Should Average Pilot Experience Levels Of Each Airline Be Public?
Thread Starter
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Dubai
Age: 43
Posts: 415
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Should Average Pilot Experience Levels Of Each Airline Be Public?
I'm not trying to argue the benefit of experience or not but the first issue the media was interested in after both the Asiana accident and the Malaysian disappearance was the experience level of the crews.
It seems to me that Pilot experience is of public interest and to maintain transparency in the industry would it not be reasonable for an experience league table to exist for use by the media?
It seems to me that Pilot experience is of public interest and to maintain transparency in the industry would it not be reasonable for an experience league table to exist for use by the media?
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Upper Deck
Age: 60
Posts: 92
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Desp.
I accept the approach & environment issue but hours do bring an increasing awareness when things are beginning to go awry! Hours help you spot a problem before it happens, hopefully!! Hours also tend to bring a maturity, not easy for us!!!!
I accept the approach & environment issue but hours do bring an increasing awareness when things are beginning to go awry! Hours help you spot a problem before it happens, hopefully!! Hours also tend to bring a maturity, not easy for us!!!!
I think this is an interesting idea - maybe using a total time/landings score.
That way the public *might* be dissuaded against going for the cheapest ticket price, which, let's face it, is unsustainable.
That way the public *might* be dissuaded against going for the cheapest ticket price, which, let's face it, is unsustainable.
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: ...
Posts: 726
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I guess is remarkable to Point out that in some airlines the first officer duty is to raise the Landing gear up while in some other less "well sighted" in Just 1-2 years of operations you do as pf plenty of cirlcing and tought approach environment..Just a guess. ..
Join Date: Nov 1999
Posts: 2,312
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
They are nearly always published as part of an accident report.
I am not sure why it would it would be particularly helpful?
I recall replying to somebody a while ago about experience levels not necessarily having a correlation to accidents. That reply is reproduced here.
I am not sure why it would it would be particularly helpful?
I recall replying to somebody a while ago about experience levels not necessarily having a correlation to accidents. That reply is reproduced here.
AA331 Boeing 737. Capt. 22 years experience including 2700 hours on type. First officer 10 years experience and 5000 hours on type.
AA587 A300. Capt. 8050 hours including 1723 on type. First officer 4400 hours including 1835 on type.
AA1420 MD82. Capt. 10234 hours including 5518 hours on type. First officer 4292 hours including 182 hours on type.
AA965 Boeing 757. Capt.13000 hours including 2260 hours on type. First officer 5800 hours including 2286 on type.
AA1572 MD83. Capt. 8000 hours including 4230 on type. First officer 5100 hours including 2281 on type.
In just 5 major accidents involving perfectly serviceable airplanes since 1995, resulting in 435 fatalities and a further 110 injuries, you have "experienced" and often very experienced crews at the control. Then there is AA1340, AA102, AA70, AA625, AA385, if you want to go back to 1965 and exclude all the accidents attributed to any form of technical or maintenance error or of course an act of terrorism. Not a cadet in sight and more "experience" than you could shake a stick at.
I wonder what you think aa73?
AA587 A300. Capt. 8050 hours including 1723 on type. First officer 4400 hours including 1835 on type.
AA1420 MD82. Capt. 10234 hours including 5518 hours on type. First officer 4292 hours including 182 hours on type.
AA965 Boeing 757. Capt.13000 hours including 2260 hours on type. First officer 5800 hours including 2286 on type.
AA1572 MD83. Capt. 8000 hours including 4230 on type. First officer 5100 hours including 2281 on type.
In just 5 major accidents involving perfectly serviceable airplanes since 1995, resulting in 435 fatalities and a further 110 injuries, you have "experienced" and often very experienced crews at the control. Then there is AA1340, AA102, AA70, AA625, AA385, if you want to go back to 1965 and exclude all the accidents attributed to any form of technical or maintenance error or of course an act of terrorism. Not a cadet in sight and more "experience" than you could shake a stick at.
I wonder what you think aa73?
Thread Starter
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Dubai
Age: 43
Posts: 415
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
It is clear that many passengers believe that crew experience level is an important part of safety. Why would league tables not be available to help them make their own decision?
