Iberia to Lose 4500 jobs - 25 airframes
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CB300:
Your profile suggests that you are an expat living in Texas. Whilst you may have ties to Spain I think your comments are frivolous. The state of affairs is such that many workers are in wage receipt arrears of about 3 months on average and if their income depends on local government contracts, 6-9 months. To add insult to injury they are still expected to pay taxes on that (unreceived) income on time! In other words, everyone has to rob Peter to pay Paul.
Spain's incumbent govt. may be a Lame duck but that's because the last govt. left them with a huge amount of debts. Politics in Spain revolves around theft; they all do it. The difference is that the socialists borrowed, thieved and spent to buy votes; the PP (generally) make money, thieve and cut spending. Only one of those is sustainable.
The Spanish, in my opinion, got what they deserved: They voted in a govt based on a terrorist incident because "Zapatito" promised to pull troops out of Iraq. It will never be known WHO really planted those bombs because the trains were destroyed 2 days later. Incredible isn't it. I went to Farnborough in 1995 and saw the Maid Of The Seas (well, the bit where the bomb went off) and that was some 7 years after the event.
Back to Iberia. Iberia, some time back now, had a cost cutting plan which the unions have hindered at every turn. The unions have had many chances now to develop a working relationship with Iberia. Don't be fooled, SEPLA have realised that it's serious now but they are trying to negotiate terms under previous targets. Previous targets were valid 5 years ago, not now.
SEPLA can spout as much rubbish as they like about BA wanting to ruin Iberia; it's simply not true. IAG's plans were to use Iberia's resources and expand on a (almost) exclusive market. The SA market is quite big and IAG would have a great foothold in Europe. However, there is so much competition in Europe, it cannot compete. A standalone LH carrier needs feeder airlines or to operate from a very large hub (like Virgin).
Your profile suggests that you are an expat living in Texas. Whilst you may have ties to Spain I think your comments are frivolous. The state of affairs is such that many workers are in wage receipt arrears of about 3 months on average and if their income depends on local government contracts, 6-9 months. To add insult to injury they are still expected to pay taxes on that (unreceived) income on time! In other words, everyone has to rob Peter to pay Paul.
Spain's incumbent govt. may be a Lame duck but that's because the last govt. left them with a huge amount of debts. Politics in Spain revolves around theft; they all do it. The difference is that the socialists borrowed, thieved and spent to buy votes; the PP (generally) make money, thieve and cut spending. Only one of those is sustainable.
The Spanish, in my opinion, got what they deserved: They voted in a govt based on a terrorist incident because "Zapatito" promised to pull troops out of Iraq. It will never be known WHO really planted those bombs because the trains were destroyed 2 days later. Incredible isn't it. I went to Farnborough in 1995 and saw the Maid Of The Seas (well, the bit where the bomb went off) and that was some 7 years after the event.
Back to Iberia. Iberia, some time back now, had a cost cutting plan which the unions have hindered at every turn. The unions have had many chances now to develop a working relationship with Iberia. Don't be fooled, SEPLA have realised that it's serious now but they are trying to negotiate terms under previous targets. Previous targets were valid 5 years ago, not now.
SEPLA can spout as much rubbish as they like about BA wanting to ruin Iberia; it's simply not true. IAG's plans were to use Iberia's resources and expand on a (almost) exclusive market. The SA market is quite big and IAG would have a great foothold in Europe. However, there is so much competition in Europe, it cannot compete. A standalone LH carrier needs feeder airlines or to operate from a very large hub (like Virgin).
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Nothing is to be assumed....
Im a texan and spanish national too. Been here for 50 years.
Im speaking for a lot of pilot companions ive shared years flying over the globe with....our deep concern is not IB and its restructure but that IAG IS AUTHORIZED BY OUR GOVERNMENT TO LAY OFF SO MANY PEOPLE LEAVING THEM NO LEGAL RECOURSE.
I agree, IB is a victim of its own greed, but never shared the booty with the grand majority of the workforce ( pilots aside )
Im speaking for a lot of pilot companions ive shared years flying over the globe with....our deep concern is not IB and its restructure but that IAG IS AUTHORIZED BY OUR GOVERNMENT TO LAY OFF SO MANY PEOPLE LEAVING THEM NO LEGAL RECOURSE.
I agree, IB is a victim of its own greed, but never shared the booty with the grand majority of the workforce ( pilots aside )
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Relightengine:
You obviously have no idea about this matter.I mean Sepla's offers during the negotiations and not spanish politics(sic).
I will try and post some more about this,kind of hard as all the original material is in spanish.
I could gladly take criticism about my current/future T&C's from a pilot "slumming it" in any of the low-cost sweatshops that are becoming the norm...but from a BA pilot?.Haha,c'mon!.
