Chinese Pilots demand equal pay with expats
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Chinese Pilots demand equal pay with expats
From CNN, according to a letter from an unconfirmed source it seems...
Chinese pilots demand same pay as foreigners - CNN.com
Many things to be said, for sure. In one way, it may seem unfair, at least to the guys with lower pay (Chinese in this case). But is it, really?
The great majority of Chinese pilots have had their entire training paid for by the airline, from their very first flight hour, and they never have to worry of finding a job after getting their license. They do not have to expatriate themselves to work, away from friends, family, and known surroundings, in a country that speaks little or none of their native language.
The sad thing is that some Chinese pilots do take their grief on board and are resentful of the expat pilots. The foreign crew operating in China only take a high paying job that was offered by the airlines.
It seems so far that the travelling industry is growing faster in this part of the world than the capacity for Chinese airlines to train their own crew; many Chinese nationals are sent abroad (US, Canada, France and others) to get their initial training, so it seems the training resources in China itself are limited to say the least.
I am not sure the article is an exact reflection of the reality, some expats here would think otherwise, but it touches on some points worth considering.
Chinese pilots demand same pay as foreigners - CNN.com
Many things to be said, for sure. In one way, it may seem unfair, at least to the guys with lower pay (Chinese in this case). But is it, really?
The great majority of Chinese pilots have had their entire training paid for by the airline, from their very first flight hour, and they never have to worry of finding a job after getting their license. They do not have to expatriate themselves to work, away from friends, family, and known surroundings, in a country that speaks little or none of their native language.
The sad thing is that some Chinese pilots do take their grief on board and are resentful of the expat pilots. The foreign crew operating in China only take a high paying job that was offered by the airlines.
"[Foreign pilots] do not have a higher skill or standard compared to us, and are not able to enhance the overall technical skill of the airline," says the letter, claiming foreign pilots enjoy more days off, easier flight routes and much larger salaries than their Chinese counterparts.
"The sense of superiority in the bones of white people, plus unfair payments, has made the relationship between Chinese and foreign pilots intense, extremely unhelpful to cockpit management and will eventually threaten flight safety," says the letter, which has since mostly disappeared from Chinese news and social media web sites.
"The sense of superiority in the bones of white people, plus unfair payments, has made the relationship between Chinese and foreign pilots intense, extremely unhelpful to cockpit management and will eventually threaten flight safety," says the letter, which has since mostly disappeared from Chinese news and social media web sites.
I am not sure the article is an exact reflection of the reality, some expats here would think otherwise, but it touches on some points worth considering.
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Well, I'm just one expat that has spent quite a long time in both the Middle and Far East, (not China), as an expat and we certainly didn't get any preference for the routes we flew, got exactly the same time off as the locals and our salaries were geared up with some allowances to allow for the fact that we were not living in our home country with the benefits that incurs. The basic salary and increments as well as the meal allowances and any additional flying pay was identical to the locals, the extra allowances would be towards housing and education of children. The local pilots have security of tenure and often a better pension scheme than is offered to contract expat pilots.
This 'letter' sounds like a deliberate
stir, unsupported by any facts or objectivity.
This 'letter' sounds like a deliberate
stir, unsupported by any facts or objectivity.
The main point to make is that the expats don't actually work for the airline. They work for an agency who pay the market rate from the money the airline pay that agency to provide the pilots. The expats are on a contract with little security and can be out on the bum at a whim.
It's market forces which dictate pay and not the kindness of the airline. The local pilots signed the contract and got the going rate for their circumstances. If the Chinese guys want pay equality, they should leave and apply to an agency!
(PS - before someone points out they can't - I do know that!)
It's market forces which dictate pay and not the kindness of the airline. The local pilots signed the contract and got the going rate for their circumstances. If the Chinese guys want pay equality, they should leave and apply to an agency!
(PS - before someone points out they can't - I do know that!)
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Just to clarify, my post above, I was not employed by an agency, I worked directly for the airlines concerned and my observations are based on that.
If all the Chinese airlines only employ via an agency then it is exactly as Dan Winterland says.
If all the Chinese airlines only employ via an agency then it is exactly as Dan Winterland says.
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This is just the thin end of a thick wedge waiting for those working in China as foreign pilots. There are few nations on Earth with more rampant racism than China and they will kick you out as quickly as they can. If you go to a European airline you are used to working with people of many nationalities, cultural backgrounds and religious sensitivities. In China, that is not the case and you are just a foreigner who they hate but have to put up with until you can be got rid of. Unless you have an overwhelmingly great desire to work in China, which no one does, and you have absolutely no other choices, this is one best given a very wide berth indeed.
I agree Chinese pilots should get the same pay as Western Pilots.......when they practice Western CRM, embrace a Western safety culture, can pass the same sim rides as Western pilots, and speak ICAO level 4 or better in English for real 
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I don't agree that Air China Pilots should be paid the same as the Western expats. Western expats have mostly paid for their own ab initio training and their own type rating which is an investment which deserves a return. At Air China the Pilots are young college graduates who are sent to the U.S. for 18 months to learn to fly, and speak English, all fully paid for plus salary, they then return to China for a fully paid for type rating.
