Air crew seniority.
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Trossie . . .
Wouldn't a 'first-come-first-served' system be much fairer?
So Trossie, are you telling us that when you're a senior captain, you wouldn't mind to give up your X-mas vacation so that a junior captain can be home for X-mas? ...and as a senior captain, having bid daytime Honolulu trips, you wouldn't mind working the midnight Mexico City trips so that a junior captain may have those easy daytime Honolulu runs?
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GlueBall, you clearly didn't read my post properly. Try reading it again carefully next time. I can understand you being so bitter about snatching that Christmas leave from the juniors as you probably had years of purgatory not getting that Christmas leave when you were a junior. What a horrible way to make Christmas leave (or any other leave) decisions. There are much fairer ways that ensure that people can work their way through their careers without building up the levels of bitterness that lead to the "tyranny of the seniors". A captain's a captain's captain. What's this 'junior' and 'senior' nonsense. If the nice work and the not-so-nice work was shared out equally then everyone gets through all of their career without building up this resentment that leads to these antiquated medieval 'pecking order' ladders that are known as 'seniority lists'.
It is good to hear Count von Altibar's comment that seniority lists are on their way out. About time!
It is good to hear Count von Altibar's comment that seniority lists are on their way out. About time!
If anyone thinks getting rid of seniority is going to help the employment terms of the junior guys you are sadly mistaken. If there is no seniority list then the company can recruit direct entry Captains and they will do the job for less than the current ones. Someone, somewhere will do your job for a lot less so be careful what you wish for.
Why do you think the Low Cost operators don't want seniority lists. They want a malleable workforce that they can "reward" with a command. I'm sorry if the junior guys don't get their bids, xmas off etc but we all did it and aviation was a better place to work then.
Oh and another thing, in my company if you don't make the grade you will NOT be promoted. It really is that simple and the TRE may be your best mate on a night stop but they do not, in my view, compromise in this area.
Why do you think the Low Cost operators don't want seniority lists. They want a malleable workforce that they can "reward" with a command. I'm sorry if the junior guys don't get their bids, xmas off etc but we all did it and aviation was a better place to work then.
Oh and another thing, in my company if you don't make the grade you will NOT be promoted. It really is that simple and the TRE may be your best mate on a night stop but they do not, in my view, compromise in this area.
Last edited by BBK; 27th Nov 2013 at 09:22. Reason: minor amendment
Seniority to bid for domicile is not unique to aviation. Here in Australia, a new teacher working for a government education system is likely to get posted to some little hick town initially and only work back to a more desirable metropolitan post after serving time in the bush. Ditto for cops, air traffic controllers, nurses, priests etc.
The old bid system for flying patterns and leave was a bit unfair, because as has been mentioned, some guys might have to wait many years to get the decent trips or Xmas leave. It is preferable to share that equally i.e. if you get Xmas this year you go to the bottom of the waiting list next year and work back up until it's your turn again etc.
As for equipment assignments - why shouldn't the longest serving (and hence well-known and probably more likely to stay) pilots get first crack at the bigger or newer gear? If I had been with an airline for 10 years, always performed well, done a good job etc., and a new wonderjet was introduced I would be mightily disgruntled if it was fully-crewed by DECs or two year tyros. Airline managements need to balance the financial disadvantages of seniority against the benefits of lower crew turnover.
And for those who argue seniority stifles mobility, with sufficient experience under your belt there are always opportunities elsewhere to start again without losing captain rank. Just not in your home-town with your legacy carrier. If you missed out there or chose a different path when you could have had a job there, you can't expect to swan in now at the top of the tree. If being at home is now your priority, accept that you WILL start at the bottom again.
The old bid system for flying patterns and leave was a bit unfair, because as has been mentioned, some guys might have to wait many years to get the decent trips or Xmas leave. It is preferable to share that equally i.e. if you get Xmas this year you go to the bottom of the waiting list next year and work back up until it's your turn again etc.
As for equipment assignments - why shouldn't the longest serving (and hence well-known and probably more likely to stay) pilots get first crack at the bigger or newer gear? If I had been with an airline for 10 years, always performed well, done a good job etc., and a new wonderjet was introduced I would be mightily disgruntled if it was fully-crewed by DECs or two year tyros. Airline managements need to balance the financial disadvantages of seniority against the benefits of lower crew turnover.
