Go Back  PPRuNe Forums > Flight Deck Forums > Terms and Endearment
Reload this Page >

pimping the pilot profession

Terms and Endearment The forum the bean counters hoped would never happen. Your news on pay, rostering, allowances, extras and negotiations where you work - scheduled, charter or contract.

pimping the pilot profession

Old 11th Jan 2013, 18:05
  #1 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Europa
Posts: 611
Thumbs down pimping the pilot profession

Arrived in today's inbox - warning, reading this may cause norovirus !!!!!

"Dear all ,

Itís New Year and 2012 has been such an amazing and fantastic year for me as well as all my readers in XXXXX especially those of you who got a job as a Pilot and Cabin crew. Seeing some of you flying today are the greatest satisfaction I had and worth every bit of my effort setting up XXXXX to help you all.

I hope you manage to achieve whatever goals you set last year ( I know I did ) and achieve more this year with all your new resolution for 2013.

This is my first post for the year and I am excited to share with you especially on upcoming Pilot/Cabin crew jobs. Last year we manage to put hundreds of Pilot into the cockpit flying in Indonesia. Special thanks to Mr.X ( Director of Y) and the rest of the team in Y who have been working very hard helping people to make their dream come true.

We use to hire pilots in Malaysia and Indonesia but have expanded throughout the world namely India, Dubai, Paris and Amsterdam.

As usual, since this is the new year, a lot of you asked me whether should you invest money on a type rating, pilot Jobs outlook for 2013 and beyond and any slots or vacancies coming up.
I will start with the pilot industry. Bear in mind that this is solely base on my own opinion since I hire them and know first hand info on whats happening behind the scenes.

Pay to fly will be the de facto method use by airlines especially ďsome ď low cost carriers to hire new pilots. It use to be only paying for the type rating but certain airlines are asking you to pay right from zero hours. Jetstar and Tiger airways are some of the airline who practise that. You can see the info here Jetstar Cadet Pilot and Cadet Pilot - Tiger Airways.

I know everyone hate it but sadly, that is how the industry will be and is here to stay. But before you complain, you must understand the reason behind it. Oil prices are soaring and as I am typing this, many airlines especially the European region are closing down or going bankrupt.

Airlines will find whatever ways to cut cost and asking pilots to pay is one of them. The second reason is to protect themselves. In Indonesia for example, it use to be free and their rating paid for but a lot of expat abuse the system. Once they get the rating and hours, they just ran away to their home country. We all know that ratings are not cheap and always remember that an airline is to make money, not a free school offering you scholarship and lose money in the end.

So before you complain, put yourself in the airlineís shoe and imagine yourself as the boss. However the good news is if you are a local citizen, normally you will still be sponsored though it is changing now. For example, malindo has been reported in the news asking all new hired pilots to pay for their rating and line training even though they are locals. You can read about it here .

In the eyes of the airline, itís a win win situation. They get to save cost and you get to gain experience.

A lot of people accuse that pay to fly pilots are rich kids who are useless and canít fly. In my personal opinion, I do not think that is the case. There are simply not enough slots for jobless pilot and obviously not everyone can be invited. I know because at the moment I have 4000+ pilots in my database and some are really good pilots, just that they never have the chance to be invited. Like some of you mention to me, ďcertainĒ sponsored students got in because of their connection and race and not base on their capability.

One point I want to make is, I am not justifying pay to fly and I hate it too. After all, who doesnít want free lunch? But this is how the industry is now and no point complaining on things which is beyond our control and focus on things which are within our control that I am sure all of you will agree.

Letís move on to aircraft rating. Majority of you ask me whether is it better to take a B737 or A320 rating. I would say go for whatever aircraft that you like to fly ( unless there is a job guaranteed after you obtain the rating ). If you prefer airbus you take airbus and vice versa. As for me, it doesnít matter what aircraft type so long I get to fly and I am lucky to be flying a boeing jet today. Both rating are marketable especially in Indonesia since we have so many B737 and A320 operators here.

Now letís go to the important topic of pilot job outlook for 2013 and beyond as that is the biggest headache for the entire thousands of jobless pilot out there. We all read that there is a pilot shortage and there is a need for hundreds of thousands of pilot in the coming years. Honestly, I think all that is bullsh*t.