After about six years they become Captain and are paid a salary which is more than 15 times the local average, having been nurse maided from day one. They fly with highly experienced and motivated expats and then suddenly think they should be paid the same.
In my opinion if you are a Captain under 40, fully healthy, prepared to put up with a little and are working for any of the European non career Airlines then I think China represents a very good opportunity for return on your investment. Ten years commuting to China will make you full career money with Ryanair.It is true though the Chinese Pilots have security and you do not.
After about six years they become Captain and are paid a salary which is more than 15 times the local average, having been nurse maided from day one. They fly with highly experienced and motivated expats and then suddenly think they should be paid the same.
In my opinion if you are a Captain under 40, fully healthy, prepared to put up with a little
and are working for any of the European non career Airlines then I think China represents a very good opportunity for return on your investment. Ten years commuting to China will make you full career money with Ryanair.It is true though the Chinese Pilots have security and you do not.
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I hope I never find the necessity to work in China. I know several guys who have went there and some of their stories make me shiver. As said, you appear to be seen as a very reluctant necessity. This must do absolutely nothing for CRM. Along with the reciprocal trust issues between locals and ex-pats and the rife pollution, I'm under the persuasion that money isn't everything. I wouldn't leave a job to go to China however I realise some don't have any choice.
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Please put a stop to this CRM thing, especially people who have no experience working in China. The First Officers you fly with are all respectful and helpful. I have flown with many much less respectful and helpful European F/O's. Respect is of course a 2 way street.
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Panda, what you say is untrue. While most local pilots in China will show a minimum of respect, I can tell you some are not respectful, and even less helpful. Some might say it's a cultural thing, but the reality is that CRM concept is still an abstract idea for many, and some local FO's have a hard time hiding their discontent when flying with foreigners.
I am on my 4th year flying in China, 6th year in Asia, and 17 years away from my native country. Salaries are sometimes equal in other countries or companies, but even so, the local pilots will often be resentful of the expats being here, for one reason or another. (Think, if the expats weren't here, there would be more jobs for the locals, as an example). This is just very pronounced in China I feel, comoared to other places.
As you may know in China, expat pilots (and other professions) are granted an "Expert Certificate". This is a government issued document to validate the expat applicant has skills and/or knowledge that is lacking within local resources.
From a personal point of view, whatever the salary gap between expats and locals, I see my salary as an expat nothing short of very well deserved, especially so in China, for the many reasons already mentioned by other posters. On top of this, most expats will work on fixed term contracts like 2, 3, or 5 years. There is no garantee the airline will renew a contract, and nobody else but me is looking after my retirement plans.
I do agree though that you can find idiots and disrespectful individuals in Europe, as well as anywhere else. The difference may lay in the fact that Western crew are used to work with a whole mix of nationalities and cultural backgrounds, be in the Americas or Europe, while this is relatively new in China. 10 to 12 years ago, expat pilots in China must have been a rarity.
I am on my 4th year flying in China, 6th year in Asia, and 17 years away from my native country. Salaries are sometimes equal in other countries or companies, but even so, the local pilots will often be resentful of the expats being here, for one reason or another. (Think, if the expats weren't here, there would be more jobs for the locals, as an example). This is just very pronounced in China I feel, comoared to other places.
As you may know in China, expat pilots (and other professions) are granted an "Expert Certificate". This is a government issued document to validate the expat applicant has skills and/or knowledge that is lacking within local resources.
From a personal point of view, whatever the salary gap between expats and locals, I see my salary as an expat nothing short of very well deserved, especially so in China, for the many reasons already mentioned by other posters. On top of this, most expats will work on fixed term contracts like 2, 3, or 5 years. There is no garantee the airline will renew a contract, and nobody else but me is looking after my retirement plans.
I do agree though that you can find idiots and disrespectful individuals in Europe, as well as anywhere else. The difference may lay in the fact that Western crew are used to work with a whole mix of nationalities and cultural backgrounds, be in the Americas or Europe, while this is relatively new in China. 10 to 12 years ago, expat pilots in China must have been a rarity.
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FLEX: I agree with most of what you say but"untrue" in this case is in the eye of the beholder. I have felt that the CRM between myself and my Chinese F/O's has been very good over the last 5 years which I have been in China. In general I believe it has been easier than working with F/O's at LCC's in Europe.
I see the problems foreign Pilots have with the initial training and the medical but once you're trained, online and lucky enough to slip easily through the medical then this could not be a better deal.
With my current employer I have the option of 18 days a month at home, in Europe, with salary of $14k, and a tax paid certificate. It's unbeatable. I am happy...
Totally agree that we deserve it though.
I see the problems foreign Pilots have with the initial training and the medical but once you're trained, online and lucky enough to slip easily through the medical then this could not be a better deal.
