old 21st Jun 2019, 11:19
  #133 (permalink)  
 
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I find it absurd that people think everyone who wants to be an airline pilot should move to Africa or Southeast Asia first to ďpay their duesĒ. Some will and they will enjoy it but for the majority of people that is just not desirable at all. Since GA in Europe isnít what it is in the states, there are few options left. Thankfully, airlines in Europe are geared up to train cadets, and they do this very well.

I did my basic flying training in New Zealand, and came back to the UK to do my IR, but it was possible to have trained in America with the same company. My IR instructor (ex Air Force, long career in airlines after his service) made his views on those who trained in the states quite clear - as has been mentioned above, how much extra do you actually learn from spending 1500 hours in CAVOK conditions before moving to a regional? (because flying for a European LOCO in a 320/737 isnít exactly any different from flying a regional carrier in the states)
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Old 22nd Jun 2019, 07:06
  #134 (permalink)  
 
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I knew someone once who had taken two years hard slog (while still working to keep himself and his family going) to gain his licence with 200 hrs. He had a 'rejection letter' from an airline saying "apply again when you have 1,000 hrs". He replied by saying that he had just spent a lot of money and time to gain his licence and was now at 'peak performance' and how could he be seen to be 'better' if he went to the USA to hire a cheap C150 to burn holes in the sky for another 800 hrs? He was invited for an interview and got the job. And was amongst the best pilots I have flown with. But I have flown with "200 hrs wiz-kids" off full time courses who could not think for themselves and flew like 'machines'.

Hours alone mean absolutely nothing. The 1,500 hr requirement in the USA is absolutely nonsense. But then it was imposed by politicians, who are clueless on any aviation matters (as the EASA FTLs prove so clearly).
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Old 22nd Jun 2019, 10:29
  #135 (permalink)  
 
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When I made the jump from piston to a 737 simulator the difference in flying was huge, I don't see how 1300 extra piston hours instructing students will make you a better airline pilot as the jet experience is still lacking and the first 1000 hours on a jet will be such a steep learning curve it's hard to imagine those extra piston hours will make much of a difference in a multi crew environment and in a transport jet. The flying is totally different that it just doesn't really change much between a 200 hour pilot and a 1500 hour piston pilot.

The most important thing for a pilot comes down to attitude and personality in my opinion
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Old 22nd Jun 2019, 15:06
  #136 (permalink)  
 
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and their company allows them to fly raw data.
And that is one key to pure flying skill. The vast majority of airline operators in all parts of Asia are so wedded to flight directors that is practically a Mayday situation if the crew are forced to fall back on raw data. In a Middle East airline when the QAR revealed that one captain switched off his flight director to keep his hand in on a fully visual CAVOK climb, he was fined by the airline.
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Old 6th Jul 2019, 16:10
  #137 (permalink)  
 
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Saying flight hours don't count is bullshit. I regularly fly with 300/500 hours FO who just paid their way into the right seat with no screening at all . They are a disaster under all point of view to the extent that also a cpt incapacitation would most probably end into one.. Pilots needs to have the required skills and to build a database and they get the the first by genes and the second by experience.. Putting paying morons that sholud not be anywhere close to an aircraft and that later accept peanuts as a salary in the right seat which in turns jeopardize the life of hundreds of passengers while they refine skills that they don't have is not acceptable. Cadetship should be only allowed if fully sponsored by the airline and if the airline has a proper screening and training organization and minor operator should not get an ATO just by thinking boxes. P2F must end before is too late. Normally the best have FI or GA expťrience . It used to be the standard and it has to go back to that .

Last edited by cucuotto; 6th Jul 2019 at 16:26.
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Old 6th Jul 2019, 18:20
  #138 (permalink)  
 
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Cucuotto
Rubbish, it's the lack of screening and training that counts, not 1500 hours in for example GA.
British Airways and several European airlines, Easyjet for example, have recruited 250 + hours cadets into the RHS of A320 and similar etc. for decades with no problem.
Proper screening prior to training for ALTP, Type Rating and extensive route training with Training Capts.
All RHS co-pilots with BA are trained from the start of Route Traiing for two pilot ops.
What Airline do you fly for which allows such ill equipped co-pilots on public transport flights?
Do you not have any feedback to your obviously poor training set up?
I'd like to avoid that company!!
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Old 6th Jul 2019, 19:52
  #139 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by cucuotto View Post
Saying flight hours don't count is bullshit. I regularly fly with 300/500 hours FO who just paid their way into the right seat with no screening at all . They are a disaster under all point of view to the extent that also a cpt incapacitation would most probably end into one.. Pilots needs to have the required skills and to build a database and they get the the first by genes and the second by experience.. Putting paying morons that sholud not be anywhere close to an aircraft and that later accept peanuts as a salary in the right seat which in turns jeopardize the life of hundreds of passengers while they refine skills that they don't have is not acceptable. Cadetship should be only allowed if fully sponsored by the airline and if the airline has a proper screening and training organization and minor operator should not get an ATO just by thinking boxes. P2F must end before is too late. Normally the best have FI or GA expťrience . It used to be the standard and it has to go back to that .
The problem lies with your employer(s) then.*
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Old 6th Jul 2019, 20:05
  #140 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Banana Joe View Post
The problem lies with your employer(s) then.*
Do you know how many employer like this are there around in EU? Beside mayor Easy and Ryan the rest is down to this.
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