Debt between 165-200 thousand Euros?

[WantingBetterTerms]

Heard a few days back that some pilots are carrying massive debts on their backs after finishing flying training and buying a TR.

The numbers I have heard are between 165-205 thousand Euros

Can this be true or is it just another rumor?

If this is true then where does all that money go?

[Zippy Monster]

89 grand?!!

That's a nearly 50% increase in 8 years... it was £60k when I went through!

[RHS]

Add in a P2F lion air type 500 hour scheme and it's easy to see even the €200k figure isn't outlandish for the odd one!

[karanou]

89 grand ...... Hells teeth.

So, how do CTC manage to forge such close and tight links to partner airlines

[Crashlanding]

At the price of the course, i wouldnt be surprised if it was an unoffical kick back

[polax52]

Goes up with the price of London property because that is what the debt is secured on.

[Zippy Monster]

I take your point, but don't tar us all with the same brush. I will have my debt paid off within the year (6 years after starting repayments), and bought my own house last year.

(And am reasonably happy, and fairly sure my head is in the correct location as I type this.)

I'm neither for or against any training organisation. The course I took did what it said on the tin for me, and for that I'm happy.

However, seeing the way the industry has gone during the relatively short time I've been in it, I would not let my kids anywhere near a course costing upwards of £89k before you've even factored in living expenses, ending up saddled with all that debt just to get into an industry this volatile. At the end of the day, it's just a job.

[ROSCO328]

If my 5 year old even looks at an aeroplane he gets a swift bat round the lug!! Followed by the words " forget it pal ".

[Bealzebub]

Anyone who signed up for CTC (or any integrated course for that matter) post 2008, gets absolutely zero sympathy from me. They bought their tickets, they knew what they were getting into. I say: let 'em crash

The ones who came to us post 2008 have done very well. No type rating costs (to them). Full time employment contracts. Good salaries. Good benefits (company pension contribution/ private health / Permanent health insurance / loss of licence / etc.) Good early command prospects at around 5 years post joining. Most driving new cars, many buying houses for the first time. Debt repayments structured into an affordable income/expenditure package (of those I have been shown.) Jet hours rising at 750-800 hours per annum. Licence/ medical renewals all paid by company. Career in a good company moving positively onwards and upwards.

As you rightly say, they deserve none of your sympathy, they knew what they were getting into.

[TheBigD]

If my 5 year old even looks at an aeroplane he gets a swift bat round the lug!! Followed by the words " forget it pal ".

I would do the same to my 4 year old; but after having read the latest post from Bealzebub, I think I will point him towards BB for direction and guidance...........

[karanou]

That post is like the PPRUNE equivalent of a "glossy marketing brochure"

£89,000

[Bealzebub]

yet annoyingly true!

[Mikehotel152]

I hope nobody sees your post as an encouragement to enter the profession, Bealzabub!

There are exceptions to every rule! The vast majority will not see that scenario envelop them in its tender embrace.

Wannabes need to be told that potential ability and hard-work won't help getting into the best jobs. It's just luck.

However, potential ability and hard-work, combined with a lot of wonga will give a good chance of a 'job' of sorts...

[Bealzebub]

I would be very surprised if anybody did! The reality is probably reflected to some degree in the proportionate volume of posts describing individual experiences, and far and away the bulk of them are anything other than encouraging. Nevertheless, for a few there are bright spots and it provides a proportionate degree of balance to point them out.

You are quite right, the majority will not find this experience and I have made that point time and time again.

Cue the response of PPRuNe's resident idiot.
VVVVVVV

[truckflyer]

The generation of debt!
It would be fine if it was their own money they was playing with, however for the parent generation (who are mostly forking out with the guarantees for loans etc.), many of them are still stuck in time-warp where they believe the profession has a better standing than it really has.

If I talk to fellow professionals, they truly believe the pilot profession is good with regards to financial rewards. I have had few parents asking me regarding advice for their children considering the profession.

After telling them the hard facts, guess what, not so many feel the same about it.
Misinformation, lack of information, and to be honest some peoples posts here are so softly passive aggressive, that they try to take a moral high-ground that they being fair in their advice, while it is just much talk about nothing in the end.

Now I might come about a bit negative about the profession, but in this threads, compared to wannabes forum, there is a clear trend of people seeing the situation very similar to me.

