Air crew seniority.

[GlueBall]

Aluminium shuffler . . .

"However, since the worst case of redundancies was brought up, and how LILO would be fairest, let me counter it by asking how it's fairer that a senior Captain with an old and healthy final salary pension and kids who have long since flown the nest and a large house with no mortgage is more deserving than a younger one with a crap modern pension, hefty mortgage and a young family depending on him/her?"

Huh...? So the chap with the most kids and biggest mortgage doesn't get sent home during a downsizing of a company; rather, the "senior" (older) chap whose mortgage is paid off and whose kids are adults would be sent home.

[Silver Spur]

In the joint that I worked for some years ago:

1. DECs are only hired when the number of Effos upgraded to Capts does not fill the slots available. ( Mostly due to command failures )

2. All Effos follow strict seniority based on date of joining alone. That is to say, a military pilot with 10000hrs say Hercules time will be less senior to the freshly graduated 200 hour cadet if the military guy joining date is AFTER the Effo 'Release" date from line training.

Not going to comment much, but I saw more downs than ups in the system.

* For DECs, they are on the First-Year Captains Pay For 5 years before they can have a 2nd Year captains' pay. - that is, you only become a second year captain on the Sixth year of service with the company.

[Aluminium shuffler]

Glueball, my point is not that making the senior people redundant first is fairer, but that simply using LIFO is intrinsically unfair. Either is discrimination based on time served, and would be illegal in every UK employer. As stated elsewhere in the discussion about the FlyBE situation, the fairest way is to respect the law and limit redundancies to the fleet that is being withdrawn, be it a "senior" or "junior" fleet. It is, as was said then, the position not the worker that is made redundant, and playing musical chairs to keep those on higher salaries happy is as unreasonable as it is illegal. LIFO also means extra redundancies to cover the cost of the retraining and admin of the seniors being shuffled about - how is that fair to the extra few who lose their jobs to cover that cost? And if a company is on the ropes, wouldn't any costs imposed by LIFO be an unreasonable burden that could make the difference and push the company over the edge? How beneficial would that be to any employee, even the seniors?

There is no perfect system for any personnel management aspect, by seniority lists are absolutely evil and rotten to the core. The sooner that those airlines using them have to ditch them, which they will resist hard because of how much money it saves them by trapping their workforce, the better for all pilots. It's about time that aviation caught up with the employment practices of all the other professions in the civilised world.

[Trossie]

Aluminium shuffler,

Everything that you said there was absolutely spot on!

[BBK]

To quote, re seniority lists:

"..absolutely evil and rotten to the core".

Funny old thing, I've just been in a (seniority based) queue to buy some Crimbo shopping.

Oh well, we can expect to see mass resignations from BA to join RYR. LMFAO

Merry Christmas all the same.

ps edited to add:

My thoughts especially to professional colleagues facing redundancy at FLYBE. I was in the same situation many years ago.

[lifeafteraviation]

Wow, I've been preaching this same stuff over and over in other threads (even started my own last month).

I'm on board with Aluminium shuffler for the most part.

Maybe part of my own mistake was equating the pilots' labor unions with the seniority system. It seems they go hand in hand but there's no reason you can't abolish the seniority system and retain the labor union.

I feel that with the seniority system in place the union has been more useful to the management than the pilots anyway so what's the point?

I feel the end result of this system is that the airlines will be unlikely to hire experienced professional pilots when they need to expand and will instead hire younger and usually less experienced pilots simply because they have time to wait around in the right seat building total flight time before upgrading. It's unlikely an experienced Captain in a not so great job but earning a solid six figure salary is going to jump ship to start at the bottom of someone else's list.

When you take away the seniority system you will take away a lot of the imbalance of pay scales too and once a captain you will likely be able to always work as a captain. You would find that there is not much difference in the pay of a captain of a regional jet compared to a heavy.

You would also find better working conditions at the regional level....let me explain this one.... The main reason we even have regional airlines today in the US is because the major airlines know they can keep the pay scales lower with separate seniority lists. Otherwise the majors would just operate those regional jets on the same certificates as the big jets. If you want to change positions within the company ... i.e. go from a RJ to a Boeing or even vice versa (home more nights maybe in the RJ) ... you would apply for the opening within your own company or some other company and compete for the job.

Of course the regional jet manufactures won't like this because it may increase the operating costs of their planes... or maybe not because if you had a decent salary flying an RJ and a good schedule and home most nights... maybe you don't want to go fly a heavy on long haul. If money was no issue... that would greatly reduce turnover and training costs in the regional jets.... improve operating efficiency with experienced pilots staying in the plane...more money for salary... see?

