SENIORITY - The Seniority system in your airline
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Stupid analogy
Trossie--8th Jan 2013 16:51
What a stupid analogy...
Seriously?
IS this a European mentality?
How simplified, how simple this thought process is..
When someone is placed on a Seniority list, it takes years of experience, training and patience to move on as Captain, nothing ever happens overnight...
We wait our turn..based on performance...
If a candidate is not ready for an upgrade.his is not ready for an upgrade..
The Merit system, based on preferential treatment and some pilots spending too much time down on their knees for upgrades..is in my opinion pathetic...
Back stabbing, Conniving, Ruthless, Get er done, and Merit based is old school and belongs elsewhere...
What a stupid analogy...
Seriously?
IS this a European mentality?
How simplified, how simple this thought process is..
When someone is placed on a Seniority list, it takes years of experience, training and patience to move on as Captain, nothing ever happens overnight...
We wait our turn..based on performance...
If a candidate is not ready for an upgrade.his is not ready for an upgrade..
The Merit system, based on preferential treatment and some pilots spending too much time down on their knees for upgrades..is in my opinion pathetic...
Back stabbing, Conniving, Ruthless, Get er done, and Merit based is old school and belongs elsewhere...
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Carsonsflyinghigh, Why did you have to go all the way back to January? On your own thread as recently as 25th November you will find:
You guys who are hooked on 'seniority lists' seem to think that without it you have 'brown nosing' and back-stabbing. Well, airlines with 'seniority lists' are just as liable to 'brown nosing' and back-stabbing, just that on top of all that you have the tyranny of 'the list' dictating your entire life. When it comes to qualifying for a command upgrade, 'seniority list' systems require merit just as much as just about any other system. I don't think that you want to understand any of this this because you are so hooked on your antiquated 'seniority list' systems. The world is going to move on and leave all of you behind. And when your airline goes bust, don't cry when you have to brush aside all those years of experience and qualifications that you have already built up because you have to start again at the bottom of someone else's 'seniority list' below the cadet who joined the week before you, because that's the way that you wanted it to be. No other modern profession works on such a stupid system as 'seniority' for holding back experienced and qualified people.
All the discussion about 'seniority vs meritocracy' seems to revolve entirely around command upgrades. It appears very much that those getting their upgrades under the 'seniority' systems have to jump just as many grading and qualification hurdles (i.e. they need to merit their upgrade) as those in 'meritocracy' systems. So all the 'brown nosing' and unfair grading complaints that have been made are equally as possible under each system (you can be held back from an upgrade when your turn comes up under a seniority system by the same unfairness). So if you are concerned about unfair treatment then it is a risk under both systems.
But seniority based systems do not only regulate command upgrades, they strangle all sorts of other movement in airlines, such as base or fleet transfers, leave allocation, etc., etc.
Why is it right that if for example pilot A wants to transfer to XYZ fleet or base and has had an application in for it for over a year, yet two weeks before the vacancy that he/she has wanted becomes available, pilot B suddenly decides that he/she would like that fleet or base transfer and 'trumps' pilot A (who has really wanted that transfer for quite some time) solely because of their positions on a seniority list.
Likewise, why is it right that first officer C who is very well qualified and passes all the command criteria with very, very good marks but can't get an upgrade because things are moving a little slowly in that airline and has waited over a year since 'ticking all the boxes', then just as that much awaited command is almost there, first officer D who had joined with low hours and has just barely scraped through all the grades required finally manages the bare minimum hours for upgrade and 'trumps' first officer C solely because of their places on a seniority list.
Wouldn't a 'first-come-first-served' system be much fairer?
When pilot A puts in an application for that transfer to XYX fleet or base he/she goes on a waiting list. If pilot B decides a year later that he/she would like that same transfer he/she goes on that list behind everyone else who had already made their applications. When that vacancy becomes available then the pilot who applied first gets it first.
When first officer C 'ticks all the boxes' for a command upgrade, he/she goes on a waiting list and anyone who subsequently 'ticks the required boxes', such as first officer D (above), goes on that waiting list after first officer C. When a command vacancy is available first officer C, who has been qualified and waiting longest, gets that first opportunity.
(I cannot think of any other industry where a lower qualified person, like first officer D above with is 'only just good enough' grades and only just attained flying hours, gets promotion ahead of someone who is more able and better qualified simply because of their positions on some list.)