In my view some Airlines are reducing experience to critically low levels and consumer information should be available. Pilot experience ranks higher in Imortance to many people than lost luggage and on-time arrivals.
All I think is transparency should be equally applied to all issues.
Looking at recent media coverage in case of an incident the first thing the public want to know is what level of experience the crew had.
Beazlebub- I agree experience is no guarantee of safety. Just one aspect.
In my view some Airlines are reducing experience to critically low levels and consumer information should be available. Pilot experience ranks higher in Imortance to many people than lost luggage and on-time arrivals.
All I think is transparency should be equally applied to all issues.
Looking at recent media coverage in case of an incident the first thing the public want to know is what level of experience the crew had.
Beazlebub- I agree experience is no guarantee of safety. Just one aspect.
Join Date: May 2001
Location: A few degrees South
Posts: 809
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Experience is not understood by the public. The whole technical part of flying is not understood by the public. Just refer to a "nice landing".
A license issued by a contracting state should be looked upon as such. There should be no need to have a letter issued by that state that this license is genuine.
If pilots want to cheat, it is much easier to cheat in flying hours, than faking the complete license.
Last, but not least, flying hours say nothing, as mentioned before.
In times where everybody can buy a license, and airplanes are so reliable on automatics, one can fly half a life span without knowing what is going on.
A license issued by a contracting state should be looked upon as such. There should be no need to have a letter issued by that state that this license is genuine.
If pilots want to cheat, it is much easier to cheat in flying hours, than faking the complete license.
Last, but not least, flying hours say nothing, as mentioned before.
In times where everybody can buy a license, and airplanes are so reliable on automatics, one can fly half a life span without knowing what is going on.
Last edited by latetonite; 9th May 2014 at 06:06. Reason: Spelling
Thread Starter
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Dubai
Age: 43
Posts: 415
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Lateonite- It is a very very good point that everybody can buy a license these days therefore maybe experience is far more important than the license itself.
Regarding issuing authorities they provide a legal minimum as they do for fuel. That does not mean that legal minimum fuel is necessarily safe and if a Mayday occurs due to low fuel the public have the right to know, the same applies to legal minimum experience. In my view as Airlines are driven by cost cutting it is essential the public are kept informed of where those costs are being cut, Pilot experience is one important safety area.
A league table of average Pilot experience in Airlines would provide a guide to the public as to which Airlines truly put safety ahead of costs.
I understand that there is a lot of kick back to this view because it does not benefit cost cutting management's and it does not benefit young guys trying to move up the ladder faster than maybe is sensible. Therefore maybe it is even more important to have this kind of league table?
Regarding issuing authorities they provide a legal minimum as they do for fuel. That does not mean that legal minimum fuel is necessarily safe and if a Mayday occurs due to low fuel the public have the right to know, the same applies to legal minimum experience. In my view as Airlines are driven by cost cutting it is essential the public are kept informed of where those costs are being cut, Pilot experience is one important safety area.
A league table of average Pilot experience in Airlines would provide a guide to the public as to which Airlines truly put safety ahead of costs.
I understand that there is a lot of kick back to this view because it does not benefit cost cutting management's and it does not benefit young guys trying to move up the ladder faster than maybe is sensible. Therefore maybe it is even more important to have this kind of league table?
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: IRS NAV ONLY
Posts: 1,230
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
You can't judge crew's abilities only by experience in flight hours. I have no idea about the average experience of crews at Air France, but since it's a legacy carrier, I'd assume they don't tend to have 3000h captains. Compare their (temporary) LOC (Loss of control) incidents in the last couple of years to the incidents of LCCs (Ryanair etc.), which tend to have less experienced crews.
If flight time was really THAT important, airlines would only hire based on that parameter alone. But when you can find captains with 15k hours that have no idea what CRM even stands for, questionable manual flying skills and money being only reason why they come to work every day - the question pops out whether a highly motivated young captain with 5000h on 60+ ton jet (737/320) is really de facto inferior to all 15k-hour pilots? I doubt it.
