Commuting
Thread Starter
Joined: Feb 2014
Posts: 7
Likes: 0
From: Europe
Commuting
My big company has recently severely restricted commuting by its pilots. For example, we are not allowed to take a passenger flight in the morning in order to operate an aircraft in the afternoon for example. Reason given: fatigue. The company goes so far to state that the normal CAA flight time limitations apply when commuting by air.
What are the rules in your company?
Are you allowed to travel prior to starting your duty?
If so, are there any restrictions?
What are the rules in your company?
Are you allowed to travel prior to starting your duty?
If so, are there any restrictions?
Last edited by Trinovid; 11th February 2014 at 19:58.
Thread Starter
Joined: Feb 2014
Posts: 7
Likes: 0
From: Europe
Gentlemen, I assure you that I am nothing more than a very concerned commuter. I stand to loose about two to three days at home each month due to these strict rules. That's 20% of my private time lost. I'm very sorry that you think I am a trol. A simple IP check by the mods will show I'm not. Just very concerned by the way my managers re-interpret the flight time limitations hence my curiosity regarding commuting in other airlines.
As someone stated before, in no way am I more tired after a commuting short haul flight to base than my colleague who lives at his base but had to bring the kids to school, do some groceries, clean the house etc. etc.
My greatest worry is the idea that a commuter is bound by the flight time limitations in OMA! Hence my question how other airlines deal with this. No trolling here. Just a new nick name to guard my anonimity after years of activity on PPRuNe.
As someone stated before, in no way am I more tired after a commuting short haul flight to base than my colleague who lives at his base but had to bring the kids to school, do some groceries, clean the house etc. etc.
My greatest worry is the idea that a commuter is bound by the flight time limitations in OMA! Hence my question how other airlines deal with this. No trolling here. Just a new nick name to guard my anonimity after years of activity on PPRuNe.
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 465
Likes: 0
From: Finland
When I worked, now retired, for a large UK airline I used to commute, initially from Paris and later from Finland to LGW or LHR.
I often thought that I was less tired than when I drove from my Kent home, some 76 miles from LHR and around the M25.
I often thought that I was less tired than when I drove from my Kent home, some 76 miles from LHR and around the M25.
Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 6,729
Likes: 104
From: The Winchester
in no way am I more tired after a commuting short haul flight to base than my colleague who lives at his base but had to bring the kids to school, do some groceries, clean the house etc. etc.
FWIW our rule is still a "soft" one along the lines that if your journey to work takes more than 2 hours one should consider making arrangements to have accomodation available nearer the airport.
My journey is a combination of road and air, I'm on the move for about 2 hours, I've considered it...
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 919
Likes: 6
From: uk
Just out of interest,OP, what is your fall back plan if your commuter flight is cancelled or delayed?
Personally, I couldn't take the stress, but I do know someone who sits at a regional airport with an open ticket on his SBY's! But thats for LH, which make it all a bit more manageable.
Just to add, my outfit merely says you must live 1.5hrs from base, if you choose to live abroad you would have to travel the day before and be in the country for your SBY's.
Personally, I couldn't take the stress, but I do know someone who sits at a regional airport with an open ticket on his SBY's! But thats for LH, which make it all a bit more manageable.
Just to add, my outfit merely says you must live 1.5hrs from base, if you choose to live abroad you would have to travel the day before and be in the country for your SBY's.
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 269
Likes: 0
From: In the rain
Not a troll... I'm also curious as to what others can & can't do.
I believe that travelling by air to work is far less stressful than driving. I get on the plane, instantly fall asleep and only wake up as the engines are switched off again - far less fatiguing than having to concentrate on the road for 40+ minutes. The same could be said for a train or bus journey.
Sure the plane/train/bus might get delayed/cancelled/etc but then what about the car not starting, a puncture, an accident, etc etc etc. If you're late you're going to be late unless you sleep in the crew room. How you get there really shouldn't matter in the least.
I believe that travelling by air to work is far less stressful than driving. I get on the plane, instantly fall asleep and only wake up as the engines are switched off again - far less fatiguing than having to concentrate on the road for 40+ minutes. The same could be said for a train or bus journey.
Sure the plane/train/bus might get delayed/cancelled/etc but then what about the car not starting, a puncture, an accident, etc etc etc. If you're late you're going to be late unless you sleep in the crew room. How you get there really shouldn't matter in the least.
Thread Starter
Joined: Feb 2014
Posts: 7
Likes: 0
From: Europe
macdo, I have two other options to reach my base so no problems there. How many cars have you got to guarantee you reach the airport on time? 