Why should a very competent and experienced captain whose airline has gone bust (due to something way out of his control, such as terrorist activity) be condemned to having to work as a first officer for the next decade or so simply because he is at the bottom of any seniority list in any other airline that he joins and is behind that cadet fresh out of flying school who joined the week before?
Seniority systems are simply a 'tyranny of the senior' and a tool of management to keep Ts & Cs down as pilots will be reluctant to leave to go elsewhere for a potentially better deal because they'll loose their precious place on that list (and possibly need to start on the bottom of someone else's list). It is amazing that such a modern industry (public air transport hasn't been around for a full century yet) is bedevilled by such archaic workplace practices.
And this is not a new problem: if you read Ernest K Gann's "Fate is the Hunter", which was first published closer to Bleriot's crossing of the Channel than to today, he refers to positions on a seniority list as "Those miserable numbers!".
The industry needs to be modernised and get rid of seniority lists. Fortunately it appears that some airlines are doing so.
But seniority based systems do not only regulate command upgrades, they strangle all sorts of other movement in airlines, such as base or fleet transfers, leave allocation, etc., etc.
Why is it right that if for example pilot A wants to transfer to XYZ fleet or base and has had an application in for it for over a year, yet two weeks before the vacancy that he/she has wanted becomes available, pilot B suddenly decides that he/she would like that fleet or base transfer and 'trumps' pilot A (who has really wanted that transfer for quite some time) solely because of their positions on a seniority list.
Likewise, why is it right that first officer C who is very well qualified and passes all the command criteria with very, very good marks but can't get an upgrade because things are moving a little slowly in that airline and has waited over a year since 'ticking all the boxes', then just as that much awaited command is almost there, first officer D who had joined with low hours and has just barely scraped through all the grades required finally manages the bare minimum hours for upgrade and 'trumps' first officer C solely because of their places on a seniority list.
Wouldn't a 'first-come-first-served' system be much fairer?
When pilot A puts in an application for that transfer to XYX fleet or base he/she goes on a waiting list. If pilot B decides a year later that he/she would like that same transfer he/she goes on that list behind everyone else who had already made their applications. When that vacancy becomes available then the pilot who applied first gets it first.
When first officer C 'ticks all the boxes' for a command upgrade, he/she goes on a waiting list and anyone who subsequently 'ticks the required boxes', such as first officer D (above), goes on that waiting list after first officer C. When a command vacancy is available first officer C, who has been qualified and waiting longest, gets that first opportunity.
(I cannot think of any other industry where a lower qualified person, like first officer D above with is 'only just good enough' grades and only just attained flying hours, gets promotion ahead of someone who is more able and better qualified simply because of their positions on some list.)
Why should a very competent and experienced captain whose airline has gone bust (due to something way out of his control, such as terrorist activity) be condemned to having to work as a first officer for the next decade or so simply because he is at the bottom of any seniority list in any other airline that he joins and is behind that cadet fresh out of flying school who joined the week before?
Seniority systems are simply a 'tyranny of the senior' and a tool of management to keep Ts & Cs down as pilots will be reluctant to leave to go elsewhere for a potentially better deal because they'll loose their precious place on that list (and possibly need to start on the bottom of someone else's list). It is amazing that such a modern industry (public air transport hasn't been around for a full century yet) is bedevilled by such archaic workplace practices.
And this is not a new problem: if you read Ernest K Gann's "Fate is the Hunter", which was first published closer to Bleriot's crossing of the Channel than to today, he refers to positions on a seniority list as "Those miserable numbers!".
The industry needs to be modernised and get rid of seniority lists. Fortunately it appears that some airlines are doing so.
I have worked for a couple of airlines where they had low time F/Os who were nominally more 'senior' to later entrants who had much more experience. Because there was always a minimum hours requirement for upgrade, the later entrants got the left seat - and hence a better pay packet - first. Enough and instant reward for prior experience, yes? Once that happened, they could never be bypassed as a Captain in that fleet by anyone who had missed out.
However, when it came to bidding for a home base, this was done purely on date of joining, so our Captain who had been promoted earlier could not suddenly decide that he wanted to be a F/O in a more desirable base or go to a lesser paid fleet in a more desirable location as Captain ahead of anyone who was nominally 'senior' and met the experience requirements for that fleet and had bid for that base. Seemed fair enough.