And for those who argue seniority stifles mobility, with sufficient experience under your belt there are always opportunities elsewhere to start again without losing captain rank. Just not in your home-town with your legacy carrier. If you missed out there or chose a different path when you could have had a job there, you can't expect to swan in now at the top of the tree. If being at home is now your priority, accept that you WILL start at the bottom again.
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Bingo there it is!
And not once in that post does the word pay $$$ come up it's all about being a bloody captain who gives a **** why the hell should a guy/girl with experience to do the job ACCEPT that they have to move to the bottom and take a pay cut, who cares if you have DECs or DEF/Os.
I can't believe you're advocating that a decision someone may have made 20+yrs ago is final and if they want a change of lifestyle or a pay rise that they would be swanning in. You act like crew in Australia wouldn't want the opportunity to try overseas after 20yrs in aust?
Not everyone wants what you want, you really want that shiny jet after 10yrs the company will love you how about a pay cut with that? "Yes please"
Without seniority those who want pay can chase it where ever they want.
Without seniority those who want shiny jets can chase it where ever they want.
Without seniority those who want lifestyle can chase it where ever they want.
Without seniority you can chase any of the above where ever they want and whenever they want that's what mobility is all about and is how the rest of the world operates.
And not once in that post does the word pay $$$ come up it's all about being a bloody captain who gives a **** why the hell should a guy/girl with experience to do the job ACCEPT that they have to move to the bottom and take a pay cut, who cares if you have DECs or DEF/Os.
I can't believe you're advocating that a decision someone may have made 20+yrs ago is final and if they want a change of lifestyle or a pay rise that they would be swanning in. You act like crew in Australia wouldn't want the opportunity to try overseas after 20yrs in aust?
Not everyone wants what you want, you really want that shiny jet after 10yrs the company will love you how about a pay cut with that? "Yes please"
Without seniority those who want pay can chase it where ever they want.
Without seniority those who want shiny jets can chase it where ever they want.
Without seniority those who want lifestyle can chase it where ever they want.
Without seniority you can chase any of the above where ever they want and whenever they want that's what mobility is all about and is how the rest of the world operates.
Last edited by SMOC; 25th Nov 2013 at 23:46.
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Clearly correct. To maintain seniority is foolish and works for no one in the end. Creates handcuffs for everyone, management, airlines and of course pilots. It is an ancient backward system ditched by almost every other industry.
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A lot of people have taken jobs with poor terms and in less than ideal locations because they were the only jobs available. Those advocating seniority lists tend to be those who fortune has heavily favoured with their CV crossing the right desk at the right time - getting the plum jobs has much more to do with chance and contacts than ability and character. So, should those who have put up with awful jobs be further punished by being frozen out unless they start from scratch again just because they didn't happen to complete their training when a legacy carrier was recruiting?
Odd how those advocating the seniority lists accuse others of selfishness; seniority allows a precious few to cherry pick type, base, routes, leave and the best pay at the expense of their colleagues in the same airline and to freeze others' careers in inferior jobs. That's hardly a generous spirit is it? A little hypocritical to accuse others of selfishness, no?
Odd how those advocating the seniority lists accuse others of selfishness; seniority allows a precious few to cherry pick type, base, routes, leave and the best pay at the expense of their colleagues in the same airline and to freeze others' careers in inferior jobs. That's hardly a generous spirit is it? A little hypocritical to accuse others of selfishness, no?
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Seniority has many problems, but the one thing it does offer is transparency and unlike a meritocracy, which is highly subjective, not always transparent or open for all to see and normally means being graded against a set of criteria designed by someone who may have a different outlook to those being graded.
Neither is perfect.
Neither is perfect.
Al Shuffler
Perhaps my post seemed a bit too harsh and in all fairness your post was a reasonable one. I'm a mild mannered chap really.
I agree with South Coast ie seniority is not perfect but it is transparent. Fairness, I would argue, is in the eye of the beholder!
For example: imagine a FO who has just got the minimum hours for a command in his non seniority company. He/she has got good grades since joining the company direct from training. All of the TREs have flown with said individual and the Fleet office pencil them in for a command course.