If journalists are not paid to write rosy stuff, who will enrol into flying school or TRTO to get rating? All their business will collapse. Like i have mention earlier, plenty of airlines are closing down especially in the European region and the market is flooded with experience pilots with thousands of hours. I am getting so many resume from experience pilot and even they themselves are finding a hard time to get a job.

The latest casualties are from Singapore Airlines. You can read the news here. Captain are asked to take unpaid ( read no salary) leave and if a major airline like Singapore Airline, one of the most biggest and profitable airline in the world can do this, you have an idea how the smaller ones will survive in this tough industry.

That is why there is the pay to fly thing going on, is either they save cost and get some pilots flying, or close down and no pilot jobs at all.

They mention that airlines are ordering many aircraft and new planes hence the need for extra pilots, of course they will be extra slots but with so many experience pilot flooding the pilot, where are the jobs for freshies? Plus like the case of Malaysian Airlines, yes they are getting many new planes but they are also retiring many old plane and have excess pilots now. Even then their excess pilots are being send to fly in Indonesia as secondment. Another example is Silk Air which intends to replace all their A320 with B737.

Also bear in mind that the new orders of hundred of aircraft is not coming in overnight and it may take few years before they can be delivered.

The good news is, we have upcoming slots for CPL/low hour and also those rated with zero hours on type. But the number of slots is getting smaller and smaller as in the last few years, so many foreign pilots fill up all the vacancies in Indonesia. It use to be a common thing to fly to Indonesia and go directly to the airline office to get a job. Now at this point of time, that is not possible anymore and wasting your time and money unless you have connection or know someone inside.

But the amount of jobless pilots keep increase daily with them graduating almost every month from flying school around the world. I still remember it takes me few weeks to get a recruitment event to be filled up last time, today I only need few hours before we are fully booked.

I know what I am saying above is not really a good piece of news especially for the start of the year since everyone love to hear rosy and beautiful painted story that there are tons of job around. I am not saying there are none, just that it is limited and it is becoming a challenge to get your first airline job especially for freshies. Some says that it is important to stay positive which is true but I suggest you want to add a thing called ďrealityĒ. Staying positive and being reality is too different thing. That is exactly why so many invest a lot of money in their CPL and rating and end up jobless. Remember, nobody put a gun in your head and you can only blame yourself for not doing your research and being ignorant.

I am not saying donít do it since like myself, no matter whether the industry is good or not I will still chose to become a pilot as I canít imagine myself doing any other jobs. Itís a challenge and I waited 2 years after flying school before I got my first job. So if I can do it, so can you. In fact as all of you know by now, I am giving people the opportunity to become a pilot , something which I have never imagine I will do so since I was once in your shoe, a jobless pilot knocking doors around the world looking for opportunity. I am not blowing my horn here but today I have to politely decline offers and seriously life can turn out to be awesome when you least expect it ! ( provided you have a positive mindset and take action ).

What I wrote above may not please some of you, after all we canít please everyone right?. Look you can complain and procrastinate which in my dictionary, that is wasting time and a pilot job can never drop down from the sky or you can chose to take action under whatever circumstances and make the best out of it. Honestly, if I can, I will invite everyone ( 4000+ in my database ) and hope all of you become a pilot. But you and I know that is not possible as there are limited slots. Their first priority is always their own local citizens first. Just like Malindo, their newly recruited pilots must all be 100% Malaysian. Thatís why the best way is to try your home country airline first if that is possible.

For those of you who are considering taking up piloting as a career, make sure you have done your research and have all the financials in place. Itís an awesome career and worth every effort to be where I am today. Also, please consider taking up a university degree before you embark your career as a pilot. I spend 4 years in university before I fly and it is important to use your degree as a backup in case ( touch wood ) your pilot career fail or ďyetĒ to take off !

With that said, I want to take this opportunity to wish you a wonderful year for your success in 2013.

Best Regards,"

Last edited by angelorange; 11th Jan 2013 at 18:08.
angelorange is offline  
Old 11th Jan 2013, 18:44
  #2 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: uk
Posts: 51
Hmmmmm

or Grrrrrrh!