Unfortunately I do not believe the bottom have been reached, I just recently heard a story of 5 guys, 3 of them already had TR, but they spent in total 75.000 Euro's each, to refresh their TR, and get 500 hours on type. We are talking about serious money 375.000 Euros in total.
And in the end, they did not even get their hours and was a very substandard TR refresh.

If people are prepared to spend this kind of money, for nothing, you have to ask yourself what is the future of this profession!

[TheBigD]

That post is like the PPRuNe equivalent of a "glossy marketing brochure"

Bealzebub, you ever consider a career in sales after you retire from flying?

[Northern Monkey]

The ones who came to us post 2008 have done very well. No type rating costs (to them). Full time employment contracts. Good salaries. Good benefits (company pension contribution/ private health / Permanent health insurance / loss of licence / etc.) Good early command prospects at around 5 years post joining. Most driving new cars, many buying houses for the first time. Debt repayments structured into an affordable income/expenditure package (of those I have been shown.) Jet hours rising at 750-800 hours per annum. Licence/ medical renewals all paid by company. Career in a good company moving positively onwards and upwards.

As you rightly say, they deserve none of your sympathy, they knew what they were getting into.

Bealzebub

What an astonishing post.

Are you honestly suggesting that the majority of newly graduated cadets get permanent contracts immediately with no TR to pay for, health insurance for free, duty pay, flight pay, pension contributions? What is this mythical company of which you speak?

The ones I have spoken to get none of the above. And they pay for their uniform and their medical renewal too by the way. And if they are lucky they will get a permanent contract after a year, which still doesn't include flight pay/duty pay.

You must tell me where I have gone wrong. I graduated in 2007 and started working in the right hand seat of an airbus in Jan 2008. I still have £20,000 worth of debt which I repay at £1000 / month, as I have for the past 7 years, and I am no where CLOSE to buying my own house or a new flashy car. And those coming through now will get nothing resembling the deal I got.

The only way a newly graduated cadet is gonna be buying their own place in the first 5 years is if a) they win the lottery or b) mum and dad give them their inheritance early. To suggest they will do so off the back of their new job in aviation is disingenuous.

[Northern Monkey]

In that case, people would be very wise to ignore his musings entirely since the vast majority of cadets graduating that particular flying school will not go anywhere near Monarch, nor the terms and conditions he mentions.

Honestly, I despair. What is the point of parading out the wonderful terms and conditions at Monarch when we all know that they take a handful here, a handful there while the other airline takes hundreds every year.

[NOT ORANGE]

It's not all bad,the boss of CTC just got a new Aston Martin,Ryanair and Easyjet are laughing all the way to the bank.When you add 50 000 quid for student loans and no chance of getting on the housing ladder you have to ask why the baby boomers are such a bunch of t***s.Still you get a nice uniform.
The government allows this as they have ridiculous pension obligations to pay and trillions of debt to pay off and who likes pilots anyway?

[TeaTowel]

Its been 10 months since this article was posted and brushed away by Bealzebub and others so I'l post it again:

Pilot debt, a safety issue?

By Dr. Simon Bennett
Director Civil Safety and Security unit, University of Leicester.

Some quotes:

My 2010-2011 British Airline Pilots Association(BALPA) funded research confirmed indebtedness to be a problem for pilots. The following statement is typical: "I accrued training costs of £118000 (ab-initio and two conversion courses) current debt left after repaying for ten years is £62000. Monthly repayments to the bank are £1050. About five years to go."

Asked to comment on the quality of First Officers one Captain said: "They seem to be selected more on...their willingness to take on huge debt then on their suitability for...command. They routinely seem to be in such dire financial situation that stress is only a matter of time." Having taken on huge debt, mediocre remuneration makes it hard for pilots to make ends meet.

Debt is a stressor. It limits options and life chances and circumscribes choice and geographical mobility. This is why newly qualified pilots find themselves commuting long distances on a daily basis or living in poor-quality, overcrowded accommodation while on duty.

Pilots careerism and vocationalism is exploited by the airlines who know that most pilots will accept base moves. Only if regulators reference the realities of of pilots' lifestyles can they deliver intended safety margins.

Are politicians, regulators and airlines in denial? Yes they are. This can only end badly.

Buy the mag and read the full article. It is a word of warning to all you wannabes out there who think massive loans are the way to go.