Debt between 165-200 thousand Euros?

[Superpilot]

Thanks for that TeaTowel. Eye opening. IIRC there was a similar letter to CHIRP a while back.

[karanou]

I do have some agreement with bealzebub if you consider the situation the cadets end up in at the operator he is employed by then - and this will go against the grain to most people - this type of training path to the career of Airline pilot can have the advantages as stated. I have friends who work for Monarch, and the feedback is of a generally happy bunch at a decent company that does hold empathy towards people.

And if the detail described in his astonishing post is accurate, and to my understanding it wouldnt surprise me, then the advantages are there for someone of the right stuff to make strides towards a very good career path in a very good company. However I still find the amounts of money obscene.

The problem comes when the cadet doesnt take the route (or doesnt know they are not actually on the route - or the route gets changed mid way) to a company who holds the levels of ideals towards people as this particular operator does.

The crux as stated is that this the very high percentage of those following this path will not end up in the situation as per BB's "astonishing post". It is obvious the ftos and certain operators are abusing their position. And that many inexperienced people are getting sucked in. It is absolute lunacy to connect this training path to be connected to a loco. The horror stories are there to be seen all over PPRUNE

Ironically the holy grail of the decent operators - operators who do have some empathy for the human being, are not exempt from the overall effect of the locos effect on the wider industry. And that is the problem for all to responsibly consider.

I understand there was a change in the screening process for at least one of the "large ftos" around the time the recession kicked in. I know at the time this was felt - in the cases of those who survived the rigours of commercial flight training - at line trainer level. This sort of gives an indication to the priority of the ftos.

[favete linguis]

Failing CTC you can always pay this clown:

Jonathan Curd The Airline Training Partnership Outstanding Debt

Another crook with morals lower than whale poop

[Northern Monkey]

I don't think any of us doubt that the terms and conditions on offer at Monarch are enviable for new starters, nor that the company is one of the few remaining who apparently value treating their new pilot's properly.

The problem is they take a tiny fraction of the overall number graduating from the big three integrated FTO's. Can anyone tell us how many cadets Monarch have recruited directly out of one of these schools in the last 3, 6, 12 months? Can they also tell us how many have graduated in total within those same time frames? If you're going to plan your aviation career based on the slim possibility of getting in to Monarch you might as well pencil in "A380 Training Captain after ten years" as well, for those are the odds you rely on.

Much more responsible would be to point out that the vast majority of cadets who graduate from an integrated flying school will end up working for one of the major low cost airlines initially, ie easyJet or Ryanair. It is those terms and conditions that people should be focused on and planning for and not the lottery win of Monarch.

[Bealzebub]

What an astonishing post.

Are you honestly suggesting that the majority of newly graduated cadets get permanent contracts immediately with no TR to pay for, health insurance for free, duty pay, flight pay, pension contributions? What is this mythical company of which you speak?

I am not sure why you perceive it as "astonishing" but nevertheless it is accurate. As to the last question, if you had read back a few posts I would appear to have answered when I said:

The reality is probably reflected to some degree in the proportionate volume of posts describing individual experiences, and far and away the bulk of them are anything other than encouraging. Nevertheless, for a few there are bright spots and it provides a proportionate degree of balance to point them out.

You are quite right, the majority will not find this experience and I have made that point time and time again.

In that case, people would be very wise to ignore his musings entirely since the vast majority of cadets graduating that particular flying school will not go anywhere near Monarch, nor the terms and conditions he mentions.

Honestly, I despair. What is the point of parading out the wonderful terms and conditions at Monarch when we all know that they take a handful here, a handful there while the other airline takes hundreds every year.

The answer is simple. Because these terms and conditions do exist despite the vociferous denials of many. They exist for cadets who become full time permanent employees and they exist for experienced pilots who are recruited to full time employment positions. They have existed for close on half a century. In the case of cadets this has been the case for over 15 years, and continues to be so. Ex-cadets make up nearly a nearly a third of the entire complement. In a company with a five decade history and significant renewal and expansion plans, these terms and conditions are relevant. I am sorry the numbers on offer do not meet with your personal approval and that such "musings" should be ignored. However, it is interesting that the T&C's for cadets at the big Orange airline have seemingly improved significantly over the last year. Ex-cadets from there who are now in the "experienced" category, have also joined us recently. suggesting something of a ripple effect.

Indeed you then go on to point out:

I don't think any of us doubt that the terms and conditions on offer at Monarch are enviable for new starters, nor that the company is one of the few remaining who apparently value treating their new pilot's properly.

