Copilots in training departments

[PENKO]

Some obvious philosophical questions.
Can a training FO become a captain overnight? Of course not. So how can someone with no command experience help develop new captains? How can someone with no command experience judge the actions of an experienced captain?

Sure, if it's just a question of grading a hand flown single engine ILS, then I don't mind to be trained by an FO. But now that training leans more towards the LOFTS scenario's (with all inherent vagaries and grey areas) it is a valid question wether and FO with no decision making experience is the most appropriate trainer on the day.

I'm sure a training FO will do a good job 9 out 10 times. But there will be areas where he lacks experience or dare I say, credibility.

[7Q Off]

For some roles FO are fine. Ground school, dangerous good, etc, maby some SIM training (mainly to other FO). Other roles captains are more qualified. A check ride should be done by a captain, or a sim check to other captain.

[halas]

In the land of Sand, the big one has had FO's as trainers for years. Not so much now as the training has scaled back and probably only those that have medical issues now. Most have upgraded now.
On another note though is FO's in management.
We did have one guy who became 3IC on the fleet who failed his upgrade twice after three years in that position.
Don't think he's still here. However what a trail of disdain he left where ever he went. Not the most personable fella you have met either.
But l think the biggest issue against him was disciplinary hearings where he presided as judge/jury/executioner to, well, most guys senior to him.
The idea of his lack of experience in the hot seat riled so many.

[Callsign Kilo]

As an FO, I trained numerous crew members with various levels of experience and abilities in our sims. The role was interesting and challenging, training ranged from initial to recurrent. The training department in question was well organised, structured and supportive. They put a lot of faith in FOs who could never be considered vastly experienced,but who were well motivated and actually had an ability to train, rather than than a talent for ticking boxes, pressing buttons on an IOS and barking b.s. from the back of the sim. Yes there were a few of questionable standards, but they appeared to be very few and far between in my time.

I will also add that having thousands of hours of flight time has nothing to do with an ability to train. I have experienced my fair share of 'I've flown everything and anything' trainers who fall way short of the mark. Of course I can also testify to the opposite. The ability to 'train' is something you either have or don't have in my opinion. Some people just aren't suited, regardless of the fact that they are one notch away from test pilot status with Boeing or Airbus!

[OBK!]

PENKO

It sounds like you work for a very man and boy outfit. Why would someone in a different seat not have any command experience or decision making skills? Does your outfit not practice role reversal?

[PENKO]

Quite the opposite OBK, we have a very flat authority gradient. But command experience comes from making your own decisions as the final responsible. You don't realize that until your first few weeks in the left hand seat. It's nothing special, it's just a matter of experience.

Don't get me wrong, some of my FO colleagues are excellent aviators. I've learn quite a lot from FO's, in the same way as I've learned from captains when I was in the right hand seat.

Now try to answer my questions. How do you teach and judge the finer points of command if you've never been in that left seat?

[babotika]

We work for a very man-and-boy outfit PENKO, the background of the vast majority of current FOs and the usual shock/amazement from the left seat when you didn't just graduate from [OAA/CTC/FTE] last week is a testament to that. Yes the gradient is very shallow and flight decks are usually pleasant, but usual the assumption (as confirmed by past OM-B/C changes) is that the FO is inexperienced.

Now, about training, one of my favourite instructors during my initial TR was a FO and came up with lots of uniquely good advice other more senior Captains didn't think to share, maybe because day one wasn't so long ago so he still remembered some of the gotchas?
I don't think one needs command experience to explain someone how to deal with technical failures even when they affect airworthiness. If said pilot can successfully pass an instructor or examiner course then they have proved themselves capable and the quantity of stripes decorating their uniform should be considered irrelevant. As many have said already the FO may well have been in a teaching and/or decision making position in a past life - maybe not in an aeroplane - but then the non technical decisions aren't always to do with the aeroplane anyway, it's the bigger picture that counts isn't it?

All this is quite academic/utopian anyway... Much as I would like to think that the industry is/will slowly open up to the fact that some FOs may be qualified and inspiring instructors I sadly believe the reality is that training FOs will become more widespread for one single reason: cost savings.

[PENKO]

I never said that FO's can't be good teachers. Read my posts again. Nine out of ten times there will be no problem what so ever. But there will be some areas in which the training FO simply has no experience. If you are willing to overlook that deficiency in a trainer, fine, bring in the training FO TRE!
But who will conduct base training
Who will do the command assessments?
Who will do command coaching?
Who will do teach the command course?
Who will line train a new commander?

These questions show the obvious inherent problem with a training FO. But it goes deeper than that. For example, when a captain is undergoing recency training, the trainer will be in command even when he flies from the right hand seat. Would this be possible with a training FO? I have no principal objection against a training FO, but the practice can be problematic.

And regarding the man-boy relationship you talk about, maybe it is so in your base. We have no cadets in my base and believe me, there is no man-boy relationship over here. FO's here are vastly experienced, have flown all around the world, for many great and not so great airlines, or have built up experience in other bases. I deeply respect their knowledge and as I've said, I learn from them on a daily basis.

[NordicMan]

I am with you PENKO on this one. However where I am based it is very much Man and Boy cockpit. Most of the guys and gals are really nice people to fly with
but most have no experience outside this brigh coloured box.
I don't think they should be involved in any form of grading Captains decision making skills. It would be a very akward debrief and maybe you would have to fly with this guy a few weeks later.
I also believe that in our company it is all about cutting cost. It is obviously cheaper to use trg F/Os...

[zeddb]

If you are willing to overlook that deficiency in a trainer, fine, bring in the training FO TRE!