With my current employer I have the option of 18 days a month at home, in Europe, with salary of $14k, and a tax paid certificate. It's unbeatable. I am happy...
Totally agree that we deserve it though.
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Chinese Pilots demand equal pay with expats
If the locals want equal pay good luck to them. Those that turn up type rated with 10-20 thousand hours in the log book should however receive a substantial sign on bonus and annual retention bonus.
The agenda should be to increase everybody's wages not follow each other in the race to the bottom.
The agenda should be to increase everybody's wages not follow each other in the race to the bottom.
I don't know much about chinese culture and business practices, but I do know that they are far different from those in the west. Assuming the basic facts of the article are true, I wonder how this is going to work out for the chinese FOs in question.
On a side note, all the asian countries have been hiring expats and sending their own people overseas for training for many years. Are any of the asian airlines starting to do any initial training at home? I don't understand why they don't hire expat CFIs to train some local CFIs, and go from there, instead of sending so much money overseas.
On a side note, all the asian countries have been hiring expats and sending their own people overseas for training for many years. Are any of the asian airlines starting to do any initial training at home? I don't understand why they don't hire expat CFIs to train some local CFIs, and go from there, instead of sending so much money overseas.
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Caboclo, they're tried. I worked for one of the Chinese flying schools a few years back. Turns out that even the simplest of things become impossible in China.
Here's some ideas...
2000m Vis everyday.
All airspace is extremely restricted military airspace(48hour prior approval required and the military like to take their aircraft for a spin whenever the visibility(rarely) clears).
ATC have never handled VFR and refuse to change or allow flights when IFR flights are with 100nm.
Anyone going airside must clear airport security everytime
Maps are considered a state secret.
Medical is worthy of NASA entry if your company doesn't lube the process.
Constant pressure to get results at any cost(students logging "solo" time in the parking bay is common/Testing officers are bribed to pass students is standard practice)
No Aircraft mechanics
No Avgas
That's without considering any of the cultural issues, some very well funded operations have come and gone. Beijing Pan Am had the largest Diamond fleet in the world and the instructor salaries alone were calculated by one bored instructor at over a $250,000US a month for sitting on the ground doing nothing.
Right now the most sensible thing for the Chinese Airlines to do is select the cadet based on his medical, sign him on a 99year contract and pay whatever it costs overseas to get him to a good standard. As long as the cadet never fails his medical it's a guaranteed investment for the airline.
Here's some ideas...
2000m Vis everyday.
All airspace is extremely restricted military airspace(48hour prior approval required and the military like to take their aircraft for a spin whenever the visibility(rarely) clears).
ATC have never handled VFR and refuse to change or allow flights when IFR flights are with 100nm.
Anyone going airside must clear airport security everytime
Maps are considered a state secret.
Medical is worthy of NASA entry if your company doesn't lube the process.
Constant pressure to get results at any cost(students logging "solo" time in the parking bay is common/Testing officers are bribed to pass students is standard practice)
No Aircraft mechanics
No Avgas
That's without considering any of the cultural issues, some very well funded operations have come and gone. Beijing Pan Am had the largest Diamond fleet in the world and the instructor salaries alone were calculated by one bored instructor at over a $250,000US a month for sitting on the ground doing nothing.
Right now the most sensible thing for the Chinese Airlines to do is select the cadet based on his medical, sign him on a 99year contract and pay whatever it costs overseas to get him to a good standard. As long as the cadet never fails his medical it's a guaranteed investment for the airline.
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In my experience most of the Chinese pilots are very respectful and friendly. Maybe some of the posters here just work for an airline with bad culture.
Also, most of the pilots I fly with prefer flying with foreigners because we treat them well and they feel they learn from us. I think my airline actually favors crewing the first officers based on their requests...if a first officer doesn't like foreigners he probably won't get paired with them as much.
I also find that in discussions of pay (which we are told to avoid) the first officers understand that we make great sacrifices to work in China and while we occupy the same cockpit, our jobs are in reality very different.
Still, if the roles were reversed, I suppose a lot of Americans or Europeans would be very upset if a bunch of Chinese came to their country and earned more money. But in the end it's not like we're taking their jobs from Chinese, these pilots advanced as fast as they can and don't even comprehend the thought that a slow economy could slow their career advancement. In their eyes, career advancement is only limited by their own ability to pass tests.
Also, most of the pilots I fly with prefer flying with foreigners because we treat them well and they feel they learn from us. I think my airline actually favors crewing the first officers based on their requests...if a first officer doesn't like foreigners he probably won't get paired with them as much.
I also find that in discussions of pay (which we are told to avoid) the first officers understand that we make great sacrifices to work in China and while we occupy the same cockpit, our jobs are in reality very different.
Still, if the roles were reversed, I suppose a lot of Americans or Europeans would be very upset if a bunch of Chinese came to their country and earned more money. But in the end it's not like we're taking their jobs from Chinese, these pilots advanced as fast as they can and don't even comprehend the thought that a slow economy could slow their career advancement. In their eyes, career advancement is only limited by their own ability to pass tests.