Seems Eagle Jet still advertises similar on PPRuNe !
greenedgejet is offline  
Old 11th Jan 2013, 21:10
  #3 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Hampshire physically; Perthshire and Pembrokeshire mentally.
Posts: 1,611
I think that would make any self-respecting, intelligent young person run a mile.
Wingswinger is offline  
Old 12th Jan 2013, 01:02
  #4 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: In a far better place
Posts: 2,480
The way I see it is that Eagle and Falcon are the pimps. Lion air is the prostitute, and the budding pilot is the John, looking for that instant gratification.

The John pays the pimp so they cexplore the dream, who in turn gives the prostitute their share of the action for services rendered.

After the deed is done the John is empty, the pimp is richer, and the prostitute has a line of clients waiting for their turn in the saddle.

You all see a parallel here?

Last edited by captjns; 12th Jan 2013 at 01:08.
captjns is offline  
Old 13th Jan 2013, 01:29
  #5 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Gangsters Paradise
Posts: 8
What kind of self-centred muppet would send this to someone?!

Last edited by Raduga-Burya; 13th Jan 2013 at 01:31.
Raduga-Burya is offline  
Old 13th Jan 2013, 02:07
  #6 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Vietnam
Posts: 1,246
A muppet that made a lot of money last year by helping to sell the RHS of a turbo prop or jet to stupid western kids willing to pay 30-50K for type and line training to then work for 2k a month for four years.
pilotchute is offline  
Old 14th Jan 2013, 22:26
  #7 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Europe
Posts: 625
Lowering the bar

......and do not forget the Pilots who made it up to 55 or 60 Years in a legacy carrier, now with the pension on the account they are happy to take another 9000 USD as money for the toys when flying a B747 or B777.
B737NG is offline  
Old 14th Jan 2013, 23:48
  #8 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: In a far better place
Posts: 2,480
Pilotchute... The majority of those paying to play at the likes of Lion Air are from India. Very few from the West. Spoiled brats taking Mummy and Daddy's money.

B737NG... It's worse than that. Every Boeing pilot joining Ethiopian does so on $60 USD per Diem until all training has been completed. These miscreants are flying revenue trips at a pay rate of $60 USD. There is nothing more shameful or discrediting than this

Last edited by captjns; 14th Jan 2013 at 23:49.
captjns is offline  
Old 15th Jan 2013, 02:54
  #9 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Vietnam
Posts: 1,246
Captjns,

This guy calling himself Flygosh is behind the email highlighted in the first post. Funny that Lion Air is the only one he doesn't source hopefuls for. He has his fingers in the pie for Merpati, Sri Wijaya, Citilink and Indonesia Air Transport.

Most of the Merpati intake were European as were the Citilink hopefuls. Sri Wijaya took on a few and the majority again were Westerners. There were some Singaporeans, Koreans and a couple of Malaysian mixed in also.

The majority weren't Indian at all.
pilotchute is offline  
Old 15th Jan 2013, 05:43
  #10 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: In a far better place
Posts: 2,480
I can only speak of Lion Air, as many of my colleagues from former carriers are LTCs, and the majority are clearly not from the "West". But the important point is that there are those willing to shell out $40 to $50 grand UDS for a pipe dream.

It will be interesting to see, in some 3 to 4 years when they've accumulated their hours if the likes of EK or Etihad will offer them a position considering their lineage of employment, as they were truly pay to play children of the magenta line. In addition working for carriers known to be black balled from the majority of the globe.
captjns is offline  
Old 15th Jan 2013, 05:55
  #11 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Boldly going where no split infinitive has gone before..
Posts: 4,276
It will be interesting to see, in some 3 to 4 years when they've accumulated their hours if the likes of EK or Etihad will offer them a position considering their lineage of employment, as they were truly pay to play children of the magenta line. In addition working for carriers known to be black balled from the majority of the globe.
Unfortunatley, I think the jury is in on that- Hours is hours and there are no barriers to P2P pilots applying. In fact, it could now be possible for a Pilots ENTIRE experience to be P2P hours, and make minimums for the ME carriers.

After that, it's ebtirerly up to how they do in the selection process.