Just purging my thoughts... I just think there is a better way.

[Bengerman]

Yup, way to go! Scrap seniority and replace it with a loyalty system!
Every year with the company, get a pay increment as reward for loyalty, as a loyal employee get enhanced rights to bid for work as your loyalty, measured in years, becomes greater than those with fewer loyalty years.
Have fair leave system based on points for more/less attractive leave periods.
Spread standby equally throughout the workforce.
Most loyal pilot gets first choice of chicken!

[7Q Off]

On most regionals the use of DEC could improve benefits, maby, I give you that. But in majors I dont Agree at all. You have there 10 to 15 years old (in the company) 10000 to 15000 hs FO ready to upgrade. For FO ready to upgrade you dont improve their pay, you just delay it. If you have a 10000 pilot company, 6000 FO, you attack 6000 guys, delay their upgrade with their money, delay the upgrade of FO with enough experience, some ex RJ captains, just to benefit who? just to benefit 100, 200 guys? I agree 100% with DEC when there is no FO available. But in majors???

And the pay in majors is better because of seniority and Unions like it or not. The same power that unions uses in majors to get better benefits could be used in Regionals.

The problem in regionals are pilots, no managment. Once pilots in Regionals start to think their jobs as REAL JOBS and not as a step for a major, things will start to imporve. Managment only uses that thinking for their own benefit. Change is up to you guys. Fight for Your Rights. Nobody will fight for you.

[Rick777]

I no longer have a dog in this fight as I am retired--thank God. I have been in the military where everyone is paid by rank, work for a non-union airline with no real seniority system, and worked for a union airline with a strict seniority system. I would choose the seniority system. Without it it is too easy for management to play favorites. The guys who take the illegal assignments and fly the broken airplanes are the ones who get the good schedules and early upgrades. It does nothing for the quality of pilots. In fact it makes it easier to protect the weak ones if they are friends with the chief pilot. People are all looking out for themselves so junior guys don't like seniority and senior guys like it. Just the way of the world. As far as seniority allowing management to erode pay and benefits that just means you have a crap union.

[A Squared]

Originally Posted by Rick777

The guys who take the illegal assignments and fly the broken airplanes are the ones who get the good schedules and early upgrades.

This is one of the standard arguments that is used to support seniority. If I may paraphrase: "Seniority is the only possible way we can resist pressure to compromise safety."

Do you *really* think that pilots are the only people on this planet who may face pressure while making decisions which affect lives?

Are you completely unaware that Doctors, Engineers, Boiler installers, Bus Drivers, Automobile Mechanics, and many, many more vocations involve activities which could potentially endanger human life? And that those practitioners may also face ethical dilemmas which in which there may be pressure to favor economics over safety? Are you also unaware that most of those people in those type of positions are not protected by seniority? Yet the world keeps turning.

The idea that Airline pilots are the only people whose jobs involve others' safety, and that the only way to manage that situation is with a seniority system is flawed in the extreme, if you stop and look at the world outside aviation.


What gets ignored is the the seniority system actually gives the unethical operators a *bigger* stick to wield when applying pressure to compromise safety.

Lets say that you're a Captain on a 737 for an operator who is really holding everyone's feet to the fire over fuel reserves; visits to the chief pilot's office if you put on more than the minimum dispatch amount, etc. etc. etc.

Now, all else being equal, which Captain do you think is going to be more likely to say, I don't need this pressure, and walk away from his captain's position which pays a comfortable salary?

A) The guy who knows that if things work out right, within about 3 months he could be sitting in the left seat of another 737, making a similar (Or maybe even higher) salary, perhaps for an operator who isn't pressuring him to fly with min fuel.

or.

B) The guy who knows that the very *best* he could possibly hope for is within 3 months being in the right seat at the very bottom of another seniority list, making first year probationary wages.


Do you really think that managers who might be inclined to place costs over safety aren't aware that they have a lot more power over pilot B then Pilot A? Are you so naive that you don't think that they use it?

[A Squared]

Originally Posted by 7Q Off

Seniority is not perfect but is better than brown noses.