You obviously have no idea about this matter.I mean Sepla's offers during the negotiations and not spanish politics(sic).
I will try and post some more about this,kind of hard as all the original material is in spanish.
I could gladly take criticism about my current/future T&C's from a pilot "slumming it" in any of the low-cost sweatshops that are becoming the norm...but from a BA pilot?.Haha,c'mon!.
Last edited by Aporrizaje; 1st Feb 2013 at 17:10.
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PPrune has several "Trolls".
"The Range" is another one. Read his other contributions to guage his knowledge and intelligence.
His classic comment
"Why low cost airlines seem to have such a good safety record?
Because autopilots today are very good."
Says it all really.
"The Range" is another one. Read his other contributions to guage his knowledge and intelligence.
His classic comment
"Why low cost airlines seem to have such a good safety record?
Because autopilots today are very good."
Says it all really.
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Ahh,the media...which media?.Spanish media,british media,the media you sir particularly consider pravda?.I guess it is not the same media that has been publishing all that BS about the (evergrowing) BA pensions deficit?.
(Some jokester posted in this thread that the deficit was a "paltry" sum and no concern at all.Sure,whatever,time will tell i'm afraid.)
The negotiations for these past two years have been a comedy.Even the government appointed mediators(Pimentel,Montalvo) commented on Sepla's flexibility and good disposition vs IB's(IAG...) apparent apathy and lack of interest.
They never wanted to reach an agreement,period.
Read that last phrase twice as this is a Walsh strategy that you might be facing in the near future.
"But we sacrificed!!!,we are so chummy with Willie!!!"... maybe in LaLa land,but not here in the real world ,unless you are cheaper than Vueling,RyR etc.
I do not write this with any glee,wish the best for BA pilots as a whole even if some of the posters here deserve otherwise.
Feel free to point the righteous finger at Sepla if it makes you feel cozy and safe,or read the writing on the wall and prepare.Your choice.
The merger is rearing it's ugly absorption head,as predicted.I cannot understand why BA pilots get their knickers in a twist about this matter.After all you are just airplane drivers,like us,and you did not make this merger happen.Nobody is accusing you of anything untoward,ok?.
The bully,steam roller manner in which events are unfolding is Mr.Walsh's doing,with the enthusiastic support of his spanish minions.
(Some jokester posted in this thread that the deficit was a "paltry" sum and no concern at all.Sure,whatever,time will tell i'm afraid.)
The negotiations for these past two years have been a comedy.Even the government appointed mediators(Pimentel,Montalvo) commented on Sepla's flexibility and good disposition vs IB's(IAG...) apparent apathy and lack of interest.
They never wanted to reach an agreement,period.
Read that last phrase twice as this is a Walsh strategy that you might be facing in the near future.
"But we sacrificed!!!,we are so chummy with Willie!!!"... maybe in LaLa land,but not here in the real world ,unless you are cheaper than Vueling,RyR etc.
I do not write this with any glee,wish the best for BA pilots as a whole even if some of the posters here deserve otherwise.
Feel free to point the righteous finger at Sepla if it makes you feel cozy and safe,or read the writing on the wall and prepare.Your choice.
The merger is rearing it's ugly absorption head,as predicted.I cannot understand why BA pilots get their knickers in a twist about this matter.After all you are just airplane drivers,like us,and you did not make this merger happen.Nobody is accusing you of anything untoward,ok?.
The bully,steam roller manner in which events are unfolding is Mr.Walsh's doing,with the enthusiastic support of his spanish minions.
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The Range
I too would like IB to have our contracts. As far as I'm concerned they are my colleagues, they have always been very good to me when I have commuted home and I have left my card with them whenever I had any so I could return the favour if they ever travelled on BA aircraft.
It isn't as easy as that, though. c'mon. They are losing 1.7m€ a day, BA don't; Madrid is not Heathrow; Iberia have all their eggs in one basket, BA do not; we have an Asian market (growing if they can get their visa problem sorted) and a huge US market. We struggle on SH for the same reasons IB do in Europe but that is being addressed.
Look, the aviation market is changing BIG TIME. I know that the microscope will be on us again and that they will be looking to cut the fat wherever they can. It's coming, we know it and we are going to take a hit. In real terms we are working much harder for (effectively) less money as it is and in order to draw the same pension I was projected to draw when I joined, I have to work 10 years more AND put more money away in order to achieve it.