The problem is they take a tiny fraction of the overall number graduating from the big three integrated FTO's. Can anyone tell us how many cadets Monarch have recruited directly out of one of these schools in the last 3, 6, 12 months? Can they also tell us how many have graduated in total within those same time frames? If you're going to plan your aviation career based on the slim possibility of getting in to Monarch you might as well pencil in "A380 Training Captain after ten years" as well, for those are the odds you rely on.

Much more responsible would be to point out that the vast majority of cadets who graduate from an integrated flying school will end up working for one of the major low cost airlines initially, ie easyJet or Ryanair. It is those terms and conditions that people should be focused on and planning for and not the lottery win of Monarch.

What you seem oblivious to, is the fact in that in the depths of a recessionary market (certainly over the last 5 years,) the major lo-co's were pretty much the only game in town for most people in the "cadet" marketplace. This was a dominance that those companies were not slow to realize. So if you want to highlight poor T&C's and doom & gloom generally, then look closer to home for an explanation.

As companies slowly emerge from recession, one or two airlines dominance is diminished, and as you are starting see for yourself, the T&C's are also starting to improve in at least one of those same dominant operators as well.

Giving a picture is about the whole picture, and not just the bits that suit you. There are any number of exponents of doom & gloom on these forums and many of them are mired in it. That doesn't exclude presenting the brighter spots, and nor should it.

[Three Lions]

There has never been as much recruitment onto the jet fleets of the UK and Eire as there has over the last few years.

There has never been a higher proportion of that recruitment favouring the cadet with no airline experience from just a few FTOs than during the same time.

There are more than enough decent pilots out there, with varying amounts of experience with good training records and a solid operational background that have passed through the high standard training team of any number of Airlines in the UK or even further afield.

Whichever way it is argued out, then logically the current recruitment set up in the UK doesnt stack up.

I have to say Bealzebub for your undoubted experience and articulation you are, as time moves on appearing to be promoting the routes favoured by one particular large FTO that is central to the current set up in the UK. Rightly or wrongly that is how you are coming across on this board.

I can accept you are trying to balance out the sea of negativity - caused in the main by frustration of those not necessarily clinging to the slippery rocks in the midst of the raging torrent of the stream of flight recruitment but quite possibly those slowly drowning in the stagnant pond of the current set up.

The current set up can only further degrade t's and c's for all. They are not going to drastically improve once the recession is behind us.

[Northern Monkey]

However, it is interesting that the T&C's for cadets at the big Orange airline have seemingly improved significantly over the last year.

You better tell the guys I know who have started within that time frame then who are largely reliant on mum & dad to bankroll either the rent or the debt, which together total more than their take home pay.

Giving a picture is about the whole picture, and not just the bits that suit you.

I would suggest that you could avoid much of the criticism that finds you if you were to follow your own advice in this respect. If you are going to talk about cadets buying new houses, cars, having free private health cover, free type ratings etc then why not in the same sentence mention the tiny fraction of graduates your comments refer to?

[truckflyer]

There is no doubt that Monarch is probably one of the better jobs in the industry. Unfortunately the number of positions available there is fairly limited, so very few of the bunch pilots being trained or looking for better improved jobs will get the chance of a job with Monarch.

It's a bit like winning the lottery, clearly a bit better odds than the lottery, but it's one of those jobs unless you have the right connections / friends or gone trough an integrated school that works with them, you probably have little or no chance.

Nothing wrong with this, this is like all walks of life, it's not so much what you know, more important who you know!

The Orange outfit also have a pretty good career progression, as long as you can get over the initial hurdle with the hard years in the start, after the TC's that are to come are not bad.

But these companies also have a strong union presence, which has worked hard to preserve these TC's.

Unfortunately I would say for the majority, at least in the start, very few will have the chance to get a good start in their career as they would with Monarch.

I would see Monarch as the ultimate company to work for in the UK, however I am not very positive to ever get the chance!

[Torque Tonight]

I had a young lad jumpseating a few nights ago positioning to do his initial line training. I asked where he was going to be staying, expecting one of the airport hotels, and he announced that he had his car in a layby on a lane near the airport and would be sleeping on the back seat for the next month or so. He seemed quite proud to tell us, as if we would be dazzled by his ingenuity. Poor little waif clearly could even afford a razor.


Out of all flight school graduates, this guy and his like, are near the top end of the success spectrum. You won't get a lot of fATPLs here on pprune bragging about how they're stacking shelves in the supermarket or collecting their dole every fortnight.

[R T Jones]

Whatever else can be said about easyJet, if they make you fly out of an airport that isn't your base, they will provide hotel accommodation and transport to it.

