are 3000 jet hours not enough for interview?
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I'm sorry I'm a little confused. Can we clarify what Pay to Fly actually is before we start laying into each other?
The fantastic offer which I declined was a 70% contract for which the 100% salary was £45,182 70% of which was £31,627 which was going to be paid over 12 months so £2635.58 per month. All sounding not too bad so far?
So I was to work for 8.4 months and get paid £2635.58 per month for 12. But they assured me that almost all 70% guys got picked up to 100% contracts on completion of the first 9 months but you don't get the £7906.75 back which they owe you for the time you should now be off. Additionally I was to pay for my type rating at £25,000 and be bonded for the line training. They generously offered a 30% reduction in my type rating costs because I was on a 70% contract.
So, and please feel free to jump in here and explain why I'm wrong, by my reckoning I was getting paid £23,720 for nine months work and was paying them £7906.75 + £17,500 = £25,406.75
Overall then that was a net payment from me to them of £1686.75 none of which was tax deductible which makes the sums much worse from my viewpoint.
This was not considered a pay to fly scheme, how exactly? I simply cannot afford to keep a family at that rate and hence didn't take the job. However a lot of guys I know did.
Am I a little jealous that I was not in the financial position to take the job? Well yes a bit.
Do I think that the aviation industry is a better place for this sort of thing? Not really.
You can only do your best and if that isn't good enough then perhaps you need to move on. Perhaps it's time I moved on.
The fantastic offer which I declined was a 70% contract for which the 100% salary was £45,182 70% of which was £31,627 which was going to be paid over 12 months so £2635.58 per month. All sounding not too bad so far?
So I was to work for 8.4 months and get paid £2635.58 per month for 12. But they assured me that almost all 70% guys got picked up to 100% contracts on completion of the first 9 months but you don't get the £7906.75 back which they owe you for the time you should now be off. Additionally I was to pay for my type rating at £25,000 and be bonded for the line training. They generously offered a 30% reduction in my type rating costs because I was on a 70% contract.
So, and please feel free to jump in here and explain why I'm wrong, by my reckoning I was getting paid £23,720 for nine months work and was paying them £7906.75 + £17,500 = £25,406.75
Overall then that was a net payment from me to them of £1686.75 none of which was tax deductible which makes the sums much worse from my viewpoint.
This was not considered a pay to fly scheme, how exactly? I simply cannot afford to keep a family at that rate and hence didn't take the job. However a lot of guys I know did.
Am I a little jealous that I was not in the financial position to take the job? Well yes a bit.
Do I think that the aviation industry is a better place for this sort of thing? Not really.
You can only do your best and if that isn't good enough then perhaps you need to move on. Perhaps it's time I moved on.
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Originally Posted by POS_INIT
P2F is so much more than paying to sit in an aircraft, you gain an even deeper understanding of your equipment, you get use to how an airline works and what qualitys you need to posses, your learn so much!! its invaluable experince.
Originally Posted by POS_INIT
no one should be left behind.
The sad truth is - not everyone who is finanically able to fund CPL is jet airliner material... CPL and IR pass standards are set relatively low - they are design to test if a pilot is safe, not if one has the ability to progress further down route.
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No jobs then blame P2F pilots cos daddy paid for their jobs. You paid for your Flight school didn't ya, didnt you just took an opportunity from another kid who couldnt pay for cpl? If only theres no self sponsored flying school, there be less pilots and all sponsored by the airline, TnCs would be much better, stop blaming mate and kerp on trying.
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P2F is one way to go and such guys shouldn't be judged for doing it. It is a difficult industry to brake into let's face it. At the end of the day, the men are separated from the boys at the sim ride at the interview. There P2F doesn't count as all majors don't allow P2F anyway. So guys should forget about it and relax a little. We all had to pay for type ratings at some point, just some guys take it a little further - maybe cause they struggle to fly well......just kidding.
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Hunter86 - complete 
The men aren't separated from the boys in the sim, not when they're paying for the seat, that's precisely the problem. It's unsafe. It will all come to a head when there's a big smoking hole in the ground and a public outcry that we let this industry deteriorate to this level.
I've never paid for an interview, cv, sim, type rating etc. Anyone who has or does is a fool and a danger to himself, his passengers, the industry, and my career!
Back in your box..
As an aside, I'm earning a whisker over 20,000 USD per month as an F/O on a wide body, and I put that down in part to the fact that I DID NOT SELL OUT like all the newbies coming into the industry now.
Do you really think that the P2F lot can ever dream of achieving these sort of earnings? Not when they're sending a clear message to the airline industry.... bloody fools.