Yeah, Brown noses. It's inevitable that derogatory terminology like this gets interjected into these discussions. The thing is when you start looking at what is meant by "brown noses" it becomes apparent that it's generally just a term for "being a decent employee". Things like showing up on time, not being pointlessly antagonistic to management, not being late with your expense reports, keeping up to date on your assigned online training, things like that. IOW, "brown nosing" seems generally to be a word for "not making extra work for the chief pilots office"

I really resent having to periodically re-complete the company's online Sexual Harassment training module. It's stupid and insipid and a waste of my time. But for whatever reason the company has decided that they want me to do it every year or 2 years or something like that. And that's part of what they expect in return for giving me paychecks. As annoying as I find it, it takes me 5 minutes to do. So when it pops up on my training assignment list, I do it. There are others who don't, so they show up on the radar at HR, and so HR puts together a list and sends it to the chief pilots office, and he has to send around a memo. And some still don't do it, so another list is compiled, and the Chief pilot has to make phone calls. Me, I choose not to pointlessly make extra work for others in the company by not doing the parts of my job that I don't like. If that makes me a "brown noser" that's cool.

My company recently had to scale back a little. As a result we lost a few really good guys off the bottom of the seniority list. But higher up on the seniority list are some chronic problem children; chronic sub-standard performance in the sim, showing up unprepared for training, numerous memos generated from the chief pilot's office, (some for operational safety issues), incompetence on the radio, stupid behavior on lay-overs, chronically unable to get manual revision sheets signed and returned as required, etc. etc. Never quite enough to fire them, but always creating headaches and extra work.

Anyone who is being honest knows these people exist, and knows who they are at their company. So, why when you have to furlough pilots should a company be required to lay off good, competent people who do their jobs diligently and well, and at the same time retain marginally competent employees who are continually causing problems extra work for their co-workers and managers? If those paychecks were coming out of your bank account, which would you prefer?

Originally Posted by 7Q Off

The only way they can get better pay is to organize, just ONE union for everyone, get rid of the scabs and strike. If you want to be treated like an adult act like one. Balls to the walls kids and strike. Every other way is fantasy.

Yep, just like Comair pilots did. Right on brothers!!!!.

BTW, how's are they doing these days?

[lifeafteraviation]

What /\ he /\ said!

What gets ignored is the the seniority system actually gives the unethical operators a *bigger* stick to wield when applying pressure to compromise safety.

An excellent description of how this works.

[swesty]

"Date Of Hire AND Birthday, with oldest on top."

Utter twaddle!!! You can be 65 with 200 hours.

Seniority implies date of hire only.

When designating command other factors come into play. Licence is obvious (ATP / Comm). Are you eligible for command?

Then it becomes a matter of company preference. The best one I have worked with is the rule of 3 :

A. Seniority
B. Total Time
C. Time on Type
(in any order)

Three factors ensure a "winner". Each category scores a point for the highest value and the one with at least 2/3 is designated.

Finish! Easy! Acceptable!

[parabellum]

Sorry Swesty but in 99 cases out of 100 you are wrong. It most definitely is DOJ and if more than one on the same day then it is oldest first. When it comes to promotion the 65 year old with 200 hours would not be in the frame and would there fore be bypassed until the next, fully qualified for command, pilot was reached. In seniority based systems it has been the accepted fairest way of dealing with pilots with the same DOJ.

[cvg2iln]

A Squared

Yeah, Brown noses. It's inevitable that derogatory terminology like this gets interjected into these discussions. The thing is when you start looking at what is meant by "brown noses" it becomes apparent that it's generally just a term for "being a decent employee". Things like showing up on time, not being pointlessly antagonistic to management, not being late with your expense reports, keeping up to date on your assigned online training, things like that. IOW, "brown nosing" seems generally to be a word for "not making extra work for the chief pilots office"

etc.

So you in common with the majority of your peers in good time complete the online sexual harassment tutorial, submit the online SOP quiz and comply with the seemingly never ending requirements of the other online stuff which in no way now, nor ever, will have any relevance to the job which you daily and routinely do in a satisfactory manor to meet the required standard. Bravo! Welcome to the club.

In addition: you read your SOP revisions, you send acknowledgement for said revisions to the CP's office and you obediently dance to the tune called by the authority signing your paycheck (sensible). As indeed do the vast majority (key phrase) of your peers.

There's certainly no brown stain on your magnificent proboscis....but then of course the vast majority (key phrase again) of your peers are similarly, snow-white and squeaky-clean.

We're all much of a muchness. A peer group; a collection of individuals who as a group demonstrate the attainment of a set performance standard. We routinely pass our simulator checks and line evaluations. (It's true, as pertaining to the vast majority - that key phrase again.)

Do please explain (without reference to the occasional bad apple) as to who exactly should sit in the left seat and why, when the vast majority attain and subsequently maintain the required standard throughout?