As a commuter you very quickly learn what is sensible and what is not. Yes, a minority abuse the system at a cost to the company, so punish them. But leave the rest of us alone.
As a commuter you very quickly learn what is sensible and what is not. Yes, a minority abuse the system at a cost to the company, so punish them. But leave the rest of us alone.
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 919
Likes: 6
From: uk
Well 3 plus a bike if all else fails LOL!
The reason I asked is that personally I get very stressed about being late and leave a ridiculous amount of time to get to work for the unexpected. I have managed to be late twice in 16 years and I remember both days clearly! Now I must go and get my blood pressure pills......
The reason I asked is that personally I get very stressed about being late and leave a ridiculous amount of time to get to work for the unexpected. I have managed to be late twice in 16 years and I remember both days clearly! Now I must go and get my blood pressure pills......
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 3,648
Likes: 693
From: UK
Yes, a minority abuse the system at a cost to the company, so punish them. But leave the rest of us alone.
If you disagree with a law, don't have a go at the police, have a go at the lawmakers. In this case it's the CAA, not the company, you should be aiming at.
Joined: Jan 2000
Posts: 860
Likes: 0
From: FL410
Here a link to Certification Specifications and Guidance Material for Commercial Air Transport by Aeroplane — Scheduled and Charter Operations, CS-FTL.1, Initial Issue 31 January 2014
It does NOT define how the time is spent during the 90 minutes travelling time, so it could be by air... Open to interpretation...
GM1 CS FTL.1.200 Home base
TRAVELLING TIME
Crew members should consider making arrangements for temporary accommodation closer to their home base if the travelling time from their residence to their home base usually exceeds 90 minutes.
TRAVELLING TIME
Crew members should consider making arrangements for temporary accommodation closer to their home base if the travelling time from their residence to their home base usually exceeds 90 minutes.
Last edited by Skyjob; 11th February 2014 at 22:41. Reason: spelling...
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 3,648
Likes: 693
From: UK
Trinovid,
The CAA produces guidelines that (generally) must be adopted in the OM as part of the AOC approval process. The OM then becomes the defining document.
So you need to get an alleviation from the CAA, which then has to be incorporated and approved in the OM.
To do this, you will have to show that "positioning by air" has no impact at all on max FDP, and your rationale will be that positioning by air is not tiring (or is just as tiring as normal home life). You will be met with some considerable resistance to this idea - mostly from pilots. If you believe that going to an airport, checking in and travelling as a pax for a 2 hour sector should not count in the slightest as FDP, then you also believe that I can be called in by my company, shoved in the back (as a regular pax) for a sector, and then have my FDP start down route.
You can't ignore a rule/principle just because it suits you on one day, and then reverse it because it doesn't suit you on another.
As a pilot group we have fought long and hard to prevent positioning sectors from being discounted from FDP calculations. If you want to be able to position on the day to suit your living arrangements, then you are asking the rest of the world to be positioned by the company on a duty day and have all the FDP calculations to be started after that positioning.
The CAA produces guidelines that (generally) must be adopted in the OM as part of the AOC approval process. The OM then becomes the defining document.
So you need to get an alleviation from the CAA, which then has to be incorporated and approved in the OM.
To do this, you will have to show that "positioning by air" has no impact at all on max FDP, and your rationale will be that positioning by air is not tiring (or is just as tiring as normal home life). You will be met with some considerable resistance to this idea - mostly from pilots. If you believe that going to an airport, checking in and travelling as a pax for a 2 hour sector should not count in the slightest as FDP, then you also believe that I can be called in by my company, shoved in the back (as a regular pax) for a sector, and then have my FDP start down route.
You can't ignore a rule/principle just because it suits you on one day, and then reverse it because it doesn't suit you on another.
As a pilot group we have fought long and hard to prevent positioning sectors from being discounted from FDP calculations. If you want to be able to position on the day to suit your living arrangements, then you are asking the rest of the world to be positioned by the company on a duty day and have all the FDP calculations to be started after that positioning.
Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 6,729
Likes: 104
From: The Winchester
You can't ignore a rule/principle just because it suits you on one day, and then reverse it because it doesn't suit you on another.
, talking of ignoring principles:In the OP's case, under his company's new (proposed?) rule set it would be illegal for him to drive to an airport, to sit down the back and subsequently operate.
However under the new rule set he can drive to an airport, sit down the back and subsequently operate........
I agree that some commuters take the **** but in my experience that includes both some of those that travel by air and some of those that travel by road, rail and tube (who when questioned will say "ah, but I sleep on the train" or " ah, but I stop at the motorway services for a catnap", ), but those that travel into work by air are definitely easier to monitor (if they travel with their own airline) and an easier target.