As far as I know an IB pilot works (about) 600 - 650 hrs a yr (is this right?). Every month BA publish a list of pilots who are getting very close (within 120 hrs) to 900hrs in a rolling 11 month period!. It's called (strangely) the 900hr report. Up until BMI made its presence felt the list was quite long in some months. Even in Jan of this yr the 747 had 115 names and the 777 had 74 names on it. That's just the copilots. The airbus has 3 names on it but you're doing "well' if you can get on that list on SH. And that's precisely what EJ and FRA do; they do "well". That's what we're up against.
Aporrizaje:
I don't have as much idea as you, granted. Personally I can read Spanish perfectly well but others will not, so publish in English if you prefer. What I'm saying is that SEPLA have not given up one iota of their T&C's since being privatised; they have not adapted to the changing market and they have not seen the storm coming. They have not been helped by an inadequate management who can be accused of a similar attitude. Unfortunately for SEPLA they didn't count on being owned by a multinational company with a management who doesn't go in for the easy life and the perks and the backhanders: they are in it to make money and (thereby) provide jobs. Previously the managers in IB all knew who owned them; the bank managers and government officials; they played golf together and had paellas at the weekend in each others' houses; they had summer villas next to each other and their kids played together while the wives had coffee mornings; the burden of the company was borne by the bank's customers and whilst Spain was on a high and it wasn't hemorrhaging too much money... it was cava and prawns all round. I've said it before and I'll say it again: They (the Spanish in general) want to be big players in the world but they are a new kid on the block and way out of their depth in some areas. The attitudes of CC.OO and UGT and in this case SEPLA are not compatible with the way the world works. SEPLA are (by far) the best of the 3 but they haven't had to deal with REAL capitalists before now.
CB300
Yes, but what is the alternative? The Spanish govt would rather have a working national airline (money generating, tax paying) albeit with a reduced workforce than a millstone around their neck which requires (both illegal - except in the US and France
- and hard to justify before the people of Spain) periodic cash injection. There simply is not the cash even if under fair competition laws, Rajoy was able to do it.
I too would like IB to have our contracts. As far as I'm concerned they are my colleagues, they have always been very good to me when I have commuted home and I have left my card with them whenever I had any so I could return the favour if they ever travelled on BA aircraft.
It isn't as easy as that, though. c'mon. They are losing 1.7m€ a day, BA don't; Madrid is not Heathrow; Iberia have all their eggs in one basket, BA do not; we have an Asian market (growing if they can get their visa problem sorted) and a huge US market. We struggle on SH for the same reasons IB do in Europe but that is being addressed.
Look, the aviation market is changing BIG TIME. I know that the microscope will be on us again and that they will be looking to cut the fat wherever they can. It's coming, we know it and we are going to take a hit. In real terms we are working much harder for (effectively) less money as it is and in order to draw the same pension I was projected to draw when I joined, I have to work 10 years more AND put more money away in order to achieve it.
As far as I know an IB pilot works (about) 600 - 650 hrs a yr (is this right?). Every month BA publish a list of pilots who are getting very close (within 120 hrs) to 900hrs in a rolling 11 month period!. It's called (strangely) the 900hr report. Up until BMI made its presence felt the list was quite long in some months. Even in Jan of this yr the 747 had 115 names and the 777 had 74 names on it. That's just the copilots. The airbus has 3 names on it but you're doing "well' if you can get on that list on SH. And that's precisely what EJ and FRA do; they do "well". That's what we're up against.
Aporrizaje:
I don't have as much idea as you, granted. Personally I can read Spanish perfectly well but others will not, so publish in English if you prefer. What I'm saying is that SEPLA have not given up one iota of their T&C's since being privatised; they have not adapted to the changing market and they have not seen the storm coming. They have not been helped by an inadequate management who can be accused of a similar attitude. Unfortunately for SEPLA they didn't count on being owned by a multinational company with a management who doesn't go in for the easy life and the perks and the backhanders: they are in it to make money and (thereby) provide jobs. Previously the managers in IB all knew who owned them; the bank managers and government officials; they played golf together and had paellas at the weekend in each others' houses; they had summer villas next to each other and their kids played together while the wives had coffee mornings; the burden of the company was borne by the bank's customers and whilst Spain was on a high and it wasn't hemorrhaging too much money... it was cava and prawns all round. I've said it before and I'll say it again: They (the Spanish in general) want to be big players in the world but they are a new kid on the block and way out of their depth in some areas. The attitudes of CC.OO and UGT and in this case SEPLA are not compatible with the way the world works. SEPLA are (by far) the best of the 3 but they haven't had to deal with REAL capitalists before now.
CB300
Yes, but what is the alternative? The Spanish govt would rather have a working national airline (money generating, tax paying) albeit with a reduced workforce than a millstone around their neck which requires (both illegal - except in the US and France
- and hard to justify before the people of Spain) periodic cash injection. There simply is not the cash even if under fair competition laws, Rajoy was able to do it.