The men aren't separated from the boys in the sim, not when they're paying for the seat, that's precisely the problem. It's unsafe. It will all come to a head when there's a big smoking hole in the ground and a public outcry that we let this industry deteriorate to this level.
I've never paid for an interview, cv, sim, type rating etc. Anyone who has or does is a fool and a danger to himself, his passengers, the industry, and my career!
Back in your box..
As an aside, I'm earning a whisker over 20,000 USD per month as an F/O on a wide body, and I put that down in part to the fact that I DID NOT SELL OUT like all the newbies coming into the industry now.
Do you really think that the P2F lot can ever dream of achieving these sort of earnings? Not when they're sending a clear message to the airline industry.... bloody fools.
Last edited by Flying Clog; 4th Sep 2013 at 00:48.
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I don't know why we are looking p2f in isolation. Commercial flying is taken up as a carreer not merely for adventure. If you have spent a small fortune in getting CPL and industry situation has changed, you need to put in some more to get a start anyone who can would do it. Ethics and morality can only be expected cannot be enforced. People with money always are at advantage. They live in better houses , eat better food get better health care. Lament is justified but it is a fact of life. I don't think anyone would give up flying because of principals.
Last edited by vilas; 4th Sep 2013 at 06:09.
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Originally Posted by Flying Cog
As an aside, I'm earning a whisker over 20,000 USD per month as an F/O on a wide body, and I put that down in part to the fact that I DID NOT SELL OUT like all the newbies coming into the industry now.
You may not agree with me, but salary isn't everything. For example, you get offered a large salary to work all the time straight to the limits (and sometimes beyond). Wouldn't that be considered as a sell out by somebody who earns 10% less, but has much more civilised T&Cs?
I will say that we as pilots should stop the P2F, but the highest burden lies with the SFI/TRIs and line training captains. If they say no to training people who are not being paid, surely then the P2F concept cannot exist?
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Hang on a minute FlyingStone.
1. Your theory about training captains checking these numpties is rubbish for a start. Pressure will be applied as and when necessary by the company, and checkers will be brought into line, or shifted.
2. I earn 20,000 usd a month (total package), pre tax, which is 16% in my neck of the woods. So, I'm walking away with about 17k usd a month (salary plus housing allowance/equity).
Pushing hours, t and c's? I work 12 days a month, 18 OFF, about 75-80 duty hour a month.
Guess where I live in SE Asia!
I'm not afraid to wave my willy around. More of us should. Maybe then these idiotic new joiners would realise what sort of package (!) they should be demanding.
In the meantime, stand by for some smoking holes in the ground...
SFO anyone?
Examine yourselves, and be ashamed. Idiots.
1. Your theory about training captains checking these numpties is rubbish for a start. Pressure will be applied as and when necessary by the company, and checkers will be brought into line, or shifted.
2. I earn 20,000 usd a month (total package), pre tax, which is 16% in my neck of the woods. So, I'm walking away with about 17k usd a month (salary plus housing allowance/equity).
Pushing hours, t and c's? I work 12 days a month, 18 OFF, about 75-80 duty hour a month.
Guess where I live in SE Asia!
I'm not afraid to wave my willy around. More of us should. Maybe then these idiotic new joiners would realise what sort of package (!) they should be demanding.
In the meantime, stand by for some smoking holes in the ground...
SFO anyone?
Examine yourselves, and be ashamed. Idiots.
Last edited by Flying Clog; 4th Sep 2013 at 13:43.
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Clam
You keep asking where all the P2F jobs are and that because there doesn't currently appear to be many of them that somehow they do not affect the industry.
You need to rewind a little, Ryanair have been making people pay €20,000 odd for ratings, basically buying a job, which then in turn has such low T&Cs that those people will pretty much do whatever they are told because they need a salary, check out the Ryanair threads, and I fear people in those situations are bringing about unsafe situations because they don't have the strength of character or job security to say NO when they feel things unsafe.
That's a direct result of P2F or buying a rating.
Also the CTC scheme was the same, buy a rating, but then no operator would take you with no time on type, the thinking was then, I'm already in for 20k, I might as well buy the 500 hours of line training otherwise the type rating is lost.
You say people are desperate for the jobs and they deserve a chance and shouldn't be criticised for paying, that's not how a job works, a job pays you and if that job requires training, the operator will train you, by all means bond the individual to protect that investment, but there is no defence for buying a rating or hours other than you want to buy an advantage, that's it pure and simple.
If no one did it, it would die out, but because of all the deluded reasons you convince yourself as good and relevant for doing P2F, it will never stop.
How many doctors or lawyers or dentists pay for a position with a company after they have qualified, why are pilots any different? Its simply because people want to leap frog others and are prepared to pay to do so.