All that said I have no idea what you do about it, some companies will no doubt favour the sort of ban described by the OP, and it's sure to become higher profile under the new regs.....
Last edited by wiggy; 12th February 2014 at 07:52.
Thread Starter
Joined: Feb 2014
Posts: 7
Likes: 0
From: Europe
If you believe that going to an airport, checking in and travelling as a pax for a 2 hour sector should not count in the slightest as FDP, then you also believe that I can be called in by my company, shoved in the back (as a regular pax) for a sector, and then have my FDP start down route.
With all respect, let's turn your argument around. Sitting on a couch at home watching tv or surfing the net does not generally have an effect on FDP. You could do that all day long and then report for duty operate a Sharm. So, using your above argument against commuting, time spent for example on airport standby should not count towards FDP. Some even manage to sleep on that couch, or sip Coffee in Costa for hours.
See the flaw in your logic?
Wether or not something counts towards FDP has more to do with the question who is in charge of that time than what is actually being done. As a commuter it is my decision to commute and I commute in my own spare time in a way I find suitable. Positioning however, like airport standby, is done on behest of the company, they tell you what to do and how to do it, wether you want it or not, wether you are tired or not. Hence the FDP clock starts ticking and rightly so.
So I don't see any reason why commuting has any influence in FDP claims towards positioning. To me that's seems a bit far fetched.
Thread Starter
Joined: Feb 2014
Posts: 7
Likes: 0
From: Europe
GM1 CS FTL.1.200 Home base
TRAVELLING TIME
Crew members should consider making arrangements for temporary accommodation closer to their home base if the travelling time from their residence to their home base usually exceeds 90 minutes.
TRAVELLING TIME
Crew members should consider making arrangements for temporary accommodation closer to their home base if the travelling time from their residence to their home base usually exceeds 90 minutes.
I'm not sure what this rule actually says about commuting. In fact, it encourages commuting doesn't it. It details exactly what commuters already do for years: they usually have a little apartment close to the base airport.
The guys who travel long distances by car every day should heed this rule more than the commuter in my opinion.
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 1,643
Likes: 0
From: UK
Trinovoid
You need to comment on 100% pleases reply!!!
Crew members responsibilities
Time awake (a big Union discussion on EASA FTL)
Commuting by air is less tiring than driving etc - agreed, biggest risk to a pilot is driving home
If your reporting at 1100 do you catch the 0700 flight before, up at 0500.
Operating flight is delayed by 4hrs now what do you do? Pax Flight is cancelled - ring in sick? tut tut that might be me on the flight that gets cancelled as they have no standby. Have you thought about the commercial risk - you're a highly paid professional Pilot
You have made an honest argument just don't think you'll get much support from the Union let alone the regulator.
You need to comment on 100% pleases reply!!!
Crew members responsibilities
Time awake (a big Union discussion on EASA FTL)
Commuting by air is less tiring than driving etc - agreed, biggest risk to a pilot is driving home
If your reporting at 1100 do you catch the 0700 flight before, up at 0500.
Operating flight is delayed by 4hrs now what do you do? Pax Flight is cancelled - ring in sick? tut tut that might be me on the flight that gets cancelled as they have no standby. Have you thought about the commercial risk - you're a highly paid professional Pilot
You have made an honest argument just don't think you'll get much support from the Union let alone the regulator.
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 3,349
Likes: 1
From: FUBAR
Bottom line is . . . if you choose (or are obliged) to work somewhere/live somewhere else . . . you will be tired, unless you want/agree to sacrifice chunks of your time off.
Certain companies make it easier for you to do better, by offering base stability /transparent basing policy . . . others just screw with your head & your life.
If you commute by car/train /another company it is between you & your conscience, we all read the Colgan report right ? if you commute with your own company . . . well, use your imagination vis a vis the potential fallout/consequences.
Your company will, in the 1st instance, look after their own ass. They will fatigue you when it suits them, but will castigate you if you appear to be fatiguing yourself. . . but hey, you are an adult, did you really expect anything different
Certain companies make it easier for you to do better, by offering base stability /transparent basing policy . . . others just screw with your head & your life.
If you commute by car/train /another company it is between you & your conscience, we all read the Colgan report right ? if you commute with your own company . . . well, use your imagination vis a vis the potential fallout/consequences.
Your company will, in the 1st instance, look after their own ass. They will fatigue you when it suits them, but will castigate you if you appear to be fatiguing yourself. . . but hey, you are an adult, did you really expect anything different