Then a rival company, flying the same type, go bust flooding the market with type rated pilots. The company, to save money, decide it will be cheaper to employ one of the experienced Captains leaving our FO to wonder "if only we had a seniority list!".
The reason this argument keeps going around is that there will always be winners and losers. For me the big pro with seniority is at least you know where you stand. Not perfect I will grant you but at least you can make some, hopefully, intelligent career choices. However, there is still a large element of luck. I started 2001 at the top of one list, with a command on the horizon, changed jobs and was on the redundancy list at the end of the year. It was a gamble but I still think I made the right choice.
Perhaps my post seemed a bit too harsh and in all fairness your post was a reasonable one. I'm a mild mannered chap really.
I agree with South Coast ie seniority is not perfect but it is transparent. Fairness, I would argue, is in the eye of the beholder!
For example: imagine a FO who has just got the minimum hours for a command in his non seniority company. He/she has got good grades since joining the company direct from training. All of the TREs have flown with said individual and the Fleet office pencil them in for a command course.
Then a rival company, flying the same type, go bust flooding the market with type rated pilots. The company, to save money, decide it will be cheaper to employ one of the experienced Captains leaving our FO to wonder "if only we had a seniority list!".
The reason this argument keeps going around is that there will always be winners and losers. For me the big pro with seniority is at least you know where you stand. Not perfect I will grant you but at least you can make some, hopefully, intelligent career choices. However, there is still a large element of luck. I started 2001 at the top of one list, with a command on the horizon, changed jobs and was on the redundancy list at the end of the year. It was a gamble but I still think I made the right choice.
MEMO
FROM: CEO, PINEAPPLE AIRLINES
TO: HR MANAGER, CHIEF PILOT
SUBJECT: FREEDOM OF PILOT MOVEMENT
BACKGROUND:
Seniority for pilots has been declared illegal, unconstitutional and an impediment to free and unregulated movement of labour between countries or companies. Pilots are not to be singled out as a privileged group to be protected by seniority.
INSTRUCTIONS:
1. Advertise internationally and on pilot recruitment websites, offering positions on our new fleet of Wunderbus aircraft to pilots of any nationality, holding any ICAO licence.
2. Invite applicants to tender salary bids - accept those with the lowest.
3. Remove all references to seniority from existing pilot contracts or agreements. As the rank of Captain implies a more senior status to that of First Officer, delete these terms. Replace all with the common term 'Driver-Airframe'.
4. All insignia defining seniority, hence rank - such as gold braid - is to be removed from uniforms. Replace existing pilot uniforms with flouro yellow overalls as issued to forklift drivers. Thus saving tailoring costs, enhancing safety while retaining visibility (which we understand pilots desire).
5. In future, the polite address for 'Captain' will be 'Comrade' - as it will be for former First Officers and all other staff.
5. Because we expect the Jurassic fleet to be scrapped within the next two years - to be replaced by Wunderbusses - advise all Jurassic Drivers-Airframe that their positions will become redundant.
6. Jurassic Drivers-Airframe may self-fund Wunderbus type ratings and re-apply for positions on that fleet, subject to their salary tenders matching or undercutting those tendered by the more recently hired Wunderbus Drivers-Airframe.
7. However, as their base assignments will have been filled by the new recruits, in the interests of freedom of movement, former Jurassic pilots can bid for any out-station within the company network where there is a vacancy. As there is no seniority, outstation appointments will be at sole direction of management.
8. Should there be no outstation vacancies, former Jurassic pilots will be made redundant.
CONCLUSION:
If there are no vacancies, having been freed of the 'handcuffs' of seniority, at least former pilots can go with our blessing to any new job that may be available in a competing company. That company may well be in China, India or Africa, but they, their wives and children will find this a positively enriching experience. They also should take heart from the thought that if they acquire experience on the Next Generation Spaceliner and we re-equip, they will be most welcome to return and replace the Wunderbus crews as that type becomes obsolete. We see this as a win win situation.