I agree that now the new entrant contract has been agreed there is career progression at easyJet. Yes, the first year of pay per hour is a bit rubbish, I did it for almost 3 years! £38k whilst you won't live like a king, should be able to pay your flying debts and get by. The FO scale at 75% is not fantastic I agree, but the 100% is £44k basic with another 5k or so sector pay. Don't forget your also getting 7% pension, eligible for the buy and save as you earn and free performance shares. Once at the SFO scale, its a £57k basic that is going up 3% this October, another £5k sector pay and a 5/3/5/4 roster. That comes up about 4 years after joining.
When I went through CTC the bond was £60k and foundation course £7k. It was an unsecured loan from HSBC. My type rating course was one of the first that required us to provide part of the money, circa £8k toward it. I'll admit, my parents and grandparents helped with the TR money. My loan peaked at £75k and now 4 years after joining easyJet it is down to £37k, with roughly another 3 years before I am debt free.
No, easyJet is not perfect and there are things that do need improving. However for the people that do manage to get in, through the flight schools or applying themselves. There are far worse places to be.

[Three Lions]

That is all well and good, but there is very little comparison between an operator of the standard of Monarch and the ezy ryr of this world. On pay, conditions, staff value , et al.

If we are not careful we will all be dragged down to the "loco level" - and that is the problem for the wider industry. Not just the cadet saddled with a "CTC sized loan" taking 3 years to pay off, on an "enhanced" Loco salary.

Good grief.

[go around flaps15]

I went modular because I couldn't afford CTC or OAA at that particular time. 5 months after I completed my training I joined Ryanair and stayed there for 4 years.

The loan for my training including type rating stood at just under 70k when I started on the line. In the 4 years I was there I bought a car which is now my own, got a mortgage, and paid a substantial amount off my loan which is now standing at just over 25k.

I've now left Ryanair and moved on to a much nicer operator and to be honest apart from the odd glitch here and there, the plan I set out to do when I embarked on taking up this career has worked out.

Was it worth it? Yes. I find the job immensely rewarding, I'm very proud to be doing it, and I have a very healthy work/life balance.

It can work out but you need to have a plan when you set out to do this.

But in these challenging times the most important thing you need is Lady Luck on your side.

The path on my journey has been littered with bodies.

Go in with your eyes open.

[Mikehotel152]

It can work out but you need to have a plan when you set out to do this.

But in these challenging times the most important thing you need is Lady Luck on your side.

Absolutely true.

[silverknapper]

GoAround

That's a nice position to be in.

I think you've hit the nail on the head. At some point in the last 8 years the line has very much changed from a healthy debate on modular vs integrated to a presumption that to get a job it's integrated or bust. I find this incredible. I trained under the modular system, came out with more hours and half the debt of a good friend who went to Oxford. And I got a job way before him. Despite the marketing crap they come out with there are a lot of ex Oxford students who haven't achieved what the marketing material promised. through absolutely no fault of their own.

I wish prospective CUSTOMERS (in capital letters as people seem to forget they are the customer, despite the joke that is selection at these places) could meet the people we all come across every day who would tell a very different side to CTC/OAA.

[go around flaps15]

I couldn't agree more. But at the moment CTC and OAA have the low hour market sewn up in the uk.

On what basis do I make that statement? Well the two main players in the UK market are Ryanair and Ezy.

Ezy take the majority of their low hour cadets from both the CTC Wings hold pool and also the CTC (AQC). The exception to that rule is an MPL course from OAA which happened two years ago I believe.

Now to the other big player -Ryanair. In my 4 years I worked at some very big training bases where I did a lot of safety pilot work with new joiners. The majority of new joiners I worked with were integrated OAA. Yes there was a few modular but most came from OAA.

So if we have now established that modular guys won't get a look in at Ezy unless they get onto the AQC scheme with CTC after their training,and only a minority of modular guys compared with OAA integrated will get a look in at Ryanair, what are we left with in terms of jet operators?

Monarch take low hour guys from both the CTC Wings and CTC AQC Pools and have a tagged MPL Scheme which runs with? Yes you guessed it CTC.

Thomson did take a few from CTC a couple of years ago but they now only take rated guys many of which are ex Ryanair and I believe any low hours cadets will be taken internally from people already in the company that are not in flying positions.

BA is all FPP which is integrated and mainly CTC.

Aer Lingus did a scheme with FTE and have previously taken a few from CTC. All pretty much integrated.

Norwegian run one course a year for low houred guys and that's an MPL tagged scheme.

Outside of that you have Wizz, Jet2,Flybe, who do on occasion recruit low hours guys from different training backgrounds. I can't remember when TCX last took anyone.

Do you see where I'm going with this?