The airline that I currently work for has had two FO TRE's and they are both good at the job and accepted by all for all types of training and testing.

In today's climate with multiple redundancies common in a career people can wind up being First Officers for a long long time and even for life if they are unlucky. As long as the industry insists on seniority as the prime driver for command then that will be the case.

As one of the unlucky ones, frankly I get very fed up when some pompous arse tells me that there must be something wrong with me if I am still an FO and that despite nearly 10000 hours, more than half of it on my current type, I am unfit to pass on my considerable experience because I do not wear 4 stripes. The fact that I have training and testing experience in a previous life is dismissed as irrelevant just because I didn't join an airline on the right day.

Attitudes like that are the main reason that my imminent redundancy is causing me to ditch this whole rotten business and do something where ability and experience are actually recognised.

Given that Aviation in the UK at least will now only employ people straight from school, one has to wonder where the experience to train is going to come from, especially when existing talent is wasted in the way that it is.

I really am not going to miss it....

[pilotho]

I remember a captain disagreeing with me wholeheartedly that you don't have to fly at V2 during an emergency turn procedure despite it being written in the manual. Now would this captain have just accepted my words if I were a captain?

I feel as a trainer, you're there to give advice and I always point that out to crews. For some, they feel that I'm criticising them when I'm actually just giving them advice.

As for decision making, it's absolutely correct that I don't have left seat experience and indeed I chose to train because I feel I would gain valuable decision making experience from some great captains. At the same time though, it's clear when a crew hasn't made decent decisions even if one doesn't have left seat experience. Have they gathered all information and applied them to positively identify the problem on hand? Have they communicated with all parties and enabled them to do their jobs accordingly? Are they prioritising their tasks appropriately? Are they even using the correct checklist?

I'm there to observe and if they haven't done or have room for improvement then in the debrief I offer advice and discuss with the crew.

[PENKO]

Do you honestly feel that you are the most adequate person to coach a struggling new captain for example? Would you not defer him to your more experienced left seat qualified trainer colleague?

[pilotho]

If I don't feel my instruction is improving the new captain's progress then of course I would. However, this would apply to all situations; I could have the same problem with a brand new cadet that is struggling.

[PENKO]

But that is exactly what does my head in. How can an FO train another FO to become a captain? How can you mentor him? Based on what knowledge? Who taught you to become a trainer, a fellow FO?

Maybe my view of training is too romantic. I too would like to train others, pass on my experience and such. But even now as an experienced captain I ask myself if I am ripe and wise enough to take on that role. I don't just want to be a teacher, want to be a good and consistent mentor.

I have no problem whatsoever with FO's teaching typerating courses and such. Anyone with the right skills, patience and attitude can do that. You don't even have to be a pilot! But when it comes down to developing your fellow pilots, you need people with the right real world experience. In both seats. IMHO.

I remember a captain disagreeing with me wholeheartedly that you don't have to fly at V2 during an emergency turn procedure despite it being written in the manual. Now would this captain have just accepted my words if I were a captain?

One thing I learned early on in the left hand seats is that trainers are only human beings and that I can read OMA/B/C just as well as them. I have had to correct a senior trainer in matters of SOP. So don't take it too personally

[C_Star]

I am completely with PENKO on that.

Having an F/O trainer for Type Rating training is o.k. - the aim of the whole exercise is to learn operating the a/c according to SOP's and younger guys tend to know them in greater detail. The older guys sometimes just don't give a sh... to finer points of the OM's

But for recurrent training? I can read the OM B myself, thank you. I'd rather have a trainer with loads of experience, able to show me stuff which is not necessarily covered in manuals, various 'gotcha's' that every plane has. This can't be done by an F/O with just a few years on the line - even if he knows the manuals in and out...

[7Q Off]

Good point C_star

[babotika]

You're right, an FO couldn't run a command course or nurture a new Cpatain. I don't think anyone was ever suggesting that one could...

But a FO with more than a few years on the line, possibly having seen several sets of SOPs and operating environments might be equally, or possibly even more qualified to

able to show me stuff which is not necessarily covered in manuals, various 'gotcha's' that every plane has

than a Captain who has spent their entire career flying 20 routes to 6 countries in one airline/aircraft and got command/TRI sooner due seniority...?

[EAM]

Thats the point. I think no one said that FOs are running command courses, doing checks etc. The question was: Are FOs involved in training? Yes they are. In a few companies they are even doing sim training. In my previous company FOs did the normal phase and the first sessions of the abnormal phase, then a TRI/TRE continued the training. So where is the problem?
We had very good experience with that, because it is a very good training for the FOs themselves and by the time they have a very good knowledge of the a7c and the procedures.

[Uplinker]

Sorry, late to this thread, but zed mate, ++1 on your post #11 !!

Well said, well said. Too true sadly.


Quite often, a person who has relatively recently qualified is the best person to teach, (up to that level, and assuming they have teaching skills), because everything is fresh in their mind, including the traps and pitfalls. This person will not have become bitter and twisted either. The Atlantic Baron who has been in the LHS for 30 years may not be the freshest or best person to teach, and their methodology will come from the "gear up, shut up era", and their interpersonal skills may be lacking.

Teaching is a skill. The best teacher is the best teacher, whether that person is an F/O or not. The best Captain may not necessarily be the best teacher.

[PENKO]

You're right, an FO couldn't run a command course or nurture a new Cpatain. I don't think anyone was ever suggesting that one could...

I'm glad we agree on this because it exposes the deficiency in the argument for training FO's: if you can't nurture new captains because you lack relevant experience, can you still nurture more experienced captains when they face certain issues?