BA?
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 204
Likes: 13
From: UK
Hopefully the plight of the bottom of the seniority list doing weekend work ad infinitum is about to change with the recent Bid Line tweaks being proposed. It will still be rubbish at the bottom, just not so rubbish!
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 848
Likes: 0
From: Courchevel
Even at the arse end of the seniority list you get a lot of days off compared to other UK operators and a roster bidding system that's fairly involved to get the hang of but second to none. Let's face it, the pilot profession has been on the slide for a long time now and there'll be hard times faced by us all in the near future.
Joined: Apr 2010
Aviation Qualifications: ATPL
Posts: 400
Likes: 17
From: Utopia
Nelson15 wrote: No cadet has remortgaged their parent's house to fund training. That was the whole idea in the first place.
from FPP website:
This is where the Future Pilot Programme really comes into its own. We have structured the programme so that APL will sponsor your flight training, jet orientation course and type rating. Obviously this represents a significant investment by APL and you will therefore be required to deposit a security bond of £84,000 with them. Because this is a sponsored scheme, this entire £84,000 security bond will be repaid to you, tax-free, if you successfully complete all training, and join British Airways as a first officer. The security bond is repaid in equal monthly instalments over your first seven years of employment, all in addition to your remuneration package.
There are a number of ways you can raise the funds to deposit this security bond, for example from your own finances, borrowing from family, or securing a loan. If you’re not in a position to secure an asset-based loan then you could be eligible for our British Airways guaranteed loan scheme. If this is the case, our partner bank will run a thorough check of your credit history. Should this come back clear and you pass the Future Pilot Programme selection process, British Airways could act as your loan guarantor. You will then be able to borrow the money from our partner bank in order to deposit the required security bond with APL. On any loan there is obviously a percentage of interest charged by the lender, but the British Airways guaranteed loan scheme specifically offers a 24-month holiday period before any loan repayments commence. It should be noted however, that it might be cheaper to secure an asset-based loan either through our partner bank or another lender.
Care to comment?
from FPP website:
This is where the Future Pilot Programme really comes into its own. We have structured the programme so that APL will sponsor your flight training, jet orientation course and type rating. Obviously this represents a significant investment by APL and you will therefore be required to deposit a security bond of £84,000 with them. Because this is a sponsored scheme, this entire £84,000 security bond will be repaid to you, tax-free, if you successfully complete all training, and join British Airways as a first officer. The security bond is repaid in equal monthly instalments over your first seven years of employment, all in addition to your remuneration package.
There are a number of ways you can raise the funds to deposit this security bond, for example from your own finances, borrowing from family, or securing a loan. If you’re not in a position to secure an asset-based loan then you could be eligible for our British Airways guaranteed loan scheme. If this is the case, our partner bank will run a thorough check of your credit history. Should this come back clear and you pass the Future Pilot Programme selection process, British Airways could act as your loan guarantor. You will then be able to borrow the money from our partner bank in order to deposit the required security bond with APL. On any loan there is obviously a percentage of interest charged by the lender, but the British Airways guaranteed loan scheme specifically offers a 24-month holiday period before any loan repayments commence. It should be noted however, that it might be cheaper to secure an asset-based loan either through our partner bank or another lender.
Care to comment?
Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 143
Likes: 0
From: Gran Bretaña
737Jockey, with regard to the FPP, I suppose it would be fairer to state that there is no 'necessity' to remortgage the parents (or your own) house to fund the training. The option to remortgage a property is of course there if you can thereby secure a better deal on the finance, but BA have offered to guarantee the loan should you require one and want assistance. Naturally, you'd be at an advantage if you were quite wealthy, could pay the bond without the need for a loan, and would therefore avoid any interest attached to repayments. No idea what ratio of cadets requiring loans have used the BA guarantee vs a property secured loan, though.
On another note, there's also the benefit of the bond repayments being made tax free, rather than having to take it out of wages which had already been taxed.
Is anyone else offering such a system?
On another note, there's also the benefit of the bond repayments being made tax free, rather than having to take it out of wages which had already been taxed.
Is anyone else offering such a system?
Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 143
Likes: 0
From: Gran Bretaña
Beats me. They should probably start with permanent contracts from the outset and work upwards from there. 
Edited to add, in the balance of fairness...there are worse deals out there, although even those are few and far between. Not exactly a lot of cadet deals full stop! Still, can fully understand the "race to the bottom" sentiments. I've watched my previous sector (cultural heritage) do precisely the same thing with the increasingly huge prevalence of zero hour contracts and complete degradation of T&Cs. It's worse there than in any other area I've come across.