I recently trained a guy who had P2P in a Turkish Airline, one year in a Charter outfit, and made it through EK selection.
Wizofoz is offline  
Old 15th Jan 2013, 05:56
  #12 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: phoenix, AZ, USA
Posts: 238
This business just gets more ridiculous by the day. How can you justify paying to go to work somewhere? Every type rating I have, in fact my ATP license was paid for by my employer. That's the cost of doing business. I have worked for startups with low pay but that changed as the airline grew. No one I have ever flown for expected me to pay for my training or pay to keep my job. If they had, I would have left in a heartbeat.

People, quit prostituting yourselves.

Last edited by cactusbusdrvr; 15th Jan 2013 at 05:56.
cactusbusdrvr is offline  
Old 15th Jan 2013, 06:58
  #13 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: UK
Posts: 415
Supply and demand. It's as simple as that.
Please explain why the businessmen in charge of the airlines would pay for something they don't have to. They pay landing fees because they have to. They pay for fuel because they have to. They don't pay for type ratings any more because they don't have to. It's not rocket science.
WHYEYEMAN is offline  
Old 15th Jan 2013, 07:19
  #14 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Correr es mi destino por no llevar papel
Posts: 1,385
Originally Posted by captjns
You all see a parallel here?
You forgot to mention STDs.

Originally Posted by WHYEYEMAN
Please explain why the businessmen in charge of the airlines would pay for something they don't have to.
Exactly. No businessman today expects to last forever so grab as much as you can is the order of the day. If it causes long-term headache to company, who cares. He won't be around anymore to deal with it.
Clandestino is offline  
Old 15th Jan 2013, 10:01
  #15 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Correr es mi destino por no llevar papel
Posts: 1,385
Originally Posted by contacted
Airlines want pilots at the right quality and lowest price.
A business model exists.
Exactly! Air India Express went all the way to ex-Yugoslavia to find the pilot that had just the right stuff because it made economical sense at the time.

Originally Posted by contacted
All part the same thing that is driving our Industry
Originally Posted by Gordon Gekko
The point is, ladies and gentleman, that greed, for lack of a better word, is good. Greed is right, greed works. Greed clarifies, cuts through, and captures the essence of the evolutionary spirit. Greed, in all of its forms; greed for life, for money, for love, knowledge has marked the upward surge of mankind.
Clandestino is offline  
Old 15th Jan 2013, 16:19
  #16 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Europa
Posts: 611
Greed is Guff!

How did hospitals start? Greed? Not originally - but now there are surgeons who will rip people off. However, the vast majority do their job very well and for reasonable pay - some even volunteer to help the poorest of the poor eg: ORBIS:ORBIS | Saving Sight, Blindness Prevention & Treatment, Help the Blind

How did schools and universities start? Greed? No -just because now a college education costs a heck of a lot of money doesn't mean the lecturers are greedy.

The biggest issue is Flight Safety and Lion Air have shown that buying lots of new aircraft does not solve the awful reputation they have with the FAA and EU.

Would you accept heart surgery from doctors who were paying to operate on you?
angelorange is offline  
Old 18th Jan 2013, 03:30
  #17 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Uk
Posts: 17
Would you be happy if your mechanic pay you to fix your car.?

Would u be happy if you can eat at any restaurant for free?


Etc.


I would....

Last edited by Feedmemore; 19th Jan 2013 at 09:01.
Feedmemore is offline  
Old 28th Jan 2013, 00:59
  #18 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: jakarta
Age: 35
Posts: 20
This letter comes from a guy that call himself Flygosh !! he forgot to mention about at least 50 pilots that payed upfront 27000 dollars to the agency he works for for a line training with Sriwijaya one year agÚ and nobody still started any line training yet !! Most of them back to their country claiming refound but..... surprice..... no money comeing back... just wait for line training !! crap over crap !! its dangerous scam.... stay away !!
737RIDE is offline  
Old 28th Jan 2013, 02:03
  #19 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: In a far better place
Posts: 2,480
Most of them back to their country claiming refound but..... surprice..... no money comeing back... just wait for line training !! crap over crap !! its dangerous scam.... stay away
Now how's that saying go? "If it's too good to be true....". Say bye bye to Mommy and Daddy's money.
captjns is offline  
Old 28th Jan 2013, 04:57
  #20 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Fragrant Harbour
Posts: 4,680
http://www.pprune.org/south-asia-far...-air-f-os.html
Dan Winterland is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us Archive Advertising Cookie Policy Privacy Statement Terms of Service

Copyright © 2018 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.