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Ryanair denies exploitation of Pay to fly pilots

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Ryanair denies exploitation of Pay to fly pilots

Old 3rd Dec 2013, 21:46
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Ryanair denies exploitation of Pay to fly pilots

Quite some attention in the Dutch press on Ryanair lately. First Brandpunt, a reporter programme on Dutch tv, aired a third sequence on Ryanair last Sunday. Lots of repeat of the previous episodes on the three FR diversions to Valencia. Some news on the Norwegian threat.

Now the Dutch association of airline pilots VNV states Ryanair exploits young pilots by requiring EURO 30.000 to 50.000 to get their type rating. While they do their type rating the pilots do not get a salary.

In a response Ryanair says these are false accusations. Pilots get a salary.
Ryanair suggested Tuesday that VNV does these accusations out of jealousy. The pilots union, according to the Irish with'' KLM negotiate salary reductions and reorganizations, while Ryanair pilots can enjoy salary increases, good schedules and job security.''

The average salary for pilots at Ryanair is 130,000 euros per year. '' None of the Ryanair Pilots pays to fly,'' says the company.

Ryanair ontkent beschuldigingen uitbuiting piloten | nu.nl/economie | Het laatste nieuws het eerst op nu.nl
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Old 3rd Dec 2013, 22:38
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They do pay to fly, simple as that. Great to see it hitting the mainstream more often in the last few months, but I'm still disappointed they're portrayed as victims. With high unemployment rates in Europe and a more in tuned population with regards labour practices, these Ryanair guys wont be getting much sympathy from the general public for much longer.
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Old 4th Dec 2013, 03:43
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FO 4 years in RYR. Earned 190k. Over 3000 jet hours.

Just left RYR. Got my dream job.
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Old 4th Dec 2013, 03:53
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130000 average per year is just as usual as Ryanair a big lie....
As Captain ( permanent contract ) I got 54500 British Pounds per year before tax and social insurance paid.
On top of that I can count on an average of 1200 Pounds per month.
So it's around a maximum of 78500 Pounds per year and I have to pay for my medical , my uniform , my simulator training etc....
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Old 4th Dec 2013, 06:57
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Captain gets £78k Gross? In the UK? Permanent contract? Really?
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Old 4th Dec 2013, 08:50
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Pilotsjobnetwork has a detailed overview of salary of Ryanair pilots:
Ryanair pilot jobs, payscales and entry requirements.

CAE website clearly shows Type Rating costs for candidates of FR B737
https://pilot.cae.com/Programs/Ryanair.aspx?prog=6

Last edited by 1stspotter; 4th Dec 2013 at 10:36.
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Old 4th Dec 2013, 12:11
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Not sure which base contract you are or have been on dubaigong, but as far as I was aware no pilot on any permanent contract pays for their simulator training, but yes medical, uniform, parking,...

RYR do take a day OFF from your fixed pattern (5/4/5/4 or 6/3/6/3 subject to base) and reserve the right to use it as a working day claiming it's due to you losing out on a day of productivity when in the simulator.

So to me that looks like every year 3 days of simulator and a single day of SEP, thus 4 days of training, which the company can claim 2 day from your otherwise up to 4 days off entitlement. Many non-RYR guys would love that stability.

£1200/month average seems very little, which UK base is flying an 11 month average of ~50 hours? We rack up ~850 annually, so more like winter months £1200, summer months £2200 average, the month off is approximately £1100 as well.

£87k FY12, £92 FY11 (as operated more hours and worked more days off for a bonus), £87 FY10. This year a pay rise so to date £66k taxable gross in period 8 vs last year's £60k at same point in time. Looks good so far...

Seems to me you're in the wrong base.
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Old 4th Dec 2013, 14:24
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That would equate to €120.000 in Norwegian plus sick pay, holiday pay, crew food, all hotac & commute, no deductions for sim, medicals paid and so on. we even have window blinds in the flight deck, EFB,ACARS and free coffee & water!!

Little wonder every course is rammed with ex Ryanair guys, who are i might add superb
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Old 4th Dec 2013, 17:15
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an average of 1200 Pounds per month.
Don't forget this is net of tax so it's after 40% tax has been deducted. That would make it £2000 a month sector pay. You can't be doing much flying either, looks like just over 50 hours. Part time?
I would agree, I've never been able to earn £130,000 either, but about £100,000 is doable!
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Old 4th Dec 2013, 18:16
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WOW I had no idea the pay and conditions for perm pilots at Ryanair was so poor! There is going to a shortage of experienced pilots soon and so hopefully many can move on to better pay and conditions
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Old 4th Dec 2013, 19:42
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Little wonder every course is rammed with ex Ryanair guys, who are i might add superb
They do produce very able pilots through a very strict training regime.
But yes it is why several people vote with their feet.
When faced with the option available to them to upgrade or join rivals, such as Norwegian, easyJet (recently) and Emirates... Individual choices are to be made to stay and upgrade or move to new (greener?) pastures.