[Tankengine]

Sweaty and Parrabellum,
In my airline you are both wrong!
Is is date of joining + hours at that date rather than age.
In my case there were eight of us, ranging from 6000hrs down to about 1300 hours. The bottom guy was a fighter pilot though.
I think this is a fairer system than age. (Age based discrimination is illegal here anyway!)

[parabellum]

Tankengine - Probably comes down to the same thing in the end!

[A Squared]

Originally Posted by cvg2iln

Do please explain (without reference to the occasional bad apple) as to who exactly should sit in the left seat and why, when the vast majority attain and subsequently maintain the required standard throughout?

Sure. My example of the guys who create extra work for the adminstrative types by dragging their heels on accomplishing the BS details of being a pilot was intended as a single example, not the only one as you have misinterpreted. I assume that you were intentionally playing dense for rhetorical purposes and that you aren't really unable to see that.

Since you're obviously a huge fan of the phrase "vast majority" we'll continue with that theme. You do it the same way that position assignments and promotions are determined in the *vast majority* of the rest of the working world: by some combination of job performance, training and job experience. That's kind of my central point, the people who think that seniority is the only possible way, act as if anything other than seniority based advancement is some sort of radical new bizarre and untested thinking. In reality, it's not. That is the way the *vast majority* of the rest of the planet operates, and have for the *vast majority* of history. It's only when you exist in the artificial microcosm of aviation (or some other highly unionized industry) that one develops the misconception that seniority is the only way.

One of the fascinating aspects of the reasoning (if we can stretch the definition a little) against anything but seniority based advancement is that the following arguments are advanced in parallel:

1) Merit based advancement is impossible because there is no way to distinguish merit among pilots because they all meet minimum standards, and there's too many of them to identify individual performance anyway.

2) Seniority is *necessary* as it's the only way to prevent favoritism among individuals, and/or retaliation against individuals for refusal to compromise safety.

We'll ignore for the moment that "only way to prevent retaliation for refusal to compromise safety" is, as was pointed out earlier, a specious argument, as a seniority based industry actually gives unscrupulous managers *more* power over pilots, not less. Instead, let us consider the cognitive dissonance required to believe, at the same time, that these hypothetical evil managers both *know* the pilots well enough on an individual basis to form a desire to play favorites and retaliate against specific individuals, but *do not know* the pilots well enough to identify who is good at their job and who is not. It is interesting to observe the mental gymnastics required to simultaneously make both conflicting claims and maintain a straight face. Nonetheless, many seem able to accomplish this.

Moving past the illogic of the conflicting claims, and avoiding, as requested, reference to the "problem children" with sub par performance; In any organization, and airlines are no different (again. remember this is the way that *vast majority* of the world outside airlines works) there exist within the group of individuals *who meet the minimum standard*, those who *only* perform to the minimum standard, and those who put in the extra effort to perform above the minimum; those who make the extra effort to assure that operations go smoothly, both in the air and on the ground, ensure that things which need to get done, get done on time and with a minimum of ruffled feathers, those who do *not* take the attitude of "not my job" and who do what needs to be done to make the airline run. We've all flown with both types. The idea that nobody knows who the "go the extra mile" types are and who the "bare minimum" types are, and that it would be impossible to identify either is specious at best. The *vast majority* of the rest of the working world does this, and there is nothing unique about aviation which makes it impossible to do with flight crew.

[Tourist]

A Squared

Beautifully put.

I think you are wasting your time though, I have given up trying to win this argument because I have come to realise that there is no argument to have.

Either consciously or unconsciously, I think all pilots know the truth of your argument.

I just think that many who have put in hard years at the hind tit under a seniority system are just hoping that the emperors new clothes will not be exposed before they retire....

They knew the truth when they were junior, they know the truth now.

[lifeafteraviation]

It may not be such a waste of time. More and more professionals are seeing the inherent flaws in the seniority system.

I've stated before that seniority systems and unions are not the same thing or mutually dependent. There is no reason why you must have a seniority system to obtain the protections and negotiating power of a union in a large organization. The argument that seniority is there to protect pilots is nonsense.

I think there will be a shakeup of the seniority system and new ways of thinking in the coming years especially at the regional and smaller airlines where it is difficult to maintain the rosters of experienced captains and the young low timers coming up the ranks may not want or be ready for the left seat in a jet airliner.

The seniority system is better suited to very large airlines that can and do hire only the most qualified of candidates and pay a reasonable salary either at the outset or early on.