FROM: CEO, PINEAPPLE AIRLINES
TO: HR MANAGER, CHIEF PILOT
SUBJECT: FREEDOM OF PILOT MOVEMENT
BACKGROUND:
Seniority for pilots has been declared illegal, unconstitutional and an impediment to free and unregulated movement of labour between countries or companies. Pilots are not to be singled out as a privileged group to be protected by seniority.
INSTRUCTIONS:
1. Advertise internationally and on pilot recruitment websites, offering positions on our new fleet of Wunderbus aircraft to pilots of any nationality, holding any ICAO licence.
2. Invite applicants to tender salary bids - accept those with the lowest.
3. Remove all references to seniority from existing pilot contracts or agreements. As the rank of Captain implies a more senior status to that of First Officer, delete these terms. Replace all with the common term 'Driver-Airframe'.
4. All insignia defining seniority, hence rank - such as gold braid - is to be removed from uniforms. Replace existing pilot uniforms with flouro yellow overalls as issued to forklift drivers. Thus saving tailoring costs, enhancing safety while retaining visibility (which we understand pilots desire).
5. In future, the polite address for 'Captain' will be 'Comrade' - as it will be for former First Officers and all other staff.
5. Because we expect the Jurassic fleet to be scrapped within the next two years - to be replaced by Wunderbusses - advise all Jurassic Drivers-Airframe that their positions will become redundant.
6. Jurassic Drivers-Airframe may self-fund Wunderbus type ratings and re-apply for positions on that fleet, subject to their salary tenders matching or undercutting those tendered by the more recently hired Wunderbus Drivers-Airframe.
7. However, as their base assignments will have been filled by the new recruits, in the interests of freedom of movement, former Jurassic pilots can bid for any out-station within the company network where there is a vacancy. As there is no seniority, outstation appointments will be at sole direction of management.
8. Should there be no outstation vacancies, former Jurassic pilots will be made redundant.
CONCLUSION:
If there are no vacancies, having been freed of the 'handcuffs' of seniority, at least former pilots can go with our blessing to any new job that may be available in a competing company. That company may well be in China, India or Africa, but they, their wives and children will find this a positively enriching experience. They also should take heart from the thought that if they acquire experience on the Next Generation Spaceliner and we re-equip, they will be most welcome to return and replace the Wunderbus crews as that type becomes obsolete. We see this as a win win situation.
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Seniority is a lifesaver, if you have it.Seniority that is!
Scenario 1- expanding airline, buggins turn + minimum competency requirements give you a quick command. Lots of recruitment boots you up the list quickly, more underneath=more protection from........
Scenario 2- contracting airline. Now come the redundancies, demotions, re-basings etc. How to choose? well LIFO is cold and fair, add to it the required 'extra factors' to make it legal (eg. if you have a disciplinary on your record you lose 18 month seniority) and it is, above all else, transparent.
Its not a perfect system (neither is democracy) and it does protect the very few incompetent pilots (shouldn't it be the training dept. dealing with these?) in any organisation, but the meritocracy whilst attractive to the young and ambitious, will turn and bite them big time when they are less young and redundancy time beckons.(and God forbid, in the bad books of management) Its only a matter of time before one of the major LoCo's fail.
I have seen a 'job at risk' letter in my post in the past and I can tell you I have never been more glad to be in a seniority based airline. Even though I was in the bottom 30 of the list. This comes down to self preservation not selfishness. If, as is happening at a UK airline at this time, you have the 'base is closed, you're all sacked' scenario, it doesn't matter how hot a pilot you are, you're still unemployed.
Beware of what you wish for, as you may be granted it.
Scenario 1- expanding airline, buggins turn + minimum competency requirements give you a quick command. Lots of recruitment boots you up the list quickly, more underneath=more protection from........
Scenario 2- contracting airline. Now come the redundancies, demotions, re-basings etc. How to choose? well LIFO is cold and fair, add to it the required 'extra factors' to make it legal (eg. if you have a disciplinary on your record you lose 18 month seniority) and it is, above all else, transparent.
Its not a perfect system (neither is democracy) and it does protect the very few incompetent pilots (shouldn't it be the training dept. dealing with these?) in any organisation, but the meritocracy whilst attractive to the young and ambitious, will turn and bite them big time when they are less young and redundancy time beckons.(and God forbid, in the bad books of management) Its only a matter of time before one of the major LoCo's fail.