For most RYR pilots, especially LHS (older pilots), the fact that they are on a RYR contract allows them to live near (in most cases) where they want to live (home and family), not fly out from any other than home base (only contractors fly out of base), be home every night (great for those with smaller kids), have a stable roster pattern from now until years from present (plan-able life around work), ...

For them this RYR contract works out fine.
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Old 4th Dec 2013, 19:56
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The cadets get no pay until the safety pilot is released after 12 or so sectors of line training, and as zero-hour contractors, they are only paid flight pay with no salary anyway. So, they would indeed be unpaid for their ground school and sim training, and continue to be unpaid for all recurrent training and ground/sim checking, and also have to pay RYR several hundred Euros for those days until they can get a permanent position (usually gained with commands).
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Old 5th Dec 2013, 08:58
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Starting to fly for Ryanair from scratch paying the typerating only to find yourself in a situation where you desperately need to work on a poor zero hour contract with no real jobsecurity, no pay initially but lots of expenses to repay the huge debt collected and more or less having to accept anything coming your way is not the best of ideas for many reasons looking at it from the individuals perspective.

For employers it is great but as soon as the rosetinted views of being a pilot nowadays is no more for the cadets thinking about it in some European Loco´s then fewer and fewer will do it [pay almost 120.000€ for training]

Who needs who in the end of the day?
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Old 8th Dec 2013, 13:39
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"Exploitation" ? well, nobody is forced to apply , nor accept the conditions offered.
Unlike some SSTR schemes, this one has ongoing employment at the end (rather than the 6mths/500hrs offered by some) even if the contract is not stunning.

Anyone has the option of doing another profession, or doing the licence & waiting (for however long it takes ) to be plucked from the masses & handed a TR .

I do not defend the P2F / SSTR system, but it is a choice made by the individuals concerned, and has come about because of those preceding them.

In this case any exploitation is voluntary on their part.
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Old 8th Dec 2013, 20:42
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It is debatable which is more painful, the old self-improver method with periods of unemployment and very low pay as ferry pilot, instructor, air tax/bush pilot, gradually working up to regionals and through turbo prop command before landing a job as a jet FO, but paid by each employer (usually poorly until jet) and no type ratings to pay, or the new route of straight from school into a well decent pay jet position with the burden of paying for ratings and no salary until on line... Either way was financially crippling at the time, but I certainly couldn't afford a London flat or a new BMW/Audi like the new cadets while I worked my way up. I don't like the zero-hour contracts at all, but I think the modern cadets have the easier deal!
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Old 8th Dec 2013, 21:03
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No it has come about and becomes the norm because some people found a way to make some money on people already more or less committed to a thing.

Calling it voluntary and caused by predecessors conviniently and subtly avoid who actually benefit from it.
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Old 8th Dec 2013, 21:15
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Zipster, you are indeed correct, but, before jumping on the Ryanair-bashing train. . . how much do Vueling charge ? & how much does a Vueling FO earn in year 1 versus a Ryanair FO ? & more importantly, is there a "year 2 " with Vueling (I am led to believe quite possibly not )

This is quite categorically NOT to commend the "Ryanair way"", but there are worse choices out there for those who choose the "shiny jet" in preference to patience.
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Old 9th Dec 2013, 19:03
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The same goes for Vueling i actually went completely general there earlier not to be seen as a basher.

Prefer ability and experience driven selection any time of the day paid for by the employer. That´s not the same as saying there is no ability and experience selection today also. But there is a difference there. Gives the employer some incentives also to keep people working for them instead of today where in fact looking at it from a monetary perspective it is the opposite.
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Old 9th Dec 2013, 20:37
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I flew with a copilot recently who had was in his 2nd year in FR (UK) and had absolutely milked the backside out of the taxation system and was claiming back all his type rating costs, accommodation, mileage etc through his "Company". Wether he was full of bs but he said had been pocketing about £9K a month including his sector pay.

He now wants a permanent contract because he has run out of the big ticket items to claim against tax.

Only complaint he would like to be doing a few more hours but he wasnt claiming poverty. Maybe he just had a good accountant!!!!

Ps as a premanent Capt in FR you are given a £5K per annum Pilots Allowance to cover medical, loss of licence, sim hotac, etc
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Old 9th Dec 2013, 20:43
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9k a month? That is about 10500 Euro a month.. If he was 2 years in RYR he would probably be on the 78.5 Euro/h scale. If he paid absolutely zero tax and social security(which I find hard to believe) he would be flying 133 hours per month.

So I think it is safe to say he was taking the p.... on you
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