Don't get me wrong, there is no subsitute for experience, but it's not measured just in flight hours and therefore you can't just list the airlines by crew's flight time experience. It is as if somebody would list airlines by number of incidents and forgot to divide it by sectors flown - an airline with 200 aircraft each flying 4-6 sectors per day is obviously more likely to have a f*-up or two in 30 year history than a summer-charter company with 5 aircraft.
If flight time was really THAT important, airlines would only hire based on that parameter alone. But when you can find captains with 15k hours that have no idea what CRM even stands for, questionable manual flying skills and money being only reason why they come to work every day - the question pops out whether a highly motivated young captain with 5000h on 60+ ton jet (737/320) is really de facto inferior to all 15k-hour pilots? I doubt it.
Don't get me wrong, there is no subsitute for experience, but it's not measured just in flight hours and therefore you can't just list the airlines by crew's flight time experience. It is as if somebody would list airlines by number of incidents and forgot to divide it by sectors flown - an airline with 200 aircraft each flying 4-6 sectors per day is obviously more likely to have a f*-up or two in 30 year history than a summer-charter company with 5 aircraft.
Join Date: May 2001
Location: A few degrees South
Posts: 809
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I refer to previous post, the public cannot judge, due lack of technical and insight knowledge.
What is the difference between 3000 hrs and 10000 hrs? As hours are the only way experience is expressed? What is it supposed to mean to the general public?
As now all pilots are referred to as 'drivers', does one deem it important taking a taxi with the driver experience advertised on the front window?
These days everything seems to be going haywire, without limits.
What is the difference between 3000 hrs and 10000 hrs? As hours are the only way experience is expressed? What is it supposed to mean to the general public?
As now all pilots are referred to as 'drivers', does one deem it important taking a taxi with the driver experience advertised on the front window?
These days everything seems to be going haywire, without limits.
N4790P
A league table of average Pilot experience in Airlines would provide a guide to the public as to which Airlines truly put safety ahead of costs.
Why not an equally meaningless league table of average experience of engineers, average airframe age and hours.
It is the regulators job to ensure safety compliancy in all aspects of aviation and the public must have total faith in that system.
I REALLY SHOULDN'T BE HERE
ZFT - I agree 100%; that is why there is SMS to take an holistic view of the overall risk and safety of an operation.
If there is an irrational focus by the media on pilot hours when it comes to a news story then rather than feed the ignorance we should be ensuring that representative bodies are attempting to educate and inform the media in order that they provide more meaningful analysis.
If there is an irrational focus by the media on pilot hours when it comes to a news story then rather than feed the ignorance we should be ensuring that representative bodies are attempting to educate and inform the media in order that they provide more meaningful analysis.
Thread Starter
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Dubai
Age: 43
Posts: 415
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The question for me is why would you not put the information out there to let the public decide whether it's useful or not?
They have plenty of other league tables, why not allow the public to decide if the experience of the people whose hands they are putting there lives into should be the most or the least experienced.
Most wouldn't even consider it, some would.
They have plenty of other league tables, why not allow the public to decide if the experience of the people whose hands they are putting there lives into should be the most or the least experienced.
Most wouldn't even consider it, some would.
I REALLY SHOULDN'T BE HERE
Kungfu Panda, my two questions to you then are:
Do you believe that pilot experience is the most useful metric as a predictor of future accident rates?
Do you believe that the company with 12 ASRs per 1,000 departures or 20 ASRs per 1,000 departures is safer?
Do you believe that pilot experience is the most useful metric as a predictor of future accident rates?
Do you believe that the company with 12 ASRs per 1,000 departures or 20 ASRs per 1,000 departures is safer?
Join Date: May 2001
Location: England
Posts: 1,904
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
As always the two extreme sides of the topic are debated. When most of us talk about experience being ignored in preference to non-experience, we are talking about those pilots with around 5 years (+/- a few years) in the industry and who lead a life that depends on them being employable should their employers going bust. The cadet hiring model British airlines are all to fond off, denies UK born and based pilots that right (yes, I'm calling it a right). How can a system which only hires pilots at a junior level be sustainable for this career choice?