Last edited by relightengine; 2nd Feb 2013 at 08:39.
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Yes Blu Riband, autopilots are very good. That is why in the future the flight crew will consist of one pilot and a dog. The dog being there to make sure the pilot does not touch the controls.
The post from Aporrizaje shows as I have mentioned before long ago in this thread, that there was never any hope of a settlement between Walsh and the Iberia unions. The course set is exactly the same scenario faced by BA cabin crew. What is going on at Iberia is union busting. It is like a Titanic situation, but without the fog.
Now the pilot trolls from BA will line up critcising the cabin crew union, but they don't seem to be able to get it into their heads that even with the cost savings offered by BASSA analysed by Price Waterhouse Coopers, there was still confrontation. It was never going to be enough. I am sure Iberia pilots share the irony of this feeling of deja vu.
Someone posted earlier that Iberia unions have not been exposed to the same sort of Capitalism that employees in other countries have faced. This is not true. What is true is that the type of extreme Capitalism as expoused by Walsh, is one where winner takes all. It does seem that the fortunes of Iberia have taken a turn for the worse since IAG started running the business. It would not have suited the management game plan at all if the airline was shown to be profitable. Luck is on the side of IAG with the prevailing economic conditions in Spain. Yet Iberia does not have the structural pension liabilties of BA, so in balance it is in a far healthier condition.
At least Iberia staff have not planned to be stupid enough to scab on each other, so that when it is finally over the airline is not deeply scarred from the dispute. This is the legacy at BA, and in spite of BA pilots here making the best of the the very low esteem in which they are held by most of the airline's cabin crew, the reality is they are treated like a Leper colony.
Iberia staff face a very tough battle. If you offer a 25% pay cut and it is still not enough, you know that it is not all about money.
The post from Aporrizaje shows as I have mentioned before long ago in this thread, that there was never any hope of a settlement between Walsh and the Iberia unions. The course set is exactly the same scenario faced by BA cabin crew. What is going on at Iberia is union busting. It is like a Titanic situation, but without the fog.
Now the pilot trolls from BA will line up critcising the cabin crew union, but they don't seem to be able to get it into their heads that even with the cost savings offered by BASSA analysed by Price Waterhouse Coopers, there was still confrontation. It was never going to be enough. I am sure Iberia pilots share the irony of this feeling of deja vu.
Someone posted earlier that Iberia unions have not been exposed to the same sort of Capitalism that employees in other countries have faced. This is not true. What is true is that the type of extreme Capitalism as expoused by Walsh, is one where winner takes all. It does seem that the fortunes of Iberia have taken a turn for the worse since IAG started running the business. It would not have suited the management game plan at all if the airline was shown to be profitable. Luck is on the side of IAG with the prevailing economic conditions in Spain. Yet Iberia does not have the structural pension liabilties of BA, so in balance it is in a far healthier condition.
At least Iberia staff have not planned to be stupid enough to scab on each other, so that when it is finally over the airline is not deeply scarred from the dispute. This is the legacy at BA, and in spite of BA pilots here making the best of the the very low esteem in which they are held by most of the airline's cabin crew, the reality is they are treated like a Leper colony.
Iberia staff face a very tough battle. If you offer a 25% pay cut and it is still not enough, you know that it is not all about money.
Last edited by Count Niemantznarr; 2nd Feb 2013 at 15:17.
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so that when it is finally over the airline is not deeply scarred from the dispute
Last edited by 4468; 2nd Feb 2013 at 15:31.
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Apparently DH is to be a guest speaker at Bedfont next week.
I think our Count is just gargling to give his larynx some excercise beforehand and practising to see what will go down well with the lemmings - just soundbites from the unemployable
I think our Count is just gargling to give his larynx some excercise beforehand and practising to see what will go down well with the lemmings - just soundbites from the unemployable
the reality is they are treated like a Leper colony.
However from recent publications it would seem the hardliners (some current Reps and also perhaps one former Union Reps) are trying their best to make it so.
Last edited by wiggy; 2nd Feb 2013 at 17:07.
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Yet Iberia does not have the structural pension liabilties of BA, so in balance it is in a far healthier condition.
if that is the depth of your business understanding then I hope you have good fortune finding work in photography or suchlike.
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"Under Spanish law, the unions have to operate 60 per cent of the flight schedule while on strike, pointed out Dónal O’Neill, an aviation analyst at Goodbody. “We expect IAG will be able to secure wet leased aircraft and crews without much difficulty such that it can maintain a close to full level of service,” he added."
Not a very strong position for the unions...
Not a very strong position for the unions...
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