It is nothing short of a disgrace and P2F has destroyed T&Cs and changed operators opinions and business models of what a pilot is, it used to be someone who primarily flew the plane, now they are considered firstly as a way for the operator to make money from.
Pat yourself on the back for that!
You keep asking where all the P2F jobs are and that because there doesn't currently appear to be many of them that somehow they do not affect the industry.
You need to rewind a little, Ryanair have been making people pay €20,000 odd for ratings, basically buying a job, which then in turn has such low T&Cs that those people will pretty much do whatever they are told because they need a salary, check out the Ryanair threads, and I fear people in those situations are bringing about unsafe situations because they don't have the strength of character or job security to say NO when they feel things unsafe.
That's a direct result of P2F or buying a rating.
Also the CTC scheme was the same, buy a rating, but then no operator would take you with no time on type, the thinking was then, I'm already in for 20k, I might as well buy the 500 hours of line training otherwise the type rating is lost.
You say people are desperate for the jobs and they deserve a chance and shouldn't be criticised for paying, that's not how a job works, a job pays you and if that job requires training, the operator will train you, by all means bond the individual to protect that investment, but there is no defence for buying a rating or hours other than you want to buy an advantage, that's it pure and simple.
If no one did it, it would die out, but because of all the deluded reasons you convince yourself as good and relevant for doing P2F, it will never stop.
How many doctors or lawyers or dentists pay for a position with a company after they have qualified, why are pilots any different? Its simply because people want to leap frog others and are prepared to pay to do so.
It is nothing short of a disgrace and P2F has destroyed T&Cs and changed operators opinions and business models of what a pilot is, it used to be someone who primarily flew the plane, now they are considered firstly as a way for the operator to make money from.
Pat yourself on the back for that!
Last edited by south coast; 4th Sep 2013 at 18:05.
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Want to come back to Europe
Hello guys,
I am an expat in asia, have just about 2000h on a320 and would like to come back to europe.
Could be surprising I know, but, to be honest, I don't think the expat life is for me now.
The thing is, I know what I will lose, but I don't know what I will find. Anyway, even right now, my contract is a pilot contractor, so, not so stable neither.
My question could appear naive, but I have been wondering how is the market according to that experience ? (I have 3000h total, as 2000h on jet, as f/o)
I know it's tough in Eu, but actually I never applied since that, so I have no idea about the market with an experience now.
Apparently this topic does not seem optimistic...but, im still asking.
The thing is I feel not so happy now.
What about Easy jet for exemple ? Or SFI, is SFI in demand ? Of I don't seek only on 320 actually, Im opened for others position (corporate etc) as long as I could find something. I am in the point now that I seek more a lifestyle than a planestyle.
I am an expat in asia, have just about 2000h on a320 and would like to come back to europe.
Could be surprising I know, but, to be honest, I don't think the expat life is for me now.
The thing is, I know what I will lose, but I don't know what I will find. Anyway, even right now, my contract is a pilot contractor, so, not so stable neither.
My question could appear naive, but I have been wondering how is the market according to that experience ? (I have 3000h total, as 2000h on jet, as f/o)
I know it's tough in Eu, but actually I never applied since that, so I have no idea about the market with an experience now.
Apparently this topic does not seem optimistic...but, im still asking.
The thing is I feel not so happy now.
What about Easy jet for exemple ? Or SFI, is SFI in demand ? Of I don't seek only on 320 actually, Im opened for others position (corporate etc) as long as I could find something. I am in the point now that I seek more a lifestyle than a planestyle.
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What about Easy jet for exemple ? Or SFI, is SFI in demand ? Of I don't seek only on 320 actually, Im opened for others position (corporate etc) as long as I could find something.
Corporate operators generally want hours on type these days, just look around. There are few exceptions. We are the last bastion of civilisation, where most (not all) don't tolerate P2F pilots. Rightly so. Ex airline guys also meet some flack, as many would jump back to the airlines at the first chance. Operators like loyalty and usually reward it handsomely. They prefer to employ other corporate pilots with proven track records.
Don't think corporate is easy either, we can be away from base for a heck of a long time, generally flying with the same guys.
Good luck either way,
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Originally Posted by clamchowder
100% agree with the question bank being abolished. Because some use it, all have to use it because it isn't fair. The examining body then makes the questions harder because people are getting such high % which means the questions are so hard they can't be done without using the question bank because there isn't enough time to revise all the subjects in 6 months. Cyclic idiocy.
I think that this fATPL thing is ridiculous. You should first pass IFR knowledge and CPL knowledge test, then fly for several hundred hours before being allowed to take the ATPL knowledge test.
You shouldn't be allowed to touch the control of a CS25 jet without several hundreds hours of IFR flying experience.
Etc.