As for those Captains whose airlines go bust, to have any chance of DEC, it's best to find another airline where the average F/O experience is low. Now, if that is not in your home town, tough luck. And if your next benefactor/employer has enough F/Os about ready for command, stiff
old son, go to the back of the line and wait your turn.
Otherwise, go to China where your experience will get you both fame and fortune (cookies). No seniority at all there - for expats anyway.
However, when it came to bidding for a home base, this was done purely on date of joining, so our Captain who had been promoted earlier could not suddenly decide that he wanted to be a F/O in a more desirable base or go to a lesser paid fleet in a more desirable location as Captain ahead of anyone who was nominally 'senior' and met the experience requirements for that fleet and had bid for that base. Seemed fair enough.
As for those Captains whose airlines go bust, to have any chance of DEC, it's best to find another airline where the average F/O experience is low. Now, if that is not in your home town, tough luck. And if your next benefactor/employer has enough F/Os about ready for command, stiff
old son, go to the back of the line and wait your turn.Otherwise, go to China where your experience will get you both fame and fortune (cookies). No seniority at all there - for expats anyway.
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Mach E Avelli, your posts about the subject always come across as those of someone very near the top of their list in a very assured company like BA or similar. In other words, someone who has been very fortunate all the way from the early days of their career to make good progress in a very good environment who has never had to face redundancy or needed to escape a bad employer while supporting more than just themself. Good for you on that score, but maybe you should show a little less selfishness towards those who have not had such fortune.
Seniority lists are a bad thing as they reduce terms and conditions for all, including in the companies with the lists. They trap workforces so that the companies can reduce pay, leave and other perks without the fear of an exodus of staff. Get rid of the lists industry wide and we would see quick and significant pay rises across the board as the airlines attempt to hold onto their staff, especially the worse ones. Every pilot would win, except those at the top of the lists who might have to share some of the less pleasant routes or no get first choice of leave every time.
Seniority lists are a bad thing as they reduce terms and conditions for all, including in the companies with the lists. They trap workforces so that the companies can reduce pay, leave and other perks without the fear of an exodus of staff. Get rid of the lists industry wide and we would see quick and significant pay rises across the board as the airlines attempt to hold onto their staff, especially the worse ones. Every pilot would win, except those at the top of the lists who might have to share some of the less pleasant routes or no get first choice of leave every time.
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Seniority lists are a bad thing as they reduce terms and conditions for all, including in the companies with the lists.
Alloy dealer, I wish! Quite the contrary. I spent the first half of my career as an expatriate F/O and later Captain in some fairly hostile places and did time as a pilot union rep. Also time on the other side of the table in chief pilot roles. I survived one major revolution that saw the national flag carrier lay off all expats, and two airline bankruptcies since. I have been accepted as a DEC into more than one company, but only where the F/O experience base was lacking for what was needed at the time.
Now I only work part time - mostly training - and will no doubt cease to do that as soon as there is someone within the regular ranks with the necessary experience to take it over. Which is only right when one thinks about succession and all that.
I merely speak on the subject of seniority from a position of what I see as fair play. Having seen various abuses when nothing is formalized.
But seniority or otherwise is like religion - people tailor it to fit their circumstances.
Now I only work part time - mostly training - and will no doubt cease to do that as soon as there is someone within the regular ranks with the necessary experience to take it over. Which is only right when one thinks about succession and all that.
I merely speak on the subject of seniority from a position of what I see as fair play. Having seen various abuses when nothing is formalized.
But seniority or otherwise is like religion - people tailor it to fit their circumstances.
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Denti, you're right that the companies with lists are typically paying more than those without. That's the point - if they didn't have the lists, then those in the lower paying companies would be more mobile and vote with their feet. Those companies would have to up their terms to retain their staff, and the legacies would ultimately go up to to stay ahead. It's about making market forces work for the pilots, not the companies.
Mach, your experience makes your position all the more puzzling to me. I can see the case for rewarding loyalty (shame insurance and home energy companies don't, hey?), but I don't see why airline pilots should be the one profession which should be punished for not being lucky with their first job position giving them a cushy and safe career. A little more migration might do wonders for safety, too, spreading benefits from each airlines' best operating practices around.
Mach, your experience makes your position all the more puzzling to me. I can see the case for rewarding loyalty (shame insurance and home energy companies don't, hey?), but I don't see why airline pilots should be the one profession which should be punished for not being lucky with their first job position giving them a cushy and safe career. A little more migration might do wonders for safety, too, spreading benefits from each airlines' best operating practices around.