Edited to add, in the balance of fairness...there are worse deals out there, although even those are few and far between. Not exactly a lot of cadet deals full stop! Still, can fully understand the "race to the bottom" sentiments. I've watched my previous sector (cultural heritage) do precisely the same thing with the increasingly huge prevalence of zero hour contracts and complete degradation of T&Cs. It's worse there than in any other area I've come across.
Last edited by MaydayMaydayMayday; 3rd October 2013 at 00:20.
Joined: Apr 2013
Posts: 20
Likes: 0
From: Glasgow
This sort of thing is happening in all industries. Largely brought on by over taxation and EU over regulation. It has pretty much destroyed my job prospects in what I do. And while I could be bitter, I'm not, times move on. I'm hardly likely to starve in western society but I do regret I don't have the wedge I used to. The price of progress I guess. 
Thread Starter
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 343
Likes: 0
From: Here
The banksters set a precedent in 2008, now other industries are in alignment. There are only two classes now, the worker class and the management class. The worker class is being slowly gutted so that the greedy lot at the top can pay their bonuses!
Anyway from what I understand in mid October there are the results of an annual conversion bid process which flags up any short fall in numbers, will there be a requirement for anyone I wonder? I would say most likely not, that would be far too convenient!
Anyway from what I understand in mid October there are the results of an annual conversion bid process which flags up any short fall in numbers, will there be a requirement for anyone I wonder? I would say most likely not, that would be far too convenient!
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 166
Likes: 0
From: Monaco
BA is not a great job anymore for a DEP. There is a long list of reasons why BA has dropped down the world order of great jobs. Many of the US majors have better terms and pay. The Asian carriers are where the growth and increasing pay/terms can be had. After two hold pool swimming sessions I do not think I would ever consider BA again. For the experienced several thousand hour Jet F/O there is better pay to be had elsewhere. Sure, the lads & lasses at BA will mention what a great working environment it is - but at the bottom of a long seniority list with the constant threat of Ryanair/Vueling/Easy and the middle eastern carriers ? For those with rose-tinted glass I want to retire with enough of a pension so I don't have to work in B&Q when I'm 70. After paying off the flying training, the mortgage and possibly at least one wife; then its worth considering working outside of the UK. High Euro taxation is here for the long term and so is the @rap pay.
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 390
Likes: 0
From: London
AndyPandy068
This sort of thing is happening in all industries. Largely brought on by over taxation and EU over regulation
Err no, it's called supply and demand. Free market economy. Capitalism. Regulation is what is needed. Starting with civil aviation regulators. Put an end to pay to fly. Put an end to tax dodging contracts. Put an end to zero hour contracts.
I'm not seeing any money "trickling down" from my management board into my pockets...
This sort of thing is happening in all industries. Largely brought on by over taxation and EU over regulation
I'm not seeing any money "trickling down" from my management board into my pockets...
Joined: Jun 2010
Posts: 245
Likes: 1
From: UK
Yes, but the regulators are also coining it through reduced requirements for licensing and unwillingness to condemn ptf, zero hours contracts for newbies as you mentioned. Win win situation for caa's and airlines. The fees are extortionate and the volume of applicants on the up. A nice revenue stream for the caa and they can't even answer a question on the phone regarding something in the cap which they wrote in the first place.
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 390
Likes: 0
From: London
Maybe I didn't get my point across very well, because that's basically what I am saying. Regulators should be doing their job properly and stop what is currently tolerated. In fact you'd struggle to call them regulators, more like rubber-stampers.
And couldn't agree more on their "helpfulness" on the phone
And couldn't agree more on their "helpfulness" on the phone
Thread Starter
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 343
Likes: 0
From: Here
Call regarding? Does anyone know how the fleet bidding thing went? Apparently this will determine if any DEP's are required next year.
Last edited by Threethirty; 16th October 2013 at 23:32.
Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 6,729
Likes: 104
From: The Winchester
I understand 
BA have suddenly realised they are in some need, fairly quickly, of a small number of type rated pilots at a certain airport south of London.
Phone calls have indeed been made.
BA have suddenly realised they are in some need, fairly quickly, of a small number of type rated pilots at a certain airport south of London.Phone calls have indeed been made.
Last edited by wiggy; 17th October 2013 at 10:39.