Don't get me wrong I'm all for the modular route as that's what I did myself.

However the market I entered into 7 years ago is a very different beast to the one that exists today.

I will say it again. Go in with your eyes open. Don't "hope everything's going to be alright when you finish"

[Wireless]

From Mr Lions..

There has never been a higher proportion of that recruitment favouring the cadet with no airline experience from just a few FTOs than during the same time.

There are more than enough decent pilots out there, with varying amounts of experience with good training records and a solid operational background that have passed through the high standard training team of any number of Airlines in the UK or even further afield.

Whichever way it is argued out, then logically the current recruitment set up in the UK doesnt stack up.

I have to say Bealzebub for your undoubted experience and articulation you are, as time moves on appearing to be promoting the routes favoured by one particular large FTO that is central to the current set up in the UK. Rightly or wrongly that is how you are coming across on this board.

I can accept you are trying to balance out the sea of negativity - caused in the main by frustration of those not necessarily clinging to the slippery rocks in the midst of the raging torrent of the stream of flight recruitment but quite possibly those slowly drowning in the stagnant pond of the current set up.

The current set up can only further degrade t's and c's for all. They are not going to drastically improve once the recession is behind us.

Seconded. strongly agreed.

Just getting down to brass tacks. We've known about it for ages of course. But how on earth can this....

Press Release ? FAA Boosts Aviation Safety with New Pilot Qualification Standards

be so different to what's developing here??? Two western aviation regions. Bit of a yawning difference of 2 powerful regulators isn't there?

[Alycidon]

go easy on Bealzebub, he might have had his memory laundered

[fepilot]

Is it legal for companies to recruit directly from only one school given that all schools should meet the strict training standards and all students must pass the same external exams?
Cant imagine not being allowed to apply to some companies in other fields eg. law, dentistry, engineering et al just because I went to the wrong school...


For the youngsters who intend to pay large sums of money-getting a real job even if its part time may allow you to understand the value of money. Very difficult to live with such a huge amount of debt.

[Mikehotel152]

It happens all the time in other fields, usually University related.

Try getting a job at a City of London Law firm without having gone to Oxbridge. Not easy.

Wanna be in the Cabinet? Best you go to Eton...

[FullTanks]

Debt, training schools and airlines

I recently posted the following on a Wannabes' thread, but I think it has some relevance to the preceding comments here. As regards the choice of flight school, despite cadet experiences at all three major suppliers, they remain the schools of choice for all major UK operators when selecting graduates. They are seeking to employ those who have been trained by an organisation which they have probably audited themselves for suitability. The quality of the training is reflected in the quality of their graduates.
As regards the comment that City law firms will only recruit Oxbridge graduates, the range of universities may be a little wider than that - Russell Group plus Durham perhaps - but the point is well made and is a just comparison. It is also valid for accountancy, banking, management consultancy and many others, where the employer is seeking a known product from a known seat of learning.
The following omits to mention Monarch, but may be read to include that well regarded and long standing UK airline by inference.

Reality Check Required
Whilst I appreciate that many self sponsored pilots who achieved fATPL/IR qualification have, in the past, managed to secure flying positions with major UK airlines, both of the legacy and low cost type, the recruiting position is now far more problematical.
The very limited places available on each year's BA FPP program ensure that they can recruit both the most suitable, those most likely to complete the demanding course and, importantly, those whom they consider will have little difficulty during their ensuing careers in passing recurrent checks and conversion courses.
The majority of those who have been selected by BA are not enthusiastic teenagers (as I once was), but those with established and well remunerated careers. They still have the enthusiasm but were prepared to forego commercial flying until BA launched their scheme in 2011. The integrated / tagged courses with the three major training providers gave similar employment prospects to their successful candidates.
As I have tried to impress upon those thinking of embarking on a SELF SPONSORED integrated or modular course - you are by definition SELF SELECTED. Sadly the schools may consider you trainable - that does not make you employable. The unemployable (by major airlines) are distorting the market and having to face the reality of no flying job and a massive loan repayment. If you are considered to be the 'Right Stuff' by a major airline, you will be tagged for a course or offered a place on a version of BA's FPP. If you embark on professional licence training in the current climate without such assurances you will have only yourself to blame if you fail to find employment upon qualifying / graduating.
If you are prepared to accept the reality, you can still have a wonderfully successful career in an entirely different and rewarding field and still enjoy the benefits of a PPL, possibly owning your own or a share in an aircraft. There can be few, if any, other occupations in which so many have qualified who thereafter find themselves among the long term unemployed.
Good luck, but please be realistic. This is a time to let your head rule your heart.