I have seen a 'job at risk' letter in my post in the past and I can tell you I have never been more glad to be in a seniority based airline. Even though I was in the bottom 30 of the list. This comes down to self preservation not selfishness. If, as is happening at a UK airline at this time, you have the 'base is closed, you're all sacked' scenario, it doesn't matter how hot a pilot you are, you're still unemployed.
Beware of what you wish for, as you may be granted it.
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I'm amazed nobody has mentioned that LIFO (in the UK and Europe by who we are now ruled) is widely considered amongst the legal fraternity to be highly suspect in terms of its legality because of the age regs. The argument goes that if you are last in you will on average be younger and hence getting rid of those last in is age discrimination. The same applies if you have more female pilots employed relatively recently, only now it is sex discrimination. The same goes for allocating places on a seniority list by date of birth when pilots join on the same day - this definitely would be direct age discrimination in the UK and some airlines have moved to "names out of a hat" as a result, as even hours/experience can also be considered to be indirect age discrimination.
For this reason many UK airlines are attempting to pre-empt a legal challenge by agreeing redundancy matrices that are based on more than just date of joining. They variously include disciplinary "points", training qualifications, etc. They have yet to be tested in court in an airline context but Rolls Royce vs Unite was the catalyst for these changes.
For this reason many UK airlines are attempting to pre-empt a legal challenge by agreeing redundancy matrices that are based on more than just date of joining. They variously include disciplinary "points", training qualifications, etc. They have yet to be tested in court in an airline context but Rolls Royce vs Unite was the catalyst for these changes.
Nemo Me Impune Lacessit
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"They variously include disciplinary "points", training qualifications,"
Points, either plus or minus are very subjective and I'd be surprised if it stood the test of the courts, training qualifications usually puts a person into management and therefore on a different list to the line pilots. Whether the courts like it or not LIFO is the only fair way to go.
Points, either plus or minus are very subjective and I'd be surprised if it stood the test of the courts, training qualifications usually puts a person into management and therefore on a different list to the line pilots. Whether the courts like it or not LIFO is the only fair way to go.
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This is the trouble. Merit systems, especially for redundancies, are subject to management perceptions of employees, which can be inaccurate, never mind subject to wilful cronyism and nepotism - I saw so many FOs in one loco company working days off doing admin tasks to curry favour promotion that it made my stomach turn. I completely accept those points from the upholders of seniority.
However, since the worst case of redundancies was brought up, and how LILO would be fairest, let me counter it by asking how it's fairer that a senior Captain with an old and healthy final salary pension and kids who have long since flown the nest and a large house with no mortgage is more deserving than a younger one with a crap modern pension, hefty mortgage and a young family depending on him/her?
Seniority is fundamentally wrong. It is institutionalised corruption and bullying. Merit based systems are theoretically fairer, but the real problem is getting them to be objective and not subjective. As raised by others, TREs can be highly subjective on LPCs and line checks, and managers even more so in their reports and files. This leaves the most professional of pilots, who do the right things for the right reasons contrary to the company's wishes, very exposed to abuse. So, the question becomes "how do we create an assessment system which is high in integrity?"
However, since the worst case of redundancies was brought up, and how LILO would be fairest, let me counter it by asking how it's fairer that a senior Captain with an old and healthy final salary pension and kids who have long since flown the nest and a large house with no mortgage is more deserving than a younger one with a crap modern pension, hefty mortgage and a young family depending on him/her?
Seniority is fundamentally wrong. It is institutionalised corruption and bullying. Merit based systems are theoretically fairer, but the real problem is getting them to be objective and not subjective. As raised by others, TREs can be highly subjective on LPCs and line checks, and managers even more so in their reports and files. This leaves the most professional of pilots, who do the right things for the right reasons contrary to the company's wishes, very exposed to abuse. So, the question becomes "how do we create an assessment system which is high in integrity?"
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Parabellum, in case you hadn't noticed, the Courts and the precedents they set (usually in Europe these days) interpret and in effect mould the laws all companies must abide by. Redundancy matrices examined by UK ETs regularly scrutinise and approve points awarded for various criteria, some of which may well be potentially subjective, but a range of different criteria is thought to protect against any such subjectivity.
Pure seniority would be likely to be deemed illegal in the UK according to leading Counsel. This is because it is indirect age discrimination - the more time you have been in the company, the older you are likely to be, on average. LIFO basically discriminates against younger pilots.
What makes airlines so special that that they feel they need a system different from every other company in the UK is the question the judge would be asking.
Tricky one ... !
Pure seniority would be likely to be deemed illegal in the UK according to leading Counsel. This is because it is indirect age discrimination - the more time you have been in the company, the older you are likely to be, on average. LIFO basically discriminates against younger pilots.
What makes airlines so special that that they feel they need a system different from every other company in the UK is the question the judge would be asking.
Tricky one ... !
Last edited by Rushed Approach; 30th Nov 2013 at 16:28.
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"LIFO basically discriminates against younger pilots."
I think you would be hard pressed to find any system that is not, in some way, discriminatory.
For a meritocracy system to work that enables pilots to move from one company to another without loss etc. it would need the agreement of all pilots world wide, good luck in getting that!
I think you would be hard pressed to find any system that is not, in some way, discriminatory.
For a meritocracy system to work that enables pilots to move from one company to another without loss etc. it would need the agreement of all pilots world wide, good luck in getting that!
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Don't think so. At least not in the rest of Europe. Seniority is quite often by law the replacement for age in the determination process for promotions. And even age in itself is not always discriminatory but required by law as one of several points.
For example, if a company has to fire workers over here they have to do a selection whom to let go based on seniority, age, number persons that are living off that income and any handicap of the employee. How those four points are weighed is a thing that has to be negotiated between working council and company, but all have to be taken into account. Age doesn't always have to be a positive thing either, as those old enough to be close to retirement age can be let go first. Quite interesting too, as only workers that can do each others job without any additional training can be considered in one list there needs to be a separate list for captains and first officers. Getting that upgrade is not always the best thing in terms of job security.
Even for vacation days it is legal that older employees (above an age of 55) do get more days vacation per year as they do need longer recovery periods.
For example, if a company has to fire workers over here they have to do a selection whom to let go based on seniority, age, number persons that are living off that income and any handicap of the employee. How those four points are weighed is a thing that has to be negotiated between working council and company, but all have to be taken into account. Age doesn't always have to be a positive thing either, as those old enough to be close to retirement age can be let go first. Quite interesting too, as only workers that can do each others job without any additional training can be considered in one list there needs to be a separate list for captains and first officers. Getting that upgrade is not always the best thing in terms of job security.
Even for vacation days it is legal that older employees (above an age of 55) do get more days vacation per year as they do need longer recovery periods.
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Thanx for the help..but....
Hi
It is interesting to see that we don't want to include a specific air carrier to this thread?
Are we concerned about retaliation?
I am asking if all can provide more details...
I am trying to make real changes..
Generalized opinions aren't helping...
It would be most helpful if an Air Carriers Seniority structure was spelled out in more detail, so I can start the ball rolling on making (at least) one carrier more accountable to the Pilot group..
It is interesting to see that we don't want to include a specific air carrier to this thread?
Are we concerned about retaliation?
I am asking if all can provide more details...
I am trying to make real changes..
Generalized opinions aren't helping...
It would be most helpful if an Air Carriers Seniority structure was spelled out in more detail, so I can start the ball rolling on making (at least) one carrier more accountable to the Pilot group..
Cfh, my post #12 was an actual system in an actual airline. That airline no longer exists, though not due to the seniority system!
My post #31 offers a hypothetical but probable alternative if you don't press your case.
If you go to www.afap.org.au it will lead you to various pilot awards made under Australian legislation. Just how applicable any of this would be in Canadian law, dunno, but it might be useful background.
I wish you luck in your endeavours. Nil bastado carborundum.
My post #31 offers a hypothetical but probable alternative if you don't press your case.
If you go to www.afap.org.au it will lead you to various pilot awards made under Australian legislation. Just how applicable any of this would be in Canadian law, dunno, but it might be useful background.
I wish you luck in your endeavours. Nil bastado